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Melina Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys,
i just recently overlooked some stats and i'm kinda upset about the current state of pirate ships. Almost all pirate ships were given a huge buff in the last expension, but gallente were nerfed duo to the vigilant nerf and didn't receive anything.
So if we get a rattlesneak and a vindicator, we fit them both t2, both ships have around 1500k dps. The difference is, the rattlesnake has those dps at 110km range and has alot more tank.
How can this be? Gallente are supposed to be the faction with the highest damage output, but recently everything gets buffed around them and they keep falling behind more and more. Gallente pirate ships have a reputation of being kickass, but the truth is that they would lose every 1vs1 against their brothers in the pirate section.
I just can't settle with the fact, that some Guristas Pirate Ship is doing the same damageoutput with missiles and drones at a huge range having rediculous tank then a damage speciallised Gallente blaster and drones focused ship which a very short range and a comparable weak tank.
What do you guys think about the current state of gallente ships?
(I left out the webbonus discussion, because mostly its strong against ships of smaller classes or kiting setups, but not when it comes down to pure 1vs1 brawl in your face actions, where gallente are supposed to be better... well not anymore) |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9081
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Vigilant got nerfed, and imo unjustly so, but idk what the heck you're talking about with the rest of them.
The Rattlesnake can, yes, project it's dps to a greater distance. But not with any application bonuses. So it is as good by itself as it is in a fleet. All it brings is it's damage.
A vindicator on the other hand brings a lot to a small group that intends to fight at close range. It doesn't just make itself better, it makes every other ship in your fleet better at shooting the webbed target. That counts for plenty when it comes to balancing out the respective ships. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Melina Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The Vigilant got nerfed, and imo unjustly so, but idk what the heck you're talking about with the rest of them.
The Rattlesnake can, yes, project it's dps to a greater distance. But not with any application bonuses. So it is as good by itself as it is in a fleet. All it brings is it's damage.
A vindicator on the other hand brings a lot to a small group that intends to fight at close range. It doesn't just make itself better, it makes every other ship in your fleet better at shooting the webbed target. That counts for plenty when it comes to balancing out the respective ships.
The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1482
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again. |
Melina Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again.
Again, i wasn't talking about the fleet aspect, just about the fact that if you throw a vindi against e.g. a rattle, that the vindi has no chance of winning that fight at all. None. Not at 2km range and not at 80km range. Same goes for the Vigilant and comparable ships. |
Fr3akwave
Shattered Sword
27
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
And i was not talking about the fleetaspecs, i was just comparing the single ships: - 900% less range with equal dps - Unchangable damage types - Alot weaker tank
Does that sound balanced to you?
If you entirely leave out the other ship's strength (which is the unmatched ability to tackle stuff) then this comparison indeed looks unbalanced.
90% webs are one of the strongest EWAR you can get, and quite certainly the best in the tackle-field. Ignoring fleet aspects entirely is still kind of a wonky move, because some ships are designed to be useful for fleets. 1v1 stat comparison is something that does not work in eve because eve is in the rarest case a 1v1 thing. |
Grimpak
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
2271
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 10:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again.
Hello eve-o forumites, look at your ship, now back to gallente, now back at your ship, now back to gallente. Sadly, she isnGÇÖt gallente, but if she stopped being abused like the poor dog she is and you switched back to Gallente, you could could fly awesome ships like the Megathron. Look down, back up, where are you? YouGÇÖre on a Vindicator with your gangmates webbing **** left and right and killing it with high powered blasters. WhatGÇÖs in your hand, back at gallente. I have it, itGÇÖs a pod with two Blue Oyster tickets to become a true gallente. Look again, the tickets are now fabulous diamonds. Anything is possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari.
IGÇÖm on a horse. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Melina Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fr3akwave wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
And i was not talking about the fleetaspecs, i was just comparing the single ships: - 900% less range with equal dps - Unchangable damage types - Alot weaker tank
Does that sound balanced to you?
