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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
387
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Posted - 2011.11.23 14:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Note: They're only giving us 2 weeks to load the towers up with new fuel blocks. So by Dec 13th, you will need to have prepared at least a few day's worth of new fuel pellets (or buy off the market).
I suggest doing a few days of ME research on your fuel BPOs starting on Nov 28th, producing a week's worth of fuel pellets, then go back to ME research for another few days. Make another week's worth of fuel pellets, then go back and finish out a few more days of ME/PE research on the BPO.
By Dec 11th-12th - you will want to have loaded at least 5-7 days worth of fuel pellets into all of your towers, but leave the rest of the fuel bay filled with the old-style fuel types. This is the so-called half-n-half approach. After the switchover happens (supposedly on Dec 13th), go out to your towers, remove the old-style fuel types, fill the tower up with the new fuel pellets. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
387
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 14:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Any chance we can get the BPOs seeded on Sisi?
Check Thukker Mix stations. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
387
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 15:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Knug LiDi wrote: The changes to the cost to produce reactions at POSs are very sensitive to operating costs, as our percentages are slim. I speak as someone who doesn't get the moon goo for free.
(Rehash of what I wrote up earlier in another thread.)
Approx prices per month using today's fuel consumption rates of the old-style fuels (and assuming full CPU/PG):
Amarr: 139 / 219 / 379 Caldari: 142 / 225 / 392 Gallente: 228 / 396 / 734 Minmatar: 144 / 228 / 397
How much of that is from HW/LOz? For the 3 tower sizes, using today's prices (HW 155, LOz 419), the HW/LOz costs are (in millions of ISK):
HW: 4.2 / 8.4 / 16.8 (CPU-driven) LOz: 11.5 / 22.6 / 45.3 (PG-driven)
Approx prices per month using the new fuel pellets with today's prices:
Amarr: 90 / 178 / 355 Caldari: 93 / 184 / 366 Gallente: 169 / 336 / 671 Minmatar: 94 / 186 / 371
The only towers at a risk of costing slightly more are large towers. The cost savings on small/medium towers far outstrip the amount of ISK added back to the 30-day fuel costs by increased HW/LOz needs.
For the Amarr Large Tower, they would have saved 24M per 30 days under the new fuel pellet ingredient list. If you were not using all of your CPU before this, you would still save about 8M/mo. If you were not using all of your PG, then you'll end up paying about 21M more per 30d. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
389
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 16:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Raid'En wrote: i think the biggest problem here is not the price, but the volume ; it will be a big change for people doing the hauling on nullsec, as ozone and water are close to 50% of the total volume of product needed currently. so for tower having very few modules onlined, this change will almost double the volume needed to haul the fuel. well in fact it would be more like 40-60% more, given blocks are a bit smaller than fuel items, but that's still a big change
m3/30d under the old system (assuming full PG/CPU):
68.2k / 133k / 257k
m3/30d from HW (if maxed out):
10.9k / 21.6k / 43.2k
m3/30d from LOz (if maxed out):
10.9k / 21.6k / 43.2k
m3/30d under the new system (10/20/40 blocks per hour, 5m3 each, 30*24 hours):
36k / 72k / 144k
So for a large tower, you probably had either CPU or PG maxed, with minimal of the other. So your haul volume goes from around 210-215k per 30d to 144k per 30d.
(I think... gotta check those numbers for the "after"). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
389
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 16:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:The 5 minute manufacturing time is still terrifyingly high; two manufacturing slot hours will be occupied for every individual large tower's operational day in Eve. There are an estimated 40,000 control towers up and running, which translates to 67 NPC stations worth of factory slots (50 slots each station), occupied 24 hours a day, 7 days a week just to keep up with the demand for POS fuel.
That sounds like a bit of an extreme, brand new source of demand for factory slots, don't you think? Evel, keep in mind, 5 minutes is the base amount. After industry V it's 4 minutes, and at a POS array, it's down to 3 minutes. Add in a bit of PE research, and you get it down to 2m30s easy enough. So one hour to assemble a month's worth of fuel. And building at component arrays, you can fit 10 assembly arrays at a small tower, 100 lines total. Should be easy enough to manage.
At 5 minutes per batch of 40, you have a 12:1 ratio of production vs consumption (30.5 days of fuel can be done in 2.54 days for a large tower).
My estimate was that you could easily drive that time down to about 3 minutes per batch (down to 2.5 minutes/batch at a POS array). Which is closer to a 20:1 or 24:1 ratio. So that 30.5 days of fuel can be done in about 1.27 days at a tower or 1.5-1.6 days at a station.
(I'm pretty sure you meant to say "one day to assemble a month's worth of fuel".) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 03:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fuel block BPOs still not seeded on Singularity. Definitely not showing up at Thukker Mix factories (not even the Minmatar Fuel Block BPO).
