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Feanor Feuergeist
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.08.27 21:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Greeting fellow capsulers. So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.
Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack. My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us. This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why? |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1058
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Posted - 2014.08.27 22:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because I am a rockstar, and that's my buy order for crack.
Well, I've done this to annoy the other guy, because I'm annoyed by the other guy, and to force his price up to the point where he gives up and goes away, and then drop my price back down. [witty image] - Stream |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3473
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Posted - 2014.08.27 23:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Every market rival you demoralize to the point they do not log on is a major strategic victory. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
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Posted - 2014.08.28 01:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
In this scenario, I just turn the "drug dealer" and help the rockstar with his addiction on crack.
If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD) |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
393
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Posted - 2014.08.28 02:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I do this to people.
I'm not fighting for the product margain like you are.
When you figure out how I still made profit off it you'll still be wrong. |
O'nira
United System's Commonwealth
31
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Posted - 2014.08.28 03:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:I do this to people.
I'm not fighting for the product margain like you are.
When you figure out how I still made profit off it you'll still be wrong.
yeah you are truly a market wizard |
Caimi Nulang
The Blue Lobster Project
1
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Posted - 2014.08.28 03:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you are cutting the margin to nothing. The people who are still raising the price probably already have items that they have bought at the lower price. They also have sell orders that they are taking profit on. If you do anything, you will only move the price of the item up overall and make the people with sell orders ready even more money as they adjust them to match the current market rate. Raise them too much and someone will start buying cheaper from another market, ship them to you and fill all of your buy orders and then list sell orders at your buy order price. Now you are losing money. Trading is marathon not a sprint. There are people in these markets that have been active for years. They know things about their markets that you might not even know how to ask about. Good luck. |
GreenSeed
1153
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Posted - 2014.08.28 04:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
maybe, just maybe.. the person making the buy order wants the item for use and wont be flipping it. buying off a sell order with the overprice is garbage if you are a 'big time' buyer. so what you do is, you open eve central, look at jita prices and set a buy at that price. and you go to sleep...
knowing when not to fight a buy order and let the natural market flow kill it, is skill you should get to V ASAP if you want to get far as a station trader. |
Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
5
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Posted - 2014.08.28 05:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you want to buy something, it saves time. Daytrading is not the only form of trading you know.
When I buy something, both the buy order price and the sell order price are low compared to what I expect to sell the item for. I don't really care if I get the item at the buy order price or sell order price.
The second thing, and the one that nobody ever gets, is that a higher buy order price will induce sellers to sell to the buy order more often. Plus it will deter a portion of the 0,01 iskers from bidding over. Some of them realise that someone like me is there and they will wait till my order is gone, which it will be during the same day. There's nothing they can do about it anyway - except writing the same forum posts over and over |
Gor Yo
State War Academy Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2014.08.28 10:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Because I am a rockstar, and that's my buy order for crack.
Well, I've done this to annoy the other guy, because I'm annoyed by the other guy, and to force his price up to the point where he gives up and goes away, and then drop my price back down.
I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"? They arent cancelling their order, or dropping the price considerably. They just dont up their price after your last big change, but keep an eye on it since they have money invested in the item. At least that is what I do, and the moment you drop your price to the previous value, you will be undercut again. |
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1062
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Posted - 2014.08.28 10:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"? Ramping the price up encourages them not to bother fighting you. And not everyone is a 24/7 0.01ISKer. [witty image] - Stream |
Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
5
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Posted - 2014.08.28 10:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote: They arent cancelling their order, or dropping the price considerably. They just dont up their price after your last big change, but keep an eye on it since they have money invested in the item. Exactly, so everybody's happy, both the daytrader and the speculative trader. The system works.
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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
609
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Posted - 2014.08.28 17:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Artificial inflation is the core to manipulating the market in EVE. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3480
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Posted - 2014.08.29 00:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:If you want to buy something, it saves time to be aggressive. Daytrading is not the only form of trading you know - some people just want the item within 5-24 hours. When I buy something (as a station trader), both the buy order price and the sell order price are low compared to what I expect to sell the item for. I don't really care if I get the item at the buy order price or sell order price. The second thing, and the one that nobody ever gets, is that a higher buy order price will induce sellers to sell to the buy order more often. Plus it will deter a portion of the 0,01 iskers from bidding over. Some of them realise that a trader like me has arrived and they will wait till my order is gone, which it will be during the same day - along with those that folllowed me up. So be patient, there's nothing you can do about it anyway - except writing the same forum posts over and over It can even work to your advantage, if the price drops down to the same level the day after.
Confirming I often do this.
