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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
363
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Posted - 2014.08.30 18:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jack Reafman wrote:And you're failing to consider something really kind of important.... New Players. If BPOs were put in for the rookie ships it's likely they'd be pretty low in material costs, and the BPOs themselves wouldn't be very high priced. New players, lacking the funds to purchase the really nice reall Hawhawhawhaw... Malcanis' Law, Hawhawhaw
And yes, there is really nothing between making rookie frigs and building T3s and surely no max skilled Industrial can price compete with those new players
Stop creating silly comparisons, it does not work.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
172
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Posted - 2014.08.30 18:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.
Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.
Actually being able to manufacture Rookie Ships might take some burden off of the server.
Think about it how many Rookie Ships are spawned at any given moment in the environment because a Capsuleer enters a station in a Pod?
Taking away the spawn rate of Rookie Ships inside of stations might help reduce lag.
Being able to mass produce Rookie Ships should be limited to 500 per Capsuleer per month thought to keep the market from being flooded.
If you enter into a station you can opt to purchase a Rookie Ship for 1000 ISK or not by simply going to the Market and purchasing one.
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
363
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Posted - 2014.08.30 18:47:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hy Dryson Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
685
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Posted - 2014.08.30 18:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:That would be a very bad trade. The two cases where it would be valuable are: 1. Players want to do lol-fleets with tens or hundreds of rookie ships, or 2. Players want to prefit a bunch of disposable cyno ships up in station for their corporation. There may be other cases. Emergent play and all that.
#1: You come in your pod to the meet-up point and get your Rookie ship for free. For such a fleet you also need lots of different Rookie ships and every pilot fits their Rookie ships after their own liking. Which turns out into that some people have to get their own Rookie ship after all by station hopping or arriving in a pod when your supplies run out. You also need to reship pretty regularly if you do these fleets in lots of different locations, where you get free Rookie ships because you land in a pod. And please don't give me "Prefit Rookie ships for lol fleets" -- that would go against the very principle of a lol fleet. #2: You use normal frigates, which don't require cargo expanders and if you use production for the rookie ships, require the same amount of effort. And you already have the proper frigate BPO researched and ready.
Both points disproved. Next? |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
55
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Posted - 2014.08.30 19:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Both points disproved. Next? Rookie Ships are the only player-controllable ships in the game without either a BPO or BPC available (excluding "special" ships like the Ishukone Watch Scorpion and similar, of course). Adding a BP for Rookie Ships would simply be bringing them in line with every other player ship in the game.
And yes, I'm including the Pirate-faction Rookie Ships in that statement. Making the BPC's for those available in the pirate LP stores would be preferable, as well, but I'm on a campaign for the standard four Rookie Ships, first. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2503
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Posted - 2014.08.30 20:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Both points disproved. Next? My response was directly pointed at your comment about "Bad Trade". It is not a bad trade to use a cheaper ship (the rookie ship) for a cyno rather than a T1 frigate which costs 200k/ship.
There is also a market for batch processing of rookie ships for lol-fleets. Purchase 120 of them in Jita (+mods) and ship them to wherever you want to run lol fleet. You would purchase and ship the mods the same way, so why not add the rookie ships as well?
Done. No fuss, no buss. Fleet ready to go. If I were to get a lol-fleet ready for my guys, that's how I'd do it because it would be the fastest way to get it going.
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w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
86
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Posted - 2014.08.30 22:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rookie ships should be removed from insurance and just available from aura tutorial ... Simple fix Is that my two cents or yours? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2507
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Posted - 2014.08.30 23:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
You know what? I am absolutely on board with this whole "Rookie Ship BPO" thing.
Empire Faction rookie ship BPOs are a thing that need to happen. As it is, players are already pod-docking to get them in large quantities. Something like this would remove the need for pod-docking - thus decreasing the server load from the repeated docking/undocking and freeing up pilot time for something less god-awful tedious.
It's worth mentioning that I routinely use rookie ships as high-capacity shuttles. If I need to take something somewhere and a regular shuttle just won't do, I buy a rookie ship off the market and sell it at my destination.
I'm a little bit ... you know ... against the Pirate Rookie Ship BPC thing because those were special-edition Fanfest ships, but that's for another thread.
As a side note, if the ISDs will grant some leeway:
Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out. All you're doing is posting forum memes you clearly don't understand (Malcanis' Law for one) and trying to poke "logical fallacy, so no" into places where there isn't even a logical fallacy. OP has presented a decent idea, made logically-sound arguments and you're busy flailing your arms and basically making yourself look ... well ... touched.
