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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
425
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Posted - 2014.09.08 17:40:00 -
[271] - Quote
Cearain wrote:One galmilitia argued that vp and plexes are irrelevant to the occupancy war. But between his claims versus ccps dev blogs and my own eyes I will believe the latter. Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree? You need the alt plexers to deal with the enemy alt plexers. That is how the game works. I don't blame anyone. I and many others just don't care for it.
It's a bit more complicated than "VP are irrelevant" and "alts don't matter".
First, XG's alt capping 100 plexes is irrelevant if those plexes did not contribute towards capturing a system. And no, random plexing backwater nowhereville systems DOESN'T MATTER to occupancy warfare for the most part. If and only if it's part of a dedicated campaign to conquer those systems does it make a real difference. See, if CalMil plexes up a non-station system away from the front lines, they get tasty tasty LPs and rack up some VPs. XG's alt then dies in a fire deplexing it, getting crap LP and the same VP. Net change - none. Even if CalMil plexed it all the way up to vulnerable with no opposition, it wouldn't matter unless the PvP focused crews came along and bashed the hub to take it. Which they'd only bother with if they wanted the space. Otherwise, it's better for CalMil to let GalMil alts deplex it down so they can keep getting the tasty tasty offensive LP instead of the crap defensive LP.
In short, LP farming via alts is indeed a thing. It happens on both sides. It's an isk/LP generating activity that has little to no impact on warzone control as measured by systems held. It may impact Tier, due to the impact of LP being leeched from the hubs, but that's a rather poor stand-in for warzone control as it's more accurately a reflection of economic incentives than actual player control of a warzone.
I also think you really underestimate the impact of the Kronos changes on plexing, as that alone made a huge difference in our warzone with respect to the amount of alt plexing pressure we were under. Which is why we deliberately made a push to get a buffer prior to the Kronos release. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 17:55:00 -
[272] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi makes a completely different argument. He argues that it is fine that most plexes are captured with alts. ...
Not even close,...There is an advantage to alt defensive tactics which imo is not the end of the world .
Are most plexes captured by these alts or not? One of XG's alts captured more plexes than his main. So we know that its true for him.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ive siad dozens of times that in the current iteration, NO systems have been taken by evasion tactics. .
This is vague. Are you claiming that no offensive plexing alt has ever contributed to the contested level of a system that was ultimately flipped? Or are you just saying offensive alts did not join in the bunker bust at the end? If its the first you are wrong. I know my alts contributed to the contested level of systems that were filpped. If its the latter your point is trivial.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Alt defensive plexing] ensures that systems only change hands if there is a concerted pvp push. .
Since defensive plexing alts are now so powerful it's often true that a system will reach a point where the offensive side must be able to have a blob that can hold the single system sufficiently long. They have to bring the blob in and force out the dplexing alts and any fleets that may come. This is the null sec junior aspect of faction war. If that is your thing you already have null sec. As I said before thats not really interesting to me. I think Faction war can and should be a war that is fought through pvp throughout the warzone. Again I don't think we disagree about how things work just whether the game is worth playing.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Such a ppush attracts a pvp response.
Unless the other side can not get a matching blob. In that case the system just falls. Sort of like several of the last Caldari systems.
Now that I answered your substantive comments, this is where you can go back to name calling. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1357
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Posted - 2014.09.08 18:06:00 -
[273] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: It's a bit more complicated than "VP are irrelevant" and "alts don't matter".
First, XG's alt capping 100 plexes is irrelevant if those plexes did not contribute towards capturing a system.
They were relevant to prevent Gallente from losing the system. Faction war occupancy is won by winning more systems than you lose. So both making sure you don't lose a system and helping to gain a system are important. In both cases the vp is important.
Veskrashen wrote: And no, random plexing backwater nowhereville systems DOESN'T MATTER to occupancy warfare for the most part. If and only if it's part of a dedicated campaign to conquer those systems does it make a real difference. See, if CalMil plexes up a non-station system away from the front lines, they get tasty tasty LPs and rack up some VPs. XG's alt then dies in a fire deplexing it, getting crap LP and the same VP. Net change - none. Even if CalMil plexed it all the way up to vulnerable with no opposition, it wouldn't matter unless the PvP focused crews came along and bashed the hub to take it. Which they'd only bother with if they wanted the space. Otherwise, it's better for CalMil to let GalMil alts deplex it down so they can keep getting the tasty tasty offensive LP instead of the crap defensive LP..
If they want to win occupancy then they win the system. The vp is important to winning the system because if you don't get enough the system is invulnerable to being flipped.
