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Otuk Andven
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.
Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.
Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.
The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.
And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning? |
Torneach Structor
Showup Fleet
32
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK
Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?
Like, seriously.
Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate. |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Biohazard. Ineluctable.
182
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Join up with Eve Uni, Rifterlings or Brave newbies, just to name some of the great corps accepting new players.
This game is impossible to pvp and thrive in without the knowledge of others. And, a hell of a lot more fun to play with other people who want to pvp.
Also, buy or have a headset |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
8607
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Will set you back 1m.
People throw 1m around in Jita Local many times a day. ~ Please support a yellow jumpsuit for me (and everyone else). Thank you! ~ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24112
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die. Yeah, no. For a new player, the average T1 frigate is going to set you back 1GÇô2M. This is well within their grasp to earn.
Quote:And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning? Actually, no-one really wonders that. It's hardly surprising with the bad advice being handed out in the newbcorps, with the tutorials being entirely centred around missions, and with the difficulty to get new players to jump into proper player corps (where they would get frigates for free, even at the massively inflated costs you're quoting).
But the minute cost of a T1 frigate isn't really a reason why that happens, no.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
66921
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20437
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
One word : Derptron
Under 2.5M isk, lethal in force.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4322
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bull****. =][= |
Otuk Andven
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low.
I'll admit I wasn't really building up my skills on the right stuff then but even now I can only make 30m an hour doing nullsec anomalies. As far as I can tell those 100m/hr are the faction ships speed running the missions and choosing good pay-outs.
Torneach Structor wrote:Otuk Andven wrote:an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M? Like, seriously. Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/33386391/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/33285953/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/32874574/
Fine the Kestrals were actually about 6m but my point still stands.
Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance |
Pj Harvey
Ship spinners inc
46
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil.
CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon. |
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Torneach Structor
Showup Fleet
32
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Posted - 2014.08.27 18:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance
So get friends and overwhelm a cocky dude in a cruiser with cheap frigates.
I think a rather powerful modern nullsec entity did something like that when it was just starting out... |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1600
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.
Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.
Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.
The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.
And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?
Half the player base ends up in mining/missions because of the tutorial, TBH.
A T1 fit frigate should come in under 3 mil. Epic Space Cat |
Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote: Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.
you're doing this wrong
Otuk Andven wrote: Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.
this? you're also doing it wrong
Otuk Andven wrote: The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.
this? still doing it wrong
1. T1 frig doesn't need T2 modules :) go cheap
2. I was making ~ 70 mil/hr in 2 months in an Armageddon (not navy, just the plain one), see, you have these skills, as the skills go up, ship ability does too. Try it :)
3. I neither mission nor mine to fund my pvp activities. There's this game mechanic, it's called Planetary Interaction or PI for short. You should research it. Sure it'll take ~30 days of training away from learning those ship skills you seem to lack, but then you no longer need to "grind" isk.
TL;DR You're doing it wrong, research is your friend. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7825
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.
Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.
Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.
The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.
And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?
Compared to when i started, EVE is SPEWING isk and pvp is cheaper than ever because t1 ships are actually useful.
I have a corp mate who was introduced to the game last year. We helped him with like 30 mil to buy skill books, told him to download eve mon and EFT, and a few weeks later I loaned him a Maelstrom. He did the rest himself. Within a few weeks he was flying a Machariel with meta4 guns bought with incursion isk (gotten from using my maelstrom) and was flying that in fleets make 100+ mil an hour.
I'll say again, he bought a pirate faction ship within weeks of starting on the strength of a 30 mil isk gift and a loaned Maelstrom. It took me MONTHS of mission running in 2007/2008 to buy my 1st Empire faction BS (A Navy Raven) and that was with my buddy who introduced me to the game selling it to me for less than what it was worth.
A Few short DAYS of training puts you into a ship that can do faction warfare missions and pvp (you can make isk pvping in FW), there was none of that when I started. Getting into pvp in a sustainable way is way way easy now, I used to have to take breaks from faction warfare to mission up more isk, now you don't even have to do that.
This is the problem with CCP making things easier for people. new people will come in, not having the context of the past, think things are 'too hard' and keep begging CCP to make things easier still.
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Otuk Andven
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Leoric Firesword wrote:
3. I neither mission nor mine to fund my pvp activities. There's this game mechanic, it's called Planetary Interaction or PI for short. You should research it. Sure it'll take ~30 days of training away from learning those ship skills you seem to lack, but then you no longer need to "grind" isk.
TL;DR You're doing it wrong, research is your friend.
Only place I've found PI to be worth it is null sec.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7825
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
No you didn't just link Paul Otichoda fits did you?
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
660
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Torneach Structor wrote:Otuk Andven wrote:an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M? Like, seriously. Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.
Meta IV modules maybe? |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
421
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
10m is nothing, I lose 30 if I get podded. Sod the younglings, think of the bitter vets.
To the OP: Join brave alliance. Get free ships. |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. |
Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:Leoric Firesword wrote:
3. I neither mission nor mine to fund my pvp activities. There's this game mechanic, it's called Planetary Interaction or PI for short. You should research it. Sure it'll take ~30 days of training away from learning those ship skills you seem to lack, but then you no longer need to "grind" isk.
TL;DR You're doing it wrong, research is your friend.
Only place I've found PI to be worth it is null sec.
WH's work quite nicely too. I've heard (but not looked for myself) that low sec is ok. If you're lucky you can even find some non-crappy planets in highsec.
Again, it comes down to research. in game, or out of game someone needs to do leg work to make anything worth while. Sometimes you get lucky and someone does that for you, sometimes you gotta suck it up and do it yourself. |
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Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go.
