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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 15:04:00 -
[331] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Nope, I still disagree. The Caldari took too long to actively attack backwater systems and then were not persistent enough when they ran into active resistance.
Ok we disagree. I am confident that if the gallente had no alts plexing they would be sitting at tier 1 - at least most of the time. The alts from the amarr and caldari would overwhelm them. (I should clarify that I mean if gallente had no alts plexing for them in the caldari/gallente front. That is, no minmatar plexing for them either.)
I think the Caldari would have been more persistent in the back waters if they did not find that their plexing work was undone by defensive plexing alts as soon as they leave. Gallente pvpers would not be willing or able to put up enough active resistance to cover the warzone.
But anyway how much do we disagree?
Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
315
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 15:31:00 -
[332] - Quote
We still would have taken the entire warzone. However, you would be seeing systems get flipped back faster.
The changes that were made to rat tanks/respawn made a huge difference in how much rabbit plexers can affect systems that are already under your control. The shaping of the warzone that was done right before the change hit seems to have worked out well.
BLFOX is currently recruiting |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
37
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Posted - 2014.09.16 15:35:00 -
[333] - Quote
i told you nerds this was gonna happen |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
384
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 15:40:00 -
[334] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:i told you nerds this was gonna happen And no ***** were given. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
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Posted - 2014.09.16 16:00:00 -
[335] - Quote
Cearain wrote: The question is what effect did the gallente alts have on your taking all systems.
I thought this question was already asked and answered: BOTH plexing alts and Gallente militia were responsible for taking the warzone.
Specifically: For the offensive plexing alts at higher tiers: It made it easier to take undefended systems and systems where Caldari did not have TZ coverage. Sped up the process, and probably demoralized our opponents into not trying to defend. One example is Dei-Telum in the Valerian constellation who decided to take a break from FW even though half the constellation was in their hands.
Defensive plexing alts: Honestly don't know about this one. There weren't really any offensive Caldari plexing alts out and about - still aren't. I would say they helped keep the fringe systems (Sarenemi and Hyera for example) in Gallente control - but in both of those cases we were ready to send some of our troops out there to secure them when needed.
As for "lucky to hold Tier 2" comment. We had 60 systems without the massive influx of plexing alts which only came when we decided to upgrade systems to Tier 3.
The Gallente militia was responsible for taking heavily defended systems and busting bunkers, and providing support to our plexing alts when there was stiffer resistance from Caldari in those backwater systems.
At the end of the campaign we had PLENTY of spare pilots to project power to any part of the map we desired. We could have had lots of guys with mains actively defensive plexing all corners of the map while 30+ guys sat in the main systems running plexes and BS'ing with each other on comms.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 16:03:00 -
[336] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Whenever the effect of alts are minimized we take the entire warzone. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 16:20:00 -
[337] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:We still would have taken the entire warzone. However, you would be seeing systems get flipped back faster.
The changes that were made to rat tanks/respawn made a huge difference in how much rabbit plexers can affect systems that are already under your control. The shaping of the warzone that was done right before the change hit seems to have worked out well.
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
So it would only be pvp mains that would d-plex and o-plex all the gains the other alts and mains made?
Certainly we saw a lower amount of offensive plexing after Kronos. But even now we see caldari getting 100,000 vp per weak. And that does not even include the amarr alts that would be plexing in that area at tier 2! Given that one of XGs alts had more vp than he did(and we don't know how many dplexing alts he has) its likely that most of a militias vp is coming from alts. So we can see that gallente probably would have been getting about half the vp. (if we include amarr plexers whatever that value is we would see they were getting considerably less than half.) Even to say half the vp is due to fw mains is overly generous since many of the plexing alts are players who don't even have their main in faction war.
If one side is getting half the vp over time they won't take all the systems. If you want to say well we already had a large percent of the systems, thanks to our alts before kronos ok. But that is still relying on the alts.
Bottom line is that (barring some huge null sec alliance coming in) in the long term no militia can hope to fight and win the occupancy war unless they resort to alts for rabbit plexing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 16:42:00 -
[338] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
If the other side didn't have any plexing alts... Yes.