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/npc/Thukker_Mix/stations
(Research time for ME/PE research is 3h 20m as a base, which looks correct. Same ME time as the various Ammo BPOs such as EMP L. Base waste factor on the fuel block BPOs is 5% with a 300 max runs per BPC.) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 04:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dario Kaelenter wrote:And WHY would Thukker bother making fuel blocks for other races ... ok maybe they would still help Gallente but surely they would delay and avoid making similar product for Enemy races just to get their people a technological advantage
It does make one wonder - a suggestion might be (for the sellers of the fuel block BPOs):
Amarr Fuel Block BPO - HZO Refinery and Joint Harvesting Caldari Fuel Block BPO - Poksu Mineral Group and Ishukone Corporation Gallente Fuel Block BPO - Astral Mining and Material Acquisition Minmatar Fuel Block BPO - Thukker Mix and Minmatar Mining Corporation
(Based on corps that have L4 mining agents.) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
400
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 07:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nyla Skin wrote:question: is there a pos array where you can produce said fuel blocks? Ammo Array or Component Array
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
401
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 12:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nyla Skin wrote:Scrapyard bob: Is that knowledge or conjecture?
Since the BPOs have not been seeded on Sisi and will only show up on TQ on patch day, all we have to go off of is:
Quote:Fuel blocks can now be produced in Component Assembly Arrays as well as Ammunition Assembly Arrays
Straight from the latest devblog on the topic: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3143
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
409
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 18:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cynosurza wrote:So, I just want to confirm. The 10x increase in fuel usage in the tower, does not mean a 10x increase in regular POS fuel needed to make the block, because the requirements for making 1 run of 40 is the same as it was for making 1 run of 4, correct?
The materials for each batch are as originally listed - but the batch now makes 40 blocks instead of 4, and the standard towers consume 10/20/40 blocks per hour (instead of 1/2/4 per hour).
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
411
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Old vs new Consumption (assuming a ME40 BPO of the fuel blocks and Production Efficiency V skill):
Coolant - 2/4/8 to 2/4/8 Enriched Uranium - 1/2/4 to 1/2/4 Mech Parts - 2/3/5 to 1/2/4 Oxygen - 7/13/25 to 5/10/20 Robotics - 1/1/1 to 0.25/0.50/1.00 Heavy Water - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150 Isotopes - 113/225/450 to 100/200/400 Liquid Ozone - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150
So Mech Parts consumption went down. Oxygen went down. Robotics was even or down. Isotopes went down.
HW/LOz went up either a little or a lot, depending on how much CPU/PG you were using before (but HW/LOz are not that expensive in the big picture when compared to the PI-sourced fuels and the isotopes).
Research time on the new BPOs is 3d3h if you have Metallurgy V trained, otherwise 4d4h in a POS lab without any skill in Metallurgy. Perfect ME for the fuel BPOs is ME40. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
432
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 22:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agreed, pushing this off until the first or second week of January for the actually swap of fuel types would be a big benefit.
As for the small time operators - even with the current prices, they're not going to be much worse then what you were paying back when Isotopes were 600 ISK/u. Here's what you'll be paying per 30 days of POS fuel once we switch over to pellets:
Assumptions:
Coolant = 12500 Enr Uranium = 13500 Mech Parts = 12000 Oxygen = 500 Robotics = 90000 HW = 200 Isotopes = 500 Liq Oz = 420
Price per 30 days:
Small - 109M Medium - 216M Large - 430M
And that could go up/down by about 30M ISK (probably down, because I expect P2 to settle in around 11-12k ISK/u). At 430M, that would be a pellet price of around 14.9k/u. Pellet prices are currently much higher then that due to limited supply, speculation and profit-taking. Not many people are producing for the market yet (most of us are still doing ME/PE research). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
435
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:so wait, 40 blocks an hour???? why do i think that is 10 times more then it should be.
The original dev plan (a month ago?) was that towers would use: 1/2/4 blocks per hour for S/M/L and that a single batch of Fuel Block production would produce 4 blocks (with the ingredients being roughly equivalent to the existing large POS fuel ratio per hour). Block size was 50 m3.
We rightly pointed out that going with values that small would destroy the sov bonus and the faction tower fuel advantage.
So they raised the number by 10x, but also increased the amount made by the batch by 10x and decreased the size by 10x. So now towers will require 10/20/40 per hour, the batch makes 40 and the block size is now 5 m3.
...
