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Rouen-Michel en Lefevre
2072
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Posted - 2014.08.28 22:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
All of the responses are welcome. To those that criticized my choice of terms in the original post, I intentionally made it as simple and vague as possible to allow a wide variety of responses. It was intended to avoid semantics, but apparently that did not succeed. |
James Syagrius
Anshar Incorporated
905
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 22:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Despite our many technological advancements, humans are still subject to the shadows of our evolutionary past.
We are by nature a tribal and territorial animal, given to fear the unknown or the unfamiliar.
Conflict like hate are our closest companions. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Aedre Lafisques
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
1
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Posted - 2014.08.28 23:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
It is a bit "semantics" when I would like to assume everyone is actually on the same page, but it is worthwhile to point out again that 'change', 'chaos' and 'freedom' are indeed entirely different concepts by definition. I think it can be safely said that each of these words were used with clear intention; while they may at times overlap in extremes, that can be argued about most things. Freedom and change are just as capable of generating peace and/or stability as they are for war or chaos.
Presently, we're seeing war, usually a harbinger of chaos and a threat to stability AS stability. Instead of a violent and sudden clash of ideals with a clear victor (perhaps not always the best way of settling ideological points, but one we have agreed upon as satisfying for ages) we are seeing war as the status quo, and something to become used to as an institution.
I would posit that the current situation is stability to bring this back around to the original post. I would also argue that it's unacceptable in the long run because it is itself an extreme and I think we have all agreed that 'extremes are bad'.
I believe people who are afraid of change assume all change will result in extremes. Historically, change is often followed by a short period of chaos, sure, but we should try to look at the bigger picture than our inconvenience. I'm fairly certain war-as-stability isn't in any of our best interests - and despite contention, it seems like we do agree on this, for the most part. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4017
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Posted - 2014.08.28 23:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:The opposite to chaos is order. Not stagnation.
I believe one can go THROUGH a state of order and into stagnation. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Lao Xin
HazMat Miner Inc
0
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Posted - 2014.08.29 02:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Order requires action. An action requires will. So, order is methodical will in action.
Chaos also requires action. The action in chaos defies methodology, and is random action.
So, stagnation is a result of chaos. There was never a methodical effort to bring stability, or order, to that environment. Instead, it was left to degrade on its own, or stagnate, as the result of chaos.
What seems to mar the vision of those caught in politics is that there is order and chaos in all things. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4017
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
Meh - you're talking about the messy breakdown of a system. I'm talking about the imposition of a rigid and unchanging order. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Lao Xin
HazMat Miner Inc
0
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Posted - 2014.08.29 02:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
Everything changes constantly. Order must change with any action, including actions for the sake of order. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3995
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Posted - 2014.08.29 03:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
How about we abandon the idea of there being a hard-and-fast rule about what lies where on the spectrum that contains anarchy, hmm?
There's no algorithm for this. In all the centuries of human history, nobody's yet programmed an app that calculates to seven decimal places the precisely optimal ratio of chaos to whatever its opposite may be. We are, I hope, never going to turn to a computer and have it spit out a ream of figures saying that it will be optimal for our society if X many ships are destroyed for the loss of Y lives. I don't think such a calculable "sweet spot" exists.
The most any of us can do is act according to our best judgement. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4018
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Posted - 2014.08.29 04:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:How about we abandon the idea of there being a hard-and-fast rule about what lies where on the spectrum that contains anarchy, hmm?
There's no algorithm for this. In all the centuries of human history, nobody's yet programmed an app that calculates to seven decimal places the precisely optimal ratio of chaos to whatever its opposite may be. We are, I hope, never going to turn to a computer and have it spit out a ream of figures saying that it will be optimal for our society if X many ships are destroyed for the loss of Y lives. I don't think such a calculable "sweet spot" exists.
The most any of us can do is act according to our best judgement.
Meh - someone will try it, and if it turns out to be a better way to live, it'll catch on. Until the next, better, idea. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1645
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Yes, Msr Lafisques, in this case by 'profit' I could have been said to have meant 'benefit'. In addition you are totally correct that I was referring to the social, economic and cultural health of the state as a whole. The sad truth is that there are plenty of narrow groups and individuals who profit from eternal war - at the ruinous expense of the body politic.
Madam Gesakaarin is a good example of this.