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
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Posted - 2014.09.16 21:38:00 -
[339] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Whenever the effect of alts are minimized we take the entire warzone.
You didn't answer the question. The reason you didn't answer the question is because you are too wrapped up in silly arguments about your militia being better than the other militia.
The issue to what extent rabbits alts have on the occupancy war - not quibbling about which militia has more alts.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
If the other side didn't have any plexing alts... Yes.
Again you keep wanting to point fingers at the other side instead of answering the question.
The question is: under the current mechanics if Gallente did not have plexing alts would they be able to take all the systems? Of course the other side would have plexing alts like they do now. Certain players have been trying to claim the gallente alts were not that important for the gallente victory etc.
I am putting that in perspective and saying what should not be controversial to anyone familiar with the occupancy war. That is if Gallente did not have plexing alts (or minmatar alts) in thier front they would be sitting at tier one and lucky to hit tier 2 on occasion.
Do you agree? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
1922
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 21:54:00 -
[340] - Quote
Cerain, I'll make this as simple as possible.
If VPs are tied to just running timers --> you can get VP while AFK, if nobody shows up to disrupt your efforts.
If VPs are also tied to doing something (such as, for example, killing a pretty tanky and re-spawning rat) --> you basically can't get VP AFK.
I think that, yes, we all agree that AFK gameplay is uncool and should be discouraged.
Under the old system, you could get both offensive and defensive VPs while AFK.
Under the new system, you can only gain defensive VPs while AFK. Big improvement, in almost everyone's opinion.
Next step to make you happy: add rats also to de-plex (I'll let you come up with a mechanic for that).
But the real point is: whatever the mechanics, the militia that adapts more and whines less will always win, even against superior numbers.
Hint: that would be us Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1122
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 22:14:00 -
[341] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Cerain, I'll make this as simple as possible. If VPs are tied to just running timers --> you can get VP while AFK, if nobody shows up to disrupt your efforts. If VPs are also tied to doing something (such as, for example, killing a pretty tanky and re-spawning rat) --> you basically can't get VP AFK. I think that, yes, we all agree that AFK gameplay is uncool and should be discouraged. Under the old system, you could get both offensive and defensive VPs while AFK. Under the new system, you can only gain defensive VPs while AFK. Big improvement, in almost everyone's opinion. Next step to make you happy: add rats also to de-plex (I'll let you come up with a mechanic for that). But the real point is: whatever the mechanics, the militia that adapts more and whines less will always win, even against superior numbers. Hint: that would be us
It did cross my mind to have a friendly and hostile rat in ALL plexes. They fight each other but can easily tank, all you have to do is pass the dps check by killing the rat hostile to you. Rat strength remains the same, rat dps is a non factor since they are always shooting each other with like 1 dps. This removes rats from solo pvp equation too.
Anyone see any problem with that? Is there much of a tank check factor in the current rats that would be missed in this kind of change?
My general rule is that rats are never the answer, cant deny they were a crude fix, but a fix non the less.
As for cearains posting of late, i am left with no doubt he is simply a concern troll. What a load of garbage posting. Hes here to just score points and has no interest in improving FW. Im going to try to ignore his posts again unless he posts something really dumn. That is not a challenge cearain. What i mean by that is not that im not challenging you to post something dumb, just that it doesnt seem to be a challenge for you to do so. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 22:19:00 -
[342] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Do you think Gallente would have taken all the systems without any alts? What tier do you think Gallente would be sitting at if they had no alts plexing for them? Whenever the effect of alts are minimized we take the entire warzone. You didn't answer the question. The reason you didn't answer the question is because you are too wrapped up in silly arguments about your militia being better than the other militia. The issue to what extent rabbits alts have on the occupancy war - not quibbling about which militia has more alts. X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
Are you saying you think gallente could have gained and held the entire warzone for at least one downtime without any plexing alts helping you?