Time to leave, Fer'isam. Let the adults hash this one out. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.08.31 01:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I'm a little bit ... you know ... against the Pirate Rookie Ship BPC thing because those were special-edition Fanfest ships, but that's for another thread. I've been under the impression they were also given out in the occasional "new account signup bonus" deals, akin to the special exploration frigs. If they were only given out during Fanfest, though, then I think they would fall into the same category of "special" as the other non-BP gift ships. I retract my statement, then, regarding them being available as BPC's.
I'm still going to be pushing for the four standard Rookie Ships to be available as BP's, though! |
Asheava
Darwinbots
1
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Posted - 2014.08.31 02:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out.
He's done this sort of thing on every single thread he's commented on. I don't think he's ever said something positive. Best I can find is slightly neutral. I think everyone would be well advised to just ignore the trolls and move on with their lives.
Oh, and yes, I support this idea :D |
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
27
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Posted - 2014.08.31 02:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. The cost of replacing anything is time. Someone else has to put the time into mining, building and/or getting meta 4 drops. Same with rookie ships, you can buy them and someone else puts in the time of farming them.
Now, I would love to see BPCs of the pirate rookie ships. They're just so much fun... |
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
45
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Posted - 2014.08.31 02:46:21 -
[42] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. The cost of replacing anything is time. Someone else has to put the time into mining, building and/or getting meta 4 drops. Same with rookie ships, you can buy them and someone else puts in the time of farming them.
Now, I would love to see BPCs of the pirate rookie ships. They're just so much fun... |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
369
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Posted - 2014.09.01 11:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out. All you're doing is posting forum memes you clearly don't understand (Malcanis' Law for one) and trying to poke "logical fallacy, so no" into places where there isn't even a logical fallacy. OP has presented a decent idea, made logically-sound arguments and you're busy flailing your arms and basically making yourself look ... well ... touched.
Oh, and stop misusing Hume's Guillotine. Calling out a bad idea or pointing at bad arguments is contributing.
And can you explain to me how Malcanis' Law does not apply here, cause as far as I see, older players profit from new production options (from their budged and skills) much more then new players, who are taken again as hostage for bad arguments.
And logical fallacies speak for themselves, if I am wrong, point it out, explain why and I will learn something. Just saying, 'hey you made one yourself - your are of now use' Doesn't help anyone either.
And btw, T2 Rookie Frigs are, guess what - not Rookie Frigs anymore. If you strip all the Rookie features of the frig so you can get your BPs, guess what, then it's not a Rookie ship anymore either. If you want to erase them, fine, then you can have your BPs, but stop calling them Rookie Frigs then and you have to change a lot of mechanics, just so you can add one more BP to the list.
I have thousands of 1500 runs BPs and with decent manufacturing skills almost none pay off to actually produce without loss, that's how high competition is, you really think those BP will make a difference to anyone ? - And this totally neglecting for the moment the fact that you can get them free at any time.
A bad idea is a bad idea, no matter how much you like it, wish it could be meaningful or dress up to convince others.
Cheers
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
424
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Posted - 2014.09.01 11:39:09 -
[44] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out. All you're doing is posting forum memes you clearly don't understand (Malcanis' Law for one) and trying to poke "logical fallacy, so no" into places where there isn't even a logical fallacy. OP has presented a decent idea, made logically-sound arguments and you're busy flailing your arms and basically making yourself look ... well ... touched.
Oh, and stop misusing Hume's Guillotine. Calling out a bad idea or pointing at bad arguments is contributing.
And can you explain to me how Malcanis' Law does not apply here, cause as far as I see, older players profit from new production options (from their budged and skills) much more then new players, who are taken again as hostage for bad arguments.
And logical fallacies speak for themselves, if I am wrong, point it out, explain why and I will learn something. Just saying, 'hey you made one yourself - your are of now use' Doesn't help anyone either.
And btw, T2 Rookie Frigs are, guess what - not Rookie Frigs anymore. If you strip all the Rookie features of the frig so you can get your BPs, guess what, then it's not a Rookie ship anymore either. If you want to erase them, fine, then you can have your BPs, but stop calling them Rookie Frigs then and you have to change a lot of mechanics, just so you can add one more BP to the list.
I have thousands of 1500 runs BPs and with decent manufacturing skills almost none pay off to actually produce without loss, that's how high competition is, you really think those BP will make a difference to anyone ? - And this totally neglecting for the moment the fact that you can get them free at any time.