If you could find away for said noob not to get flashie status this might work, otherwise watch to noobs go flashie and die |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11121
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nonsense. I buy ~600 T1 frigates and fittings at a time and get them shipped out to 0.0 for less than 1.2m ISK per frigate. The frigates and fittings themselves cost ~400k ISK each and 2/3 of the cost is in shipping, the main reason why our alliance bears the cost. With those ships, our newbies can take part in any fleet op that doesn't require a jump drive or a black ops bridge.
You're taking the cost of a frigate with a tight T2 fit and assuming that that's what newbies would fly. Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
593
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low.
with max skills, multiple shiny ships, and cherry picking thanks to high standings yea it is possible. 6 months in, probably not, although I will agree that 15mil is a bit too low.
Torneach Structor wrote:Otuk Andven wrote:an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M? Like, seriously. Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.
with t2 and some meta 4 it isn't all that hard to hit 10m per t1 frig. although it might not be the most cost effective way to fit a t1 frig.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4324
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. Or do what we do,
shoot them in the face.
Then tell them why we shot them in the face [because eve].
Then (assuming they haven't acuseed us of having psychological disorders and/or wished death upon us and/or our loved ones) teach them how to shoot others in the face.
=][= |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. Or do what we do, shoot them in the face. Then tell them why we shot them in the face [because eve]. Then (assuming they haven't acuseed us of having psychological disorders and/or wished death upon us and/or our loved ones) teach them how to shoot others in the face.
Again, it's a question of accessibility. For new players, you make it super easy to do mining/missions but have them jump hurdles to get into PvP, whether it is the simple cost, the more complex learnings of properly fitting ships and tactics, just getting their butts to a proper place to engage in this activity, and then getting their faces mashed in until they eventually figure it out.
Sure, vets can say to nut up, but I get the feeling that most of you would agree that finding a good system to get new players fully engaged in PvP right away would be a good thing for this game.
Maybe it's too theme park of a concept but maybe it needs to be extended just a little bit for new players to get them more engaged with PvP right away. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
172
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. You can always do that on the test server.
You should never be able to do that on Tranquility and here is why:
Combat with ships you can't lose is like Poker without money. It's not really the same and it makes it extremely pointless in my eyes.
It's like you focus on a single engagement and completely forget about the big war around you which forms the rest and the actually important and interesting part of the game.
It's also a bit like WOW duel arena stuff, actually like the crap meaningless PvP in every other game out there.
EVE is not about casual fair 1v1 or team eSports BS you find everywhere else. This is about WAR where you take every chance to sneak up on your enemy with superior force and club him over the head from behind! People who don't get that are in general really bad at EVE. There are a lot of this people in EVE, people who say things like "sportsmanship" or "fair fight". I think they are in the wrong game. I don't say they should go, I just say they should shut up, accept their role as prey and stop to try to destroy this unique and brilliant game with their stupid ideas.
I may have digressed a bit, but that's what you get for mentioning "holographic training"... sorry the Code ALWAYS wins |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1054
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote:And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning? I would imagine because people tell them stupid **** like this:Otuk Andven wrote:Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs
Pj Harvey wrote:CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon. You aren't supposed to eat the tinfoil. [witty image] - Stream |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7828
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. Or do what we do, shoot them in the face. Then tell them why we shot them in the face [because eve]. Then (assuming they haven't acuseed us of having psychological disorders and/or wished death upon us and/or our loved ones) teach them how to shoot others in the face. Again, it's a question of accessibility. For new players, you make it super easy to do mining/missions but have them jump hurdles to get into PvP, whether it is the simple cost, the more complex learnings of properly fitting ships and tactics, just getting their butts to a proper place to engage in this activity, and then getting their faces mashed in until they eventually figure it out. Sure, vets can say to nut up, but I get the feeling that most of you would agree that finding a good system to get new players fully engaged in PvP right away would be a good thing for this game. Maybe it's too theme park of a concept but maybe it needs to be extended just a little bit for new players to get them more engaged with PvP right away.
CCP did that with faction warfare. They did it with making tech1 ships viable. They did it by removing learning skills. They did it by adding boosters than not only speed up new player (and ONLY new player) training but by boosting the dps they do. The did it by introducing easier to skill into various ships. They did it by lowering clone replacement costs etc etc etc.
If it takes more than the above to get a player to pvp, pvp ain't in the cards for them. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20447
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:You aren't supposed to eat the tinfoil. Poor Dinsdale, his stash must be running low judging by the amount of people who're dipping into it recently.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go. You can always do that on the test server. You should never be able to do that on Tranquility and here is why: Combat with ships you can't lose is like Poker without money. It's not really the same and it makes it extremely pointless in my eyes. It's like you focus on a single engagement and completely forget about the big war around you which forms the rest and the actually important and interesting part of the game. It's also a bit like WOW duel arena stuff, actually like the crap meaningless PvP in every other game out there. EVE is not about casual fair 1v1 or team eSports BS you find everywhere else. This is about WAR where you take every chance to sneak up on your enemy with superior force and club him over the head from behind! People who don't get that are in general really bad at EVE. There are a lot of this people in EVE, people who say things like "sportsmanship" or "fair fight". I think they are in the wrong game. I don't say they should go, I just say they should shut up, accept their role as prey and stop to try to destroy this unique and brilliant game with their stupid ideas. I may have digressed a bit, but that's what you get for mentioning "holographic training"... sorry
I look at it as more about steering new players to PvP. The common complaint I see with the tutorials, which I agree with, is that it is very focused on PvE and it seems natural that new players pursue this activity initially. This is a PvP game and it's unfortunate that this component is neglected during the tutorials.
Whether it's "holographic training" or some other mechanism to get new players into PvP quickly without a large perceived barrier, I think the more new player retention you might see.
Just a new players look at things. I'm fine nutting up old school. |
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