If the other side didn't have any plexing alts... Yes. Again you keep wanting to point fingers at the other side instead of answering the question. The question is: under the current mechanics if Gallente did not have plexing alts would they be able to take all the systems? Of course the other side would have plexing alts like they do now. Certain players have been trying to claim the gallente alts were not that important for the gallente victory etc. I am putting that in perspective and saying what should not be controversial to anyone familiar with the occupancy war. That is if Gallente did not have plexing alts (or minmatar alts) in thier front they would be sitting at tier one and lucky to hit tier 2 on occasion. Do you agree? Pointing fingers how? You want an honest answer about effect of plexing alts on the system then you need to consider having them on both sides or on no side. But, since you asked:
Gallente vs. Caldari + Plexing Alts = Gallente holding about 25 systems when times are tough.
Let's do a "system count" Alparena, Mercomesier, Athounon, Reschard (BEBIG) Eha, Oicx, Vlillirier, Renarelle, Eugales, Aldranette, Frarie (BEBOP, GMVA, old school TPLUS guys, 1Gank1) Nennamaila, Enaluri, Hallanen, Immuri (Core Gallente Groups) Onatoh, Tannolen (RDRAW) Fliet, Old Man Star (AIDER, Total Eclipse) Nisuwa, Notoras (Crosi)
That's 21 systems, many recently "colonized" by 300+ man corps/alliances, and many that haven't been flipped in about a year because of dedicated PLAYERS deplexing them.
There are other systems that are stable such as Onatoh, southern Placid (Covryn, Dastryns, etc...) that aren't stable because of LP whores (you don't get enough LP deplexing 0.67% systems to 0%) that are not on this list. I simply don't have eyes on those systems so I don't know exactly who is taking the time to make those systems stable. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 22:29:00 -
[343] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:It did cross my mind to have a friendly and hostile rat in ALL plexes. The hilarious thing is that Cearain is the guy who championed NO rats in plexes. What a travesty it was for the entire FW community to not have adequate dps checks on rats.
I think everybody in FW would welcome dps checks on defensive plexes as well. |
May Arethusa
PillowBrigade Inc Heiian Conglomerate
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 23:34:00 -
[344] - Quote
Quote:However, the changes in o-plexing dynamics did make a huge difference IMO. Npcs that respawn and tank some decent dps means that you can't o-plex while afk nearly as easily, and theres no taking a small or medium outpost in a Condor. Anyone else notice a severe decline in the presence of those pesky bastards since the FW changes? Light-missile kiters are at a big disadvantage due to the low dps output, and CalMil lost a great number of the plexing alts. Subsequently, as GalMil pulled ahead inTier, a great number showed up to get in on easy and profitable d-plexing.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
It did cross my mind to have a friendly and hostile rat in ALL plexes. They fight each other but can easily tank, all you have to do is pass the dps check by killing the rat hostile to you. Rat strength remains the same, rat dps is a non factor since they are always shooting each other with like 1 dps. This removes rats from solo pvp equation too.
Anyone see any problem with that? Is there much of a tank check factor in the current rats that would be missed in this kind of change?
My general rule is that rats are never the answer, cant deny they were a crude fix, but a fix non the less.
I'll deal with these at the same time as they're related to a single issue.
Uniformity between offensive and defensive plexing is really what FW needs, as it's from the differences that many of our current complaints arise. The need to kill a rat while offensive plexing is a rather crude attempt to simulate the difficulties in besieging a hostile stronghold, one that really isn't needed. Why artificially inflate the effort required to assault a system when the onus is already on the attacking side to initiate an often lengthy process. Relocating assets, establishing supply chains, and getting pilots in system is more than enough of a ball ache without worrying about a rat respawning every minute.
As far as the recent changes to offensive plexing go, I wasn't attempting to play down the impact they've had. Spread across 150 plexes, the time spent dealing with rats soon adds up, meaning it takes longer to plex up a system than it does to plex down. Add in enemy resistance and the defender has a clear advantage, not just in time spent plexing, but also cost and ship choice. I don't really think the increased tank was the cause of CalMil losing its plexing power though, it's an area we've always struggled with, and the chances just happened to take place when the Gallente push was building momentum. Too long at Tier 1 and the increasing profitability of switching sides is more to blame here.