If you entirely leave out the other ship's strength (which is the unmatched ability to tackle stuff) then this comparison indeed looks unbalanced. 90% webs are one of the strongest EWAR you can get, and quite certainly the best in the tackle-field. Ignoring fleet aspects entirely is still kind of a wonky move, because some ships are designed to be useful for fleets. 1v1 stat comparison is something that does not work in eve because eve is in the rarest case a 1v1 thing.
It doesnt eve have to be 1vs1.... take a brawlfleet against another one. The web bonus wouldn't change a thing, still Gallente which are supposed to have a greater damage output fall behind. Because they don't have that higher damageoutput anymore, where other classes get to have alot higher range and tank. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
6761
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again. Hello eve-o forumites, look at your ship, now back to gallente, now back at your ship, now back to gallente. Sadly, she isnGÇÖt gallente, but if she stopped being abused like the poor dog she is and you switched back to Gallente, you could could fly awesome ships like the Megathron. Look down, back up, where are you? YouGÇÖre on a Vindicator with your gangmates webbing **** left and right and killing it with high powered blasters. WhatGÇÖs in your hand, back at gallente. I have it, itGÇÖs a pod with two Blue Oyster tickets to become a true gallente. Look again, the tickets are now fabulous diamonds. Anything is possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari. IGÇÖm on a horse.
Hi. I am a surprise falcon that just decloaked at a safe range.
You were saying something about anything being possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari? Try shooting me now. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Grimpak
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
2273
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Grimpak wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again. Hello eve-o forumites, look at your ship, now back to gallente, now back at your ship, now back to gallente. Sadly, she isnGÇÖt gallente, but if she stopped being abused like the poor dog she is and you switched back to Gallente, you could could fly awesome ships like the Megathron. Look down, back up, where are you? YouGÇÖre on a Vindicator with your gangmates webbing **** left and right and killing it with high powered blasters. WhatGÇÖs in your hand, back at gallente. I have it, itGÇÖs a pod with two Blue Oyster tickets to become a true gallente. Look again, the tickets are now fabulous diamonds. Anything is possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari. IGÇÖm on a horse. Hi. I am a surprise falcon that just decloaked at a safe range. You were saying something about anything being possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari? Try shooting me now. *falls from the horse* [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
6761
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Alpheias wrote:Grimpak wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Melina Saraki wrote: The rattle fits 1-2 target painters, and here we are.
Unbonused, also note how many Pirate ships use Gallente skills. Then note how many each other race has. Then look at your complaint. And possibly think again. Hello eve-o forumites, look at your ship, now back to gallente, now back at your ship, now back to gallente. Sadly, she isnGÇÖt gallente, but if she stopped being abused like the poor dog she is and you switched back to Gallente, you could could fly awesome ships like the Megathron. Look down, back up, where are you? YouGÇÖre on a Vindicator with your gangmates webbing **** left and right and killing it with high powered blasters. WhatGÇÖs in your hand, back at gallente. I have it, itGÇÖs a pod with two Blue Oyster tickets to become a true gallente. Look again, the tickets are now fabulous diamonds. Anything is possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari. IGÇÖm on a horse. Hi. I am a surprise falcon that just decloaked at a safe range. You were saying something about anything being possible when your ship is Gallente and not Caldari? Try shooting me now. *falls from the horse*
Caldari, ruining your day since 2003. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
66726
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
If this game was supposed to be balanced around honour 1v1s then Fozzie and Rise are doing a really bad job.
Also
*warps in with an ishtar, deploys drones and blaps the falcon*
Welcome to ishtar online. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Fr3akwave
Shattered Sword
27
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Posted - 2014.08.24 10:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Melina Saraki wrote:Fr3akwave wrote: If you entirely leave out the other ship's strength (which is the unmatched ability to tackle stuff) then this comparison indeed looks unbalanced.
90% webs are one of the strongest EWAR you can get, and quite certainly the best in the tackle-field. Ignoring fleet aspects entirely is still kind of a wonky move, because some ships are designed to be useful for fleets. 1v1 stat comparison is something that does not work in eve because eve is in the rarest case a 1v1 thing.