If they don't care about occupancy they may leave it to offensive plex thats true. But that doesn't change the fact that vp is important for those who want to win occupancy.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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greg01
Inglorious-Basterds Caldari State Capturing
35
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:09:00 -
[274] - Quote
Here I sit broken hearted Tried to S**t but only Farted.
Scottish Pub Toilet Banter.... Silver understands!
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1117
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:10:00 -
[275] - Quote
After the new changes the systems that have changed hands to gallente were caldari home systems. One of them started at 50%, the rest of them started less than 20% to stable. Alts impact on these systems were minimal since they were actively defended and attacking with alts is dramatically reduced.
Defensive plexers are not powerful, and do not require a blob to counter since by definition they cannot effectively fight even a single hostile neutral or wt. If a system contested rate grows too high and defensive alts are being denied by pvp attackers, a pvp defence is mounted. If the attackers dont have the numbers to repel the proper defence, then imo they dont deserve the system. If they do, they take the system. Hopefully there is some good fights in the meantime.
You didnt answer a single point. You just dodged them, as is your way. I expect you still argue here just to save face in some way, while being painfully unaware that you have no credibility, nor have you had any for as long as ive seen you post on this forum.
As for name calling, if the shoe fits etc. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
246
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:40:00 -
[276] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp)
So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...?
What?
This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1117
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:20:00 -
[277] - Quote
Phaade wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp) So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...? What? This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. Edit: the only person posting with any sense of reality is Cearain. And he's a friggin Goon. Crosi, and the rest of you Gayllente, can deny the roll your alt plexer's play all you want. The fact of the matter is when there are 4x the farmers AND 2-4x the active pvp pilots, there is no reasonable way for the opposing faction to fight back. At least under the current system. The ability of your alt plexer's to defend every possible offensive plexing attempt we make, simultaneously blobbing target systems, is what won you the warzone. Once a system reachers a certain contested level, hordes of Gayllente deplex alts show up. Caldari probably would have done the same thing if they could. I personally wouldn't because sitting in a plex with 40 dudes is disgustingly boring. The point is the FW system is incredibly flawed, and could be so much better.
I present the fact that caldari are taking back systems as refutation of your numbers and your understanding of the roll that alts play. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2116
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:26:00 -
[278] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.
The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.08 21:23:00 -
[279] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Phaade wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp) So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...? What? This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. Edit: the only person posting with any sense of reality is Cearain. And he's a friggin Goon. Crosi, and the rest of you Gayllente, can deny the roll your alt plexer's play all you want. The fact of the matter is when there are 4x the farmers AND 2-4x the active pvp pilots, there is no reasonable way for the opposing faction to fight back. At least under the current system. The ability of your alt plexer's to defend every possible offensive plexing attempt we make, simultaneously blobbing target systems, is what won you the warzone. Once a system reachers a certain contested level, hordes of Gayllente deplex alts show up. Caldari probably would have done the same thing if they could. I personally wouldn't because sitting in a plex with 40 dudes is disgustingly boring. The point is the FW system is incredibly flawed, and could be so much better. I present the fact that caldari are taking back systems as refutation of your numbers and your understanding of the roll that alts play.
Crosi, you are implying that gallente militia has more alts plexing than Caldari. Just saying.
Phaede's post is a fairly straightforward description of how the current mechanics work. There is nothing really controversial there, unless you want to obfuscate what happened so you can believe in Gallente magic and secret strategies.
Is Gallente letting Caldari back in or are they truly powerless to resist this Caldari offensive? That I don't know. But if Gallente want the systems back then they should get in a blob and take them back. After that they can use their alts exactly as Phaede described. My hunch is Gallente rank and file have had enough of this occupancy war and really doesn't care enough to take them back. The winning strategy with these mechanics is a pretty boring one. But that is a completely subjective opinion of mine, I admit it.
Phaede: talking realistically and sensibly about faction war occupancy mechanics will lead to a few but very vocal forum bullies trying to shout you down to get you to stop posting. You have been warned.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2515
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 22:03:00 -
[280] - Quote
Phaade wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree?
I disagree. Your entire argument rests on "rabbit" plexing alts when in fact my alt stood her ground in every plex. Unfortunately she died 99% of the time because her ships were unfit. (1% of the time the guy raiding the plex loses point - pro pvp) So you post to rebut his point....then concede his point...? What? This thread has gotten even worse. Hard to believe. I can actually fit my alt's ship with pvp mods to get the same exact result. In that case I guess it's OK and we won FW fair and square.