I'm all for having a friendly and hostile rat in every plex. Under the current system, any change tips the balance in favour of the attacker or the defender. All allegiances aside, we should be aiming for a level playing field where the players dictate how the war is fought, not the mechanics. On paper, an unfit T1 frigate currently has a greater impact upon occupancy than a competently fit PVP ship. This fact is often missed in all the action, but it points out the flaws in FW perfectly. There's no reason why someone defending a system shouldn't be subjected to the same checks and balances as their opponents. It cuts down on the unfit, unaffiliated pilots looking to make a quick buck, and gives those of us who care about system control a greater chance of encountering these almost mythical "good fights" I keep hearing about.
Finally, Condors... I was pretty sad when I realised I couldn't go out and solo plex in one. I quickly got over it when I found out that actually bringing people along with me tended to result in more entertaining fights. You still see them around, and a solitary Condor on short at a small or medium almost always results in combat. I'm actually okay with that. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 00:52:00 -
[345] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote: The need to kill a rat while offensive plexing is a rather crude attempt to simulate the difficulties in besieging a hostile stronghold, one that really isn't needed. Why artificially inflate the effort required to assault a system when the onus is already on the attacking side to initiate an often lengthy process.
Without dps check, farmers run out smaller corporations from their homesystems. That's why. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1358
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 01:35:00 -
[346] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Cerain, I'll make this as simple as possible. If VPs are tied to just running timers --> you can get VP while AFK, if nobody shows up to disrupt your efforts. If VPs are also tied to doing something (such as, for example, killing a pretty tanky and re-spawning rat) --> you basically can't get VP AFK. I think that, yes, we all agree that AFK gameplay is uncool and should be discouraged. Under the old system, you could get both offensive and defensive VPs while AFK. Under the new system, you can only gain defensive VPs while AFK. Big improvement, in almost everyone's opinion. Next step to make you happy: add rats also to de-plex (I'll let you come up with a mechanic for that). But the real point is: whatever the mechanics, the militia that adapts more and whines less will always win, even against superior numbers. Hint: that would be us
Just making plexing that is not done afk is not where I am setting the bar. Just because you have to be in a chair staring at the screen does not mean it's fun game play. The faction war occupancy game can easily be more fun and exciting than that, and ccp has indicated they will do the things to make it that way.
Ideally there should not be a need to have any npcs. Faction war should not be a carebear race to see who can kill the most red crosses. The players should defend the plexes. CCP is likely thinking the same way as they have greatly reduced the influence of npcs over the years. I think they would love it if there was pvp fighting in every plex so there would be no more need for npcs there.
The problem is players do not have sufficient intel tools to defend against people who want to rabbit plex. Chase them out and they will just go a system or 2 over and start another plex. Also without timer rollbacks even if we could easilly find exactly where people are plexing they would still potentially make gains.
CCP has indicated they intend to address both issues by giving us better intel tools and timer rollbacks . However these sorts of fixes are not as easy as giving a rat more tank or having it deliver fewer dps. So I think we received Kronos not as some thought that fw is going to be fixed but rather as a sort of easy to do stop gap. I do think players need to continue to give ccp input that these changes are still needed or it is easy for them to put it off. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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May Arethusa
PillowBrigade Inc Heiian Conglomerate
17
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 02:08:00 -
[347] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:May Arethusa wrote: The need to kill a rat while offensive plexing is a rather crude attempt to simulate the difficulties in besieging a hostile stronghold, one that really isn't needed. Why artificially inflate the effort required to assault a system when the onus is already on the attacking side to initiate an often lengthy process.
Without dps check, farmers run out smaller corporations from their homesystems. That's why.
I understand that, though I'd dispute the accuracy of your statement to some degree. It really depends upon how you define small, and whether you actually mean less active.
The comment was largely to highlight the discrepancies between offensive and defensive plexing and the effort required for each. I'm certainly not against a DPS check, I just think that in its current form it creates more problems than it solves. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1123
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 03:21:00 -
[348] - Quote
May Arethusa wrote:X Gallentius wrote:May Arethusa wrote: The need to kill a rat while offensive plexing is a rather crude attempt to simulate the difficulties in besieging a hostile stronghold, one that really isn't needed. Why artificially inflate the effort required to assault a system when the onus is already on the attacking side to initiate an often lengthy process.