For the past decade the industry that is the Capsuleer War Economy has been developing in the cluster. Like any new industry throughout human history, its development will create societal change and development that will require adjustments to be made. To call it ruinous however ignores the fact that in the CONCORD regulated War Economy it is the Caldari State that stands to gain not only from market transaction taxes in its territories but also from its ability to satisfy the demands of both capsuleer SCC and foreign markets for armaments supply due to the maturity and strength of its domestic military industries.
Some may balk at the loss of life incurred by an industry premised upon perpetual conflict that creates perpetual demand for armaments supply. It must be remembered however that the annual casualty rates inflicted by the War Economy remain steady at a fraction of one percent of total populations. If seen purely as a necessary commodity, then the lives of participants within the War Economy remain sustainable and renewable in the long term. Indeed, if through the loss of a single life hundreds if not thousands more find themselves purposefully and gainfully employed in the State in its military industries and associated supply and services companies then that is not a life lost in vain.
There is a new economic status quo arising where conflict must exist to ensure the long-term viability of the War Economy and its associated benefits. Stability between the Big Four will be maintained so long as economic interests in the continuation of the CEWMPA conflict remain strong enough to prevent either its cessation or its further escalation. The last man that seriously risked the new status quo between State and Federation, former Executor Heth, was promptly and effectively dealt with as necessary for his failure to recognize the New Order that the entire cluster has been shifting towards for a decade.
Now when the administration of the Homeworld by Ishukone ameliorates the need for military escalation on the part of of the State and the successes of Operation Highlander and the FDU will likely see a second (if not more) terms in Office by President Roden then the stage will have been set for the continuation of the CEWMPA conflict not on any real ideological basis but in the perpetuation of conflict in the corporate interests of both State and Federation. The true objective remaining neither victory nor defeat, but the continuation of the war into the future that is controlled, regulated, and contained as a new market and economic resource.
The anachronistic memes of socio-political idealists and ideologues will always remain impotent before the strength and power of capitalism and market forces. Those that would seek to oppose them, and thus human nature itself, such as Tibus Heth, and such as so many others have my pity as the future rulers of their own personal mountains of ash. All that is required is participation in the War Economy and not the personal reasons why. The question of why is less important than the question of how much.
How much will one gain.
How much will it cost in real terms.
The CEWMPA War Economy offers significant economic benefit and advantage to corporations of both State and Federation and its only real associated cost is the acceptable loss of life.
Those today who believe themselves to be opposed to the creation of this New Order between the companies of State and Federation have already lost.
They lost when the FNS Wandering Saint crashed into the Ishukone station in Malkalen.
They lost when the Caldari State invaded the Federation and the Homeworld.
They lost when the State Protectorate captured all the territories in the Federal CEWMPA zone in YC 111.
They lost when President Roden was elected in the Federation due to the advances of the State Protectorate in Federal territory.
They lost when the SDII was created under Mentas Blaque.
They lost when Operation Highlander was successful in YC 115.
They lost when Tibus Heth was removed from power in Haatamo.
They lost when Haatakan Oiritsuu-Tirokkutun returned.
They lost when Ishukone was granted Administrative rights over the Homeworld.
They lost when the FDU again captured all territories in the State CEWMPA zone now in this year, just months out of the upcoming Federal Presidential elections.
For the past six years of the CEWMPA war between State and the Federation the same discussions have taken place by the blind, the same ineffectual platitudes expressed, the same rhetoric used, recycled and rehashed year after year. Like those who seem only able to see the pawns moved across the board, too busy talking to see the positions of the other pieces in play, they have failed to realize the creation of the framework of the new paradigm manifesting into being:
War is Peace. |
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1235
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Posted - 2014.08.30 12:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
923
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good. Yup, that'll work. Good luck getting the brass to approve that operation. See you on the battlefield. o7 The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
731
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good.
You had the chance to do that in 110. You didn't take it. You don't get a second chance, because they'll have prepared defenses precisely to prevent that sort of thing happening a second time.
Getting that far in the future would take a siege, something the State navy doesn't have the numbers for. Amarr does, though. But CONCORD won't allow that kind of escalation. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
923
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good. You had the chance to do that in 110. You didn't take it. You don't get a second chance, because they'll have prepared defenses precisely to prevent that sort of thing happening a second time. Getting that far in the future would take a siege, something the State navy doesn't have the numbers for. Amarr does, though. But CONCORD won't allow that kind of escalation. Shhhh, don't tell her that. You'll dash her little dreams of conquest and glory... Besides, I actually think it would be fun. The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5377
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 07:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
I think the capsuleers are the only ones left fighting in any war. Makes me wonder if it's all a scam to keep us buying goods off war profiteers and endlessly throw crew into this meat grinder as a well hidden population control measure. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Urthel Drengist
Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd.