It doesnt eve have to be 1vs1.... take a brawlfleet against another one. The web bonus wouldn't change a thing, still Gallente which are supposed to have a greater damage output fall behind. Because they don't have that higher damageoutput anymore, where other classes get to have alot higher range and tank.
That is absolutely not a realistic case. The vindicator is not a ship you pick up in big amounts and pack them into a fleet. A fleet needs a couple of them as support, not more. In big fleet battles, the rattlesnake is superior because it is suited for large scale doctrines, while on the other hand, have you ever seen rattlesnakes run incursion sites? No? Ive seen entire fleets of vindicators faceroll them like no other. The serpentis (they are actually angel ships ;) ) ship line has an exceptional potential to make smaller ship classes easy targets, matched by no other ship in eve.
Widen your field of view to more than just a single kind of ship vs another single kind of ship. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
6761
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 10:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:If this game was supposed to be balanced around honour 1v1s then Fozzie and Rise are doing a really bad job.
Also
*warps in with an ishtar, deploys drones and blaps the falcon*
Welcome to ishtar online.
*warps in six gilas, two rattlesnakes and another falcon*
Didn't want that falcon anyway. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Grimpak
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
2273
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 10:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
all of this because OP wanted 2 Blue Oyster tickets [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
275
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 11:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vindicator is much preferred over Rattlesnake for incursions. Also, the Rattlesnake is half Gallente too you know, just like the Vindi. As are the Worm and Gila, which are also amazing ships. Gallente and drones are the way to go at the moment. |
Melina Saraki
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 11:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Unezka Turigahl wrote:Vindicator is much preferred over Rattlesnake for incursions. Also, the Rattlesnake is half Gallente too you know, just like the Vindi. As are the Worm and Gila, which are also amazing ships. Gallente and drones are the way to go at the moment.
Well, i probably should have been more clear about the kind of pirate faction, i was talking about sepentis, mainly. And i was seeing the pvp aspect.
I just don't get it how they have the same damageoutput now. Rattle has so much more range and tank (which increases rediculously if fitting deadspace mods) on the other hand the vindi even loses dps duo to the fact that it has to downgrade weapons if its gonna be active tanked...
It just doesn't fit anymore. Ships which were supposed to be doing decent damage over huge ranges get to have the same or (active tank comp. more) damage than very low range ships which were created to have less tank, less range and simply higher damage. |
Cap ITal
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 11:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
the op is correct. we can dance about this ins and outs of the subject but in the end he is right. serp ships are underpowered. they all need 1 of three things. either a huge boost to tank or a huge boost to damage. or a bonus to web range that gets those awesome webs out to like 25km on a t2 webs. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
454
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 12:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Interesting question and some seem to blow it off so let's ask a different one.
A group of pirate ships in a fleet... You're an FC - which hulls do you prioritize first?
That rattler would be pretty far down the list with respect to pirate hulls for most FC's. Not that it isn't effective but it's a pretty cheap killmail compared to most other hulls. That vindi though... it's still seen as a solid threat and the price-tag on it can offset lossmails nicely.
So what priority would you put on which hull? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1135
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 12:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's actually tricky to get 1500 DPS out of a rattler at 110 km. You need all five launchers which only leaves room for a single DLA II so your drone control range can be an issue. You can get 1500 DPS at 95km easy ... 110 km is pushing the envelope a bit, you will need rigs.
Not that it effects the original point .. 95km or 110 km is still outranging a Vindi ... but just saying. |
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NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2014.08.24 13:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
I agree with you that they fail at balance. They completely **** all over and ruined the Rattlensnakes versatility to give it more DPS. I have yet to see CCP Rise make a change to his awful balance changes due to player feedback.
Disgusting that they took so much away from a ship that takes so long to train and was never considered OP. |
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 14:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:It's actually tricky to get 1500 DPS out of a rattler at 110 km. You need all five launchers which only leaves room for a single DLA II so your drone control range can be an issue. You can get 1500 DPS at 95km easy ... 110 km is pushing the envelope a bit, you will need rigs.