Without dps check, farmers run out smaller corporations from their homesystems. That's why. I understand that, though I'd dispute the accuracy of your statement to some degree. It really depends upon how you define small, and whether you actually mean less active. The comment was largely to highlight the discrepancies between offensive and defensive plexing and the effort required for each. I'm certainly not against a DPS check, I just think that in its current form it creates more problems than it solves.
Not it doesnt, it solved the greatest problem FW had ever seen. 50-100k VP per day + unrecorded diagonal plexing achieved almost exclusively by 2 day-2 week old alts causing an almost complete swing of the gallente/caldari warzone each month (or quicker with regard to swings in caldaris favor). Various iterations of plex rats have got us to where we are now, a system that seems robust enough to allow good fights while denying 2 day old evasion alts to yield 500+mil per hour.
I personally think that a defensive plex DPS check would put FW in a good place. Its a horrible fix, but the problem is its not aimed at fixing the game, its aimed at fixing the players. |
Clive Stratton
Quantum Cats Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 04:27:00 -
[349] - Quote
Nisuwa, Notoras (Crosi)
Crosi is my Brosi, but I beg to disagree. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1123
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Posted - 2014.09.17 04:37:00 -
[350] - Quote
Clive Stratton wrote:
Nisuwa, Notoras (Crosi)
Crosi is my Brosi, but I beg to disagree.
Yep, ive not been on. Computer is rebuilt as of now though so ill muck in :) |
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Clive Stratton
Quantum Cats Syndicate
8
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Posted - 2014.09.17 05:09:00 -
[351] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Yep, ive not been on. Computer is rebuilt as of now though so ill muck in :)
Eh, it's been quiet. Killed the few Pastas that showed up, other squids seem content to farm closer to Nourv.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
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Posted - 2014.09.17 10:02:00 -
[352] - Quote
Clive Stratton wrote:
Nisuwa, Notoras (Crosi)
Crosi is my Brosi, but I beg to disagree.
My bad. didn't know that covert cats corp was on the job. :) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2524
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 10:06:00 -
[353] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Just making plexing that is not done afk is not where I am setting the bar. Just because you have to be in a chair staring at the screen does not mean it's fun game play. The faction war occupancy game can easily be more fun and exciting than that, and ccp has indicated they will do the things to make it that way.
If you want fun gameplay then run your plex where people are living and spam local like that french dude in Monty Python.
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Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
381
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 21:04:00 -
[354] - Quote
Yes...
Good idea 2 npcs in perpetual fights, so while deplexing you get aggro by the enemy npcs, and the ennemi npc can permanent the other npc +the actual tanking rate CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and to Put Them on Killmail TOO, same for Logi....Open that damn door !! |
GavinGoodrich
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted.
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 02:29:00 -
[355] - Quote
Myth Oceanas wrote:GavinGoodrich wrote:All I'm seeing in this whole thread are both sides going "no, it's like this," with every other counter argument being "no, not like that, like this."
There's hardly any reason to even debate if everybody's so dead-set on "how things are." History is written by the winners. So I'd listen to the GalMil, because its apparent they did something right.
Eh, doesn't work that way when the war continues. There is no "winning" in a perpetual war game mechanic like this one. CCP doesn't burn the forum posts of whichever team loses. The pendulum will keep on swingin. Long live the war. Haaaaaalp my head's on fire |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1124
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Posted - 2014.09.18 15:24:00 -
[356] - Quote
Logged on, OTO is vulnerable. 15 kills in 2 hours and squids retreated to let us stabilise the system a little.
If only i had intel tools to let me know where the enemies were.
FW is totally broken!
IB4 YOU BLOBBED THEM OUT OF SYSTEM - you would be correct if 7 people could blob 15. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2525
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 15:33:00 -
[357] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Logged on, OTO is vulnerable. 15 kills in 2 hours and squids retreated to let us stabilise the system a little.
You should have 40 kills in two hours. EVE PVP IS SO BROKEN!
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