4
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Posted - 2014.09.03 09:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rouen-Michel en Lefevre wrote:Setting aside the likelihood of stability in the cluster, I am curious as to how many capsuleers desire stability between the empires. It is not uncommon to see people communicate the pointlessness of the proxy conflict or the cultural and historical antagonisms. But acknowledging their pointlessness is not necessarily the same thing as desiring for those conflicts and antagonisms to cease. Nor does belief that the conflicts are important necessarily mean someone believes they should continue.
Setting aside those in nullsec that claim to not care about the empires, do you desire empire stability and relative peace?
That would be ideal....However, stability should occur in a way that serves all four empires equally... Urthel Drengist
C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ]-á |
Arista Shahni
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
173
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Posted - 2014.09.03 16:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
We are the peaceful solution to the viability of the cluster.
I will not again write essays as to why.
Veikitaamo is a a good enough for me in this thread already.
When the difference now between becoming a base-liner warpilot is genereally choice as opposed to draft/levies/enforced participation by the Empire in space as opposed to groundside... well then. "I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also. -áAnd as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all." |
Makru Sharvas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 17:52:00 -
[48] - Quote
Their can be no lasting capitulation between the most righteous Amarr empire and those heathenish infidels who have yet to be reclaimed, any concession of peace is simply a positioning tactic to further the reclaiming and re-establish inevitable imperial supremacy. |
Lucien Rouen
2650
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 14:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Everyone knows that literal peace will not occur anytime soon. They also know that things will continue to be relatively 'stable' for the time being, as well. This entire discussion seems rather pointless when faced with those two notions. The only peace you can attain must be found within yourself, not from outside sources. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1244
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 00:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: War is Peace.
And Stupidity is Enlightment. Right. Thanks. Now go home. |
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1244
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 00:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good. You had the chance to do that in 110. You didn't take it. You don't get a second chance, because they'll have prepared defenses precisely to prevent that sort of thing happening a second time. Getting that far in the future would take a siege, something the State navy doesn't have the numbers for. Amarr does, though. But CONCORD won't allow that kind of escalation. We didn't take this chance, because we did believe gallenteans... again, when they have signed the treaty, that our Home Planet will become State territory. But gallenteans broke their word and treaty, as they always do.
Any peace treaty with gallenteans is just giving them an opening and opportunity to strike into less defended spot. Any peace solution is advantage to Gallenteans and disadvantage to Caldari.
We must not fall for this again, and don't take their "hand of peace", while they are hiding their second hand with a knife behind their backs. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
940
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 02:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Aedre Lafisques wrote:The quick answer is definitely yes.
-I'll add that I agree with some of the other posters that we're assuming you mean peace, rather than stability. The empire war is far too stable.
What we need now, is a full scale attack on Federation with support of Navy. I'd say, just Navy attack on the Federation without support of capsuleers. From all directions and at once, go all YC110 on them, decapitate this snake, destroy both Senate, Presidential offices and headquarters of their navies. Then cut ALL the communication lines with gallentean worlds. This will end the war for good. You had the chance to do that in 110. You didn't take it. You don't get a second chance, because they'll have prepared defenses precisely to prevent that sort of thing happening a second time. Getting that far in the future would take a siege, something the State navy doesn't have the numbers for. Amarr does, though. But CONCORD won't allow that kind of escalation. We didn't take this chance, because we did believe gallenteans... again, when they have signed the treaty, that our Home Planet will become State territory. But gallenteans broke their word and treaty, as they always do. Any peace treaty with gallenteans is just giving them an opening and opportunity to strike into less defended spot. Any peace solution is advantage to Gallenteans and disadvantage to Caldari. We must not fall for this again, and don't take their "hand of peace", while they are hiding their second hand with a knife behind their backs. ... Don't raise to the bait, Claudia, its not worth it.... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Lucien Rouen
3189
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 05:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote: ... Don't raise to the bait, Claudia, its not worth it....
A quick perusal of the IGS makes it seem as if you are incapable of not taking bait. Or giving it. Or you are just bored an awful lot. |
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