Not that it effects the original point .. 95km or 110 km is still outranging a Vindi ... but just saying.
You don't actually get the DPS that is listed on the fitting window. This is because of the Rattlesnakes non-existant damage application bonuses. People who like to act like the Rattlesnake is some amazing DPS ship are fooling themselves. There really is no good reason to play it now since other ships do what it does better and its versatility has been gutted. |
Liam Inkuras
Top Belt Heroes Black Rise Police Department
1256
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 15:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vigilant didn't get nerfed, in fact it got a huge buff in terms of speed and lock range. Just because you can't fit your outdated 1600mm plate + 5 neutron setup doesn't mean it got nerfed. The Vigi is now a very viable Railgun boat because of it's increased lock range and speed. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4267
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Posted - 2014.08.24 15:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thread is now 'Because of Falcon - 2014 Edition'. |
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
51
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Posted - 2014.08.24 16:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Rise has no clue about balance.
Period.
It doesn't go any further than that. He's failed to address some long standing issues and seems to have based his own balancing actions on intuition and feeling vs graphs and logic.
This is why we have drones online, why missiles are so out of whack vs turrets and why in turret land, no one has even looked at scorch > all.
Get in a drone boat if you want to accomplish something in Eve today.
If you have a very specific application, you might be able to find a good role for the other ships.... just hope you don't run into any drone boats. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain." |
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2014.08.24 16:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:CCP Rise has no clue about balance.
Period.
It doesn't go any further than that. He's failed to address some long standing issues and seems to have based his own balancing actions on intuition and feeling vs graphs and logic.
I agree. He is horrible. He destroyed a playstyle on the Rattlesnake that was unique to ships in EVE. A passive shield-tanked torpedo fit that primarily used the optimal light and medium drone types and sometimes Warden IIs. Now torpedoes are no longer viable in most missions due to loss of missile velocity bonus and a -225m3 reduction in drone bay space means I can't carry the optimal medium or light drone type I want to use.
You can use a Gecko now to replace the loss of medium drones but its a heavy micromanagement burden since you can only lock 7 targets on a RS and have to lock each frigate and cruiser individually and then command the gecko on each individual target you want them to die before Battleships because the heavy drone AI on the gecko makes it always prioritize Battleships first, and usually the trigger. Gecko also does a terrible job at replacing bonused light drones.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3076
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Posted - 2014.08.24 17:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:CCP Rise has no clue about balance.
Period.
It doesn't go any further than that. He's failed to address some long standing issues and seems to have based his own balancing actions on intuition and feeling vs graphs and logic.
Agreed. Most of what I have seen from Rise sadly strikes me as tinkering or playing. "i advice you to go spit on the back of someone else because you are fall on the wrong horse." - Meio Rayliegh |
Dave Stark
6765
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 17:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Melina Saraki wrote:I left out the webbonus discussion, because mostly its strong against ships of smaller classes or kiting setups, but not when it comes down to pure 1vs1 brawl in your face actions, where serpentis are supposed to be better... well not anymore
I'd like to talk to you about my dinner, and why it's not as good as yours.
it's an empty plate, i feel that's why it's not very good.
(i left the food out of the discussion because i felt it'd be appropriate to compare my plate to your cooked meal) |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
1305
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Posted - 2014.08.24 20:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
The Vigilant is not even a shadow of its former glory...no reasonable fit doable....and do not tell me to switch down from neutrons to electrons...thats a freacking abomination TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3463
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 23:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
The Vindicator projects damage at close range better than any HAC, and almost as well as some frigates.
Two Vindicator webs drops a hostile's speed to almost exactly 2%, which is equivalent to either increasing their sigrad by 4900%, or improving your own tracking by 4900%.
As long as it is stationary, a Vindicator can apply blaster damage to an afterburning frigate. The best any other battleship can do is a Dominix setting bonused medium drones onto the frigate.
For that reason, it's no problem that the Rattlesnake surpasses the Vindi at range. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
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