Let's say I'm almost out of a datacore and intend to use 200 of them in the next few days. Let's say the Dodixie prices are 110k on sell orders and 90k on buy orders, and I want them in a specific station 5j away from Dodixie.
I could place a buy order at 91k, wait (and hope) for it to fill, then ship the goods to my invention hub. That's the cheap option.
Or I could buy from sell orders and ship the goods (or pay a useful idiot to ship them for me via courier contracts).
Or I could post a buy order at 112-113k at the station I want the goods at and get an intra-regional trader to do everything for me.
Or I could post a buy order at 100k at the desired station, and wait/hope for it to fill.
What I actually do in practice, is I will estimate the opportunity cost of not having those datacores when I need them, and I'll consider how likely the order is to fill under each of these scenarios. I'll also consider the time taken by couriers to deliver the goods. That informs my decision.
So if you see a buy order for 200 datacores in the hub at 100k, it may not be a trader at all, but an end user with a pressing but non-urgent requirement for the goods for personal use.
Of course this also happens with much larger orders than 22m worth of datacores. I recently had buy orders for billions worth of tech 2 components where, because time was of the essence, I was willing to significantly overpay. The opportunity cost of having my production lines idle when I had identified a *very* profitable short-term market to get into was higher than my trading losses incurred by overpaying. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
310
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Posted - 2014.08.29 15:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Feanor Feuergeist wrote:Greeting fellow capsulers. So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.
Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack. My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us. This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why?
Well... The 0.01isk game is the short game. A lot of people see the market as a game of minutes or days. When arbitrage trading theyGÇÖre afraid of losing that 10% margin by waiting too long to buy or sell because from looking at it on micro level they see the market fluctuating very quickly and sometimes wildly.
There is another game. When you start looking at the market in terms of seasons then it becomes a lot easier. Slower, but easier.
You obviously have to churn a lot more money to play the long game in order to make a decent income out of it but it is possible with planning to make a perfectly acceptable income without ever raising a buy order or lowering a sell order, and with a LOT less time spent on it.
The real way to make money on the market, though, it to use good timing to corner it. You see this a lot if you look at the price history when you can see that someone bought ALL of something and put it straight back on the market for double what they bought it for. Manufacturers will eventually catch up with them and force the price back down but in the lead-time it takes for that they have their profit and can dump the rest of it back on the market for what they paid as buy orders will go up.
ThatGÇÖs the easy money in EVE but it requires a lot of money to get into that game and it requires making skillful decisions so you donGÇÖt end up holding the hot potato. Tip for manufacturers is to watch for those blips because you can surf that wave too while it lasts. ;)
T- |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5501
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Posted - 2014.08.29 15:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Feanor Feuergeist wrote:Greeting fellow capsulers. So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.
Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack. My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us. This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why? Well... The 0.01isk game is the short game. A lot of people see the market as a game of minutes or days. When arbitrage trading theyGÇÖre afraid of losing that 10% margin by waiting too long to buy or sell because from looking at it on micro level they see the market fluctuating very quickly and sometimes wildly. There is another game. When you start looking at the market in terms of seasons then it becomes a lot easier. Slower, but easier. T-
QFT.
Open a market chart, read price, set order where price is trending towards, profit from AFK. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Juneau Chokis
Roses for the Dead
0
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Posted - 2014.08.31 04:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
You'll see that happen often if you update too aggressively.
An item that moves at 10 units a day but has buy orders updated every 10 minutes? I sure as hell am going to crush that margin to the point that I don't have to check the order every 10 minutes any longer. 1% profit on an item is better than 10% profit on 0 items. 0.01 ISKing is just idiotic at times.
Of course aggressively making margins tight also makes you susceptible to market fluctuations - in the end you could lose ISK if you're lazy on reselling and aren't able to get rid of the item fast enough before the sell price drops.
Another big thing to consider are corp/faction standings. While some item might look barely worth trading to you, it might be worth trading for someone that has 0.3% less broker fees than you. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
243
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Posted - 2014.09.01 02:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Gor Yo wrote:I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"? Ramping the price up encourages them not to bother fighting you. And not everyone is a 24/7 0.01ISKer.
If you realize that some people in game have stocks that are equal to several months worth of trading in products, try to realize why they would care to go deep with a high buy order, the average price will just go up a little bit. Especially if you are buying all over EVE and just 1 hub is spiking up. Over time the trader with the multiple month stock can keep up the game as long as he / she wants (the profit is secure for several months). By that time, the trader stepping in will be long annoyed and will leave the market alone, since he believes no profit can be made. |
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