Anyways, haters gonna hate. If it were all about deplexing alts, then why hasn't anybody else taken the entire warzone over the past couple years? Don't tell me your side didn't try to do it because I was there defending my home systems when you did.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2515
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 22:05:00 -
[281] - Quote
Cearain wrote: The winning strategy with these mechanics is a pretty boring one. But that is a completely subjective opinion of mine, I admit it. You have no idea what the winning strategy is. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1117
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 22:06:00 -
[282] - Quote
I never said eve was not a numbers game (there are strategies for dealing with being outnumbered though). I just told phaade his numbers were incorrect, not that his analysis would be false if the numbers were true. Last time i was on i could only raise 11 people to go fight a 60 man squid force + potentially 40 squid friendly russian pies. Perhaps an element of burnout along side some fracturing of unified comms with the gallente in the eastern warzone contributed. Fact is, caldari is fighting back with a fairly active corp of 450 fresh nullbears and their regulars undocking in numbers again now there isnt a decent fight to be had. Cal mil has always had good numbers, its not our fault they divide themselves for us.
Your analysis of alts on the other hand is quite consistently derpy though. You want occupancy to be pvp driven, well, defensive alts ensure that all system sieges are pvp driven, this is the impact they are having. In the current iteration there is very little alt Oplexing as illustrated in the 2/3 drop in vp. Defensive alts maintain a status quo in occupancy, something that will crumble should a determined force of 4 or more people come to take a system...
Example is that caldari will have retaken nearly 10% of the warzone by this coming downtime. I can understand you misconceptions since you havent logged in since huola, i cant understand why you feel you have a good perspective on these things.
Maybe one day you will read a post from someone closer to the issues and regard it as something other than material to spin a convoluted or obtuse argument from.
Cant wait for you to tell me i agree with you again lol. |
Clive Stratton
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 02:01:00 -
[283] - Quote
JAF Anders wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:See I told them that name was bad. Damn it now no one is going to take us even remotely seriously It really is awful, though -- almost as bad as Samurai Pizza Cats. But hey, at least you didn't put any numbers in it.
Shadowolves.net
That is all. |
Epikurus
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 02:37:00 -
[284] - Quote
Lots of people on both sides of this argument ignoring the fact that there is a category of 'significant but limited' contribution between 'decisive' and 'irrelevant'. |
Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 03:02:00 -
[285] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Yuri Antollare wrote:I like the summation of your argument there, it's exactly what it was 12 pages ago.
You argue, wall of text and talk past almost everyone individually in Galmill for 13 pages, and your argument is verbatim what it was at the start...
Thats an incredible amount of close mindedness and arrogance even for you.
The fact that XGs alt had over captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks leading up to taking all caldari systems is pretty much a summation of faction war. I realize there are some in the galmilitia that don't like that fact. So you come on the forums and rage against me for bringing it up. If you mean argument as in bickering/namecalling yes there has been that. (see your post above you in no way address the fact regarding XGs alt, you just express your anger with me. ) This is pretty much the model: 1)Cearain posts a fact and some argument based on the fact. 2)Gallente players come in and shout "you're stubborn" or "you're opinion doesn't matter" Or "you're arrogant" or "you are just mad" or "you're a crybaby," or "go play wow" One guy says he doesn't have the attention span to finish a newspaper article, so there is no way he can handle my 5 paragraph response etc etc. This isn't really "argument" in the logical sense of the word. If you mean argument as in actually engaging the facts I raise there really hasn't been much. There has a been a little bit though. One galmilitia argued that vp and plexes are irrelevant to the occupancy war. But between his claims versus ccps dev blogs and my own eyes I will believe the latter. Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree? You need the alt plexers to deal with the enemy alt plexers. That is how the game works. I don't blame anyone. I and many others just don't care for it. Crosi makes a completely different argument. He argues that it is fine that most plexes are captured with alts. He is entitled to his opinion. I just think paying for alts to rabbit plex is no fun. It's unclear that crosi and I even disagree about anything that actually happens in the game. We just disagree on whether playing the current game is worth a persons time or not. That's really a summation of the threads here.
Plenty of people have written lengthy, point by point rebuttals to your "arguments," you simply talk past them. Many people brought up cogent critiques to your "But one guy capped 100 plexes so FW = broken", yet you continue to talk past them and stick to your original point with no variation.
No we don't think deplexing alts are "irrelevant" or conversely "the be all and end all," I know the vast majority of Gallente would accept they have "an" impact. However, where we remain open minded and assign varying weights to different causal explanations, we have you, who assigns 100% to one causal explanation and 0% to anything else and does so from a greater distance between your self and FW and "us" and FW. Completely aside from EvE thats just a poor way to conduct robust rational inquiry.