Old vs new Consumption (assuming a ME40 BPO of the fuel blocks and Production Efficiency V skill):
Coolant - 2/4/8 to 2/4/8 Enriched Uranium - 1/2/4 to 1/2/4 Mech Parts - 2/3/5 to 1/2/4 Oxygen - 7/13/25 to 5/10/20 Robotics - 1/1/1 to 0.25/0.50/1.00 Heavy Water - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150 Isotopes - 113/225/450 to 100/200/400 Liquid Ozone - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150
(Not all towers burned a full load of HW/LOz. Most towers were all of one and maybe half of the other. Unless they were a hi-sec research tower in which case they probably burned very little LOz.) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
436
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 17:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pfaeron wrote:eveclient wrote:16:42:11 Notify You cannot place Gallente Fuel Block in this fuel bay Still can't put blocks into the tower. When is this going to be fixed? i.e. an eve-date. Lacking a date for when it will be fixed. When will you know when it will be fixed? i.e. a date for a date.
It requires a full patch day, not just a "client update". So, whenever the next patch day is. Which, given CCP's track history with follow-up patches, means that we might see it this coming Tuesday. (CCP has said already that "it's fixed" in other dev posts.)
In the meantime, keep making new fuel blocks (at least 2 weeks worth), but leave some old-style fuel on hand (probably 3-6 weeks worth) just in case the migration gets pushed out into the Jan 2012 timeframe. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
440
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 05:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Well, let's look at some current prices:
Coolant: 13000 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/coolant
Enriched Uranium: 13750 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/enriched_uranium
Mechanical Parts: 12000 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/mechanical_parts
Oxygen: 430 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/oxygen
Robotics: 80000 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/robotics
Heavy Water: 160 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/heavy_water
Isotopes: ~450 ISK
Liquid Ozone: 440 ISK http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/liquid_ozone
Which gives prices per 30-days of:
S: 104M ISK M: 206M ISK L: 409M ISK
Which is about what we were paying back in Oct 2011 prior to the PI tariffs being installed due to the higher fuel demands under the old system combined with the higher price of isotopes at the time. The new fuel blocks have less product in them, which offsets the PI tariff increase. And smart providers will figure out how to make their PI outputs cheaper so that they can get a higher premium while charging the same rate as those using less efficient setups.
The P1 products from PI have actually gone *down* this week in price, which is reducing the strain on the price of the upper tier products. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
441
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:CCP, if we could get firm dates for when we'll be able to add the fuel to the POS's and when the POS's will switch over to the new fuel, that would be much appreciated.
For the first thing - tomorrow, Tuesday Dec 6th at 12:30 EVE. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=470308#post470308
For the second - I would not be surprised if it was as early as next week (Dec 13th to Dec 15th). So before then, I strongly recommend that you have at least 1 week of fuel pellets on hand for every active tower. That's about 6000 pellets for a large, 3000 for a medium and 1500 pellets for a small, and you should get them loaded in this coming week as soon as the change goes live.
It takes 3d 3h to research the fuel block BPOs to ME40, at a POS lab, with Metallurgy V. Add another day for a bit of PE research and you still have plenty of time to get one researched. Plus, the waste on the BPOs is only 5%, so maybe you make a few thousand pellets with 5% waste to buy time, then put the BPO into research. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
442
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 04:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Scrapyard, so just to confirm, a large POS will use 40 blocks/hour?
Yes, if it's a non-faction tower and does not benefit from sov-discount.
10/20/40 blocks per hour for the standard towers (S/M/L) size. You can make a month's worth of large POS fuel in about 1.6 days in a component/ammo array at a POS tower (along with Industry V and PE 8-10). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
446
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Harudath wrote:40 blocks for a large tower? Not 4? At 24,000isk/block at the moment that's 650m a month to run a large tower. Unless prices go down, surely this will mean people leaving wormholes and small-time POS usage en masse? Its more than double the cost of before
Please go back and read the previous page: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=467626#post467626
Which gives prices per 30-days of:
S: 104M ISK M: 206M ISK L: 409M ISK
Fuel blocks are currently overpriced on the market due to low supply and unless the underlying PI/Ice products change value drastically, will probably end up costing around (409M / 30d / 24h / 40 blocks + 5% profit margin) = 14.9k ISK/block once the market stabilizes again. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
451
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 23:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Coolant 12.5k - 8/hr En Uranium 12.95k - 4/hr Mech Parts 10.8k - 4/hr Oxygen - 367 - 20/hr Robotics - 77.4k - 1/hr HW - 170 - 150/hr Isotopes - 443-480 - 400/hr LiqOz - 468 - 150/hr
Amarr: 101 / 201 / 400 - 13883 ISK/u Caldari: 104 / 206 / 410 - 14243 ISK/u Gallente: 174 / 347 / 692 - 24016 ISK/u Minmatar: 104 / 206 / 410 - 14252 ISK/u
ISK/30d - plus approx fuel block cost to make it yourself using the above prices (assumes Production Efficiency V and a ME 40 BPO). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
580
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 23:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Actually, I have a spreadsheet that pulls daily values from places like eve-marketdata and spits it out nice and pretty. |
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