As others have said, and you glossed over, deplexing alts are a symptom of Caldari weakness, not a cause. You say XG's alt ran 100 plexes in two weeks (which tbh, somedays I do about 8 my self, so 100 is pretty small,) but in which systems? If the systems didn't matter to occupancy or the Caldari then who cares, if they did matter to the Caldari, how did one gunless frigate manage to stave off their defenders/attackers? What you fail to dispute is the fact that if Caldari defended the system, defensive plex alts would have 0 effect. So, hopefully, you can see it's really strange to say the alt is the issue when in reality who held the system came down to whether Caldari defended or not. Someone actually has to open the box to see if the Cat has guns or not.
Again both you and now Phaade use a lot of terms like "hunch," "for some reason", "I don't know why but" when it gets down to the actual details of how your theory works. No one seems to know why the plex alts are always favoring Gallente, iteration after iteration, or why the WZ inevitably starts to change as soon as they say its dead. Or more curiously why ,when all they offer is system level causal explanations, Galmill is the only militia to take 100% control twice. These are hints, some subtle some that should be fairly obvious, that your theory lacks explanatory power.
Note I didn't say it was wrong, just that it has a myopic focus on numbers shorn of context and as such remains relatively useless if someone wanted to explain the actual course of events in the WZ. Galmill in this thread have had plenty to say about VP and the role of alts in the WZ, you are the one that has gone 13 pages without once mentioning anything about the Caldari themselves (how they chose to defend, doctrines used, level of cooperation, tactical or strategic.) I haven't seen you look at whether or not, if the Caldari changed something here or there, they could have won a siege or been able to plex up one of the backwaters, yet if they had, WZ control would never have happened.
Anytime you want some backgrounding on any of the above, ask me, I was moving ships from siege to siege and soloing in systems like Mantenault, Sarenemi and Hasama. My opinion is many of both the offensive sieges and the defensive efforts were extremely close run events. There was no point Calmill was out of the game unti the point they gave up.
But thats just my opinion from actually being there, where were you when formulating your opinion? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2516
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 04:06:00 -
[286] - Quote
Clive Stratton wrote:Shadowolves.net. To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1117
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Posted - 2014.09.09 07:45:00 -
[287] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:So, hopefully, you [Cearain] can see
Hahahaha
Yuri Antollare wrote:But thats just my opinion from actually being there, where were you [Cearain] when formulating your opinion?
He formed his opinion literally 2 years ago so i doubt he can remember. He was correct that alts were THE problem during inferno, and has got progressively less correct as FW has changed. Irony is that he considers the inferno mechanics to be the best ones and that we should all go back to bashing 60-80 systems in 3-4 days (something he never participated in, pretty much like everything else he talks about). |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
16
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Posted - 2014.09.09 13:37:00 -
[288] - Quote
I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.
The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.
The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
315
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Posted - 2014.09.09 13:43:00 -
[289] - Quote
Moglarr wrote:I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.
The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.
The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down.
1. Deplexing alts don't take systems with current mechanics, at best they help hold them against non-determined aggressors 2. Timezone Coverage 3. Taking the war zone wasn't super easy, don't believe people that say it was. And why would you want us to hold it forever?!? Thats crazy talk right there. 4. It gets brushed off cuz you haven't taken a home system. 5. Please take more systems faster. BLFOX is currently recruiting |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1119
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Posted - 2014.09.09 13:51:00 -
[290] - Quote
Moglar, as one of a group of people who help coordinate defences of outlying systems i can assure you we were not trusting that important job to deplexing alts. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2516
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Posted - 2014.09.09 14:46:00 -
[291] - Quote
Moglarr wrote: The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down. In taking the warzone we also took all the Caldari home systems - and that's the key.
Vacating your home systems like Athens did in the movie "300: Rise of Empire" is a valid tactic. The Spartans would probably think you were a bunch of pussies, but Loenidas thought you were a bunch of "boy lovers" in the first movie anyways. So it's not like your reputation can get any worse. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
774
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 14:52:00 -
[292] - Quote
Na, the whole .net thing made it far more embarrassing. Curious was the name inspired by jazz music fans within your ranks or Anime fans?
X Gallentius wrote:Clive Stratton wrote:Shadowolves.net. To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.
nom nom
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2516
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Posted - 2014.09.09 14:57:00 -
[293] - Quote
Lots of our guys are into Jazzercise. And yes, there's also "Cowboy Bebop", which fits the cowboy theme of JUSTK.
Princess Nexxala wrote:Na, the whole .net thing made it far more embarrassing. Curious was the name inspired by jazz music fans within your ranks or Anime fans? X Gallentius wrote:Clive Stratton wrote:Shadowolves.net. To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
382
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:23:00 -
[294] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Moglarr wrote:I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.
The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.
The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down. 1. Deplexing alts don't take systems with current mechanics, at best they help hold them against non-determined aggressors 2. Timezone Coverage 3. Taking the war zone wasn't super easy, don't believe people that say it was. And why would you want us to hold it forever?!? Thats crazy talk right there. 4. It gets brushed off cuz you haven't taken a home system. 5. Please take more systems faster. I would add the following to Thanatos' points: 1. Oplexing alts/farmers can take systems that no one lives in or really cares about. They cannot take home systems or systems that a militia actually cares about and actively deplexes (they can however keep the pressure on such systems and make the deplexing a real pain in the ass. Deplexing alts similarly are not going to save a home system from capture. You have to fight to keep such systems (but they can make the task easier to a minor extent).
2. Yep timezone coverage. Don't complain that your AU and Russian farmers didn't know what you needed.
3. The warzone was held for 26 hours iirc the first time we took it (over one down time as well) and for about 4 days this time. What happened was once it was taken the incentive to pump lp back into hubs to keep tier 4 dropped off, we went into tier 3 and those that run farmer alts in our militia probably took this as a sign of **** it and logged in their Calmil farming alts instead. That this is happening is perfectly reflected in the vp totals for the last few days. Calmil running 14-16k per day lately and Galmil 9-11k per day (almost the reverse of the leadup to our taking of the warzone). So remember that if you are tempted to change your tune about farming alts as they start to benefit your side more.
4. The not holding the warzone for an extended period of time brush off is simply a function of fatigue. It was a pvp venture to siege home systems fight around the clock with whatever spare time you had or could clear from wife aggro, and then to bust the hubs under pirate hotdrop threat. The mechanics are radically different from when Damar held the warzone for Caldari for months with his after downtime advantage.
5. If you ever get to where we were you will know that this endeavor was not easy and was not a pve victory despite what Cearain and others would like to believe. Yes it would be nice if CCP would find a way to take the lp grinding farmers out of the equation. Whether that can be done, or to what extent, we all have suggestions.
Anyway, yes farmers have had a part to play in any of the past takings of the warzone. However, this last time they probably had the least impact of any of the three times. But I know you'll probably choose to believe what makes you feel less bad about losing it. Whatever vOv CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
774
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Posted - 2014.09.09 18:24:00 -
[295] - Quote
TEST left CalMil. Calmil collapses. gg GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
187
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 06:07:00 -
[296] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:TEST left CalMil. Calmil collapses. gg
Trust me, you didn't add any extra value. We call that a failed investment in the real world --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::------- |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Templis CALSF
665
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Posted - 2014.09.10 07:11:00 -
[297] - Quote
Test made better targets than allies |
Fourteen Maken
House of Shire The Ditanian Alliance
139
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Posted - 2014.09.10 10:13:00 -
[298] - Quote
I see somebody is already upgrading caldari systems, even though they don't have enough systems to get T2 yet.
no point wasting lp like that: better to save it until you're ready to do a push for T2, or just let players cash it in. This is the same thing happened when test joined, wasted lp at the start of the push, then when we had more than enough systems for T4 nobody wanted to donate so we spent about a month in T2 when we could have been T4. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
425
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 11:56:00 -
[299] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:I see somebody is already upgrading caldari systems, even though they don't have enough systems to get T2 yet.
no point wasting lp like that: better to save it until you're ready to do a push for T2, or just let players cash it in. This is the same thing happened when test joined, wasted lp at the start of the push, then when we had more than enough systems for T4 nobody wanted to donate so we spent about a month in T2 when we could have been T4. Right. Because the most important thing to focus on is getting LP and Tiers in the most efficient manner possible. No reason to upgrade systems for pride, or for manufacturing / research bonuses, or anything like that. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Fourteen Maken
House of Shire The Ditanian Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 22:07:00 -
[300] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: Right. Because the most important thing to focus on is getting LP and Tiers in the most efficient manner possible. No reason to upgrade systems for pride, or for manufacturing / research bonuses, or anything like that.
No, the most important thing is winning and keeping players interested. Caldari only have a few systems right now so every Galmil pilot in the warzone will be flocking there to plex, that LP will evaporate and the systems will be degraded long before they get enough to push for T2 as you know well. At current prices that's billions worth of LP wasted in hubs which could be spent on ships to fight the war, or saved for a tier push later = more LP and more ships to fight the war. I'm not criticizing, i'm just stating a fact. |
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