A bad idea is a bad idea, no matter how much you like it, wish it could be meaningful or dress up to convince others.
Cheers
Join the BIG Lottery (see Bio ingame), _oldest and only _[u]non-profit Lottery in EVE[/u], every second Monday.
Wire ISK to BIG GAMES for tickets !
Join the Channel, have fun, being a lucky winner is optional ,)
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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.09.01 14:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Their demand isn't high enough to be a source of manufacturing income, but that isn't the point, anyway. The point is about having fun and making them easier to get in bulk quantity.
Rookie ships are the only non-limited-edition ships without a blueprint. Give them a BP and let those who wish to use them do so. Nobody is going to force anyone into using them. You don't even have to get the BP if you don't want to. For those of us who do, it would be nice to have it available. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
146
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Posted - 2014.09.01 14:34:35 -
[46] - Quote
Their demand isn't high enough to be a source of manufacturing income, but that isn't the point, anyway. The point is about having fun and making them easier to get in bulk quantity.
Rookie ships are the only non-limited-edition ships without a blueprint. Give them a BP and let those who wish to use them do so. Nobody is going to force anyone into using them. You don't even have to get the BP if you don't want to. For those of us who do, it would be nice to have it available.
Edit :: By the way, Feri, I really appreciate all the bumps you're giving this idea. You've been absolutely instrumental in keeping this thread going. Thank you. End Edit
-áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
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Clementina
Coreli Corporation
166
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Posted - 2014.09.02 06:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
There might be some use for this idea for people who have a different newbie ship preference than their nationality. It would have to be limited to BPCs since a BPO would allow someone to run off a million Ibii for free. And they would have to be low-run BPCs at that to keep everything sane unless newbie ships somehow start costing materials. |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
186
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Posted - 2014.09.02 06:09:49 -
[48] - Quote
There might be some use for this idea for people who have a different newbie ship preference than their nationality. It would have to be limited to BPCs since a BPO would allow someone to run off a million Ibii for free. And they would have to be low-run BPCs at that to keep everything sane unless newbie ships somehow start costing materials. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2610
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 10:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Clementina wrote:There might be some use for this idea for people who have a different newbie ship preference than their nationality. It would have to be limited to BPCs since a BPO would allow someone to run off a million Ibii for free. And they would have to be low-run BPCs at that to keep everything sane unless newbie ships somehow start costing materials.
That's kind of the idea here ...
BPO + (IDK, 1k Trit) = New Rookie Ship
This will not replace the "died, have no more ships, get freebie from Pend Insurance" mechanic that we currently have ... but make it easier to get the 100+ rookie ships for lol-roams (or pre-fit cynoboats, etc) without having to do the current dock/undock routine to get them all. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2646
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 10:16:34 -
[50] - Quote
Clementina wrote:There might be some use for this idea for people who have a different newbie ship preference than their nationality. It would have to be limited to BPCs since a BPO would allow someone to run off a million Ibii for free. And they would have to be low-run BPCs at that to keep everything sane unless newbie ships somehow start costing materials.
That's kind of the idea here ...
BPO + (IDK, 1k Trit) = New Rookie Ship
This will not replace the "died, have no more ships, get freebie from Pend Insurance" mechanic that we currently have ... but make it easier to get the 100+ rookie ships for lol-roams (or pre-fit cynoboats, etc) without having to do the current dock/undock routine to get them all.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.09.05 11:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
I've added a to;Dr of at least my own opinions to the first post. Essentially, access to Rookie Ship BP's would be for fun and convenience. Nobody will get rich from them, but having them would save people time and would bring them more in line with all other non-limited ships in the game. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
146
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Posted - 2014.09.05 11:45:22 -
[52] - Quote
I've added a to;Dr of at least my own opinions to the first post. Essentially, access to Rookie Ship BP's would be for fun and convenience. Nobody will get rich from them, but having them would save people time and would bring them more in line with all other non-limited ships in the game.
-áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
380
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Posted - 2014.09.05 12:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Their demand isn't high enough to be a source of manufacturing income, but that isn't the point, anyway. The point is about having fun and making them easier to get in bulk quantity. Which you can already, theya re beign sold ingreat numbers for under 7k - you think you can produce them that cheap and get them as easy as: click - buy. Not to mention, that even the 50 ISk buy orders are boing used, cause it's more profitable to sell them for that then to trash them ... which I continously do - trashing.
Quote:Rookie ships are the only non-limited ... Should have stopped there, rest doesn't make sense bacuase of it.
And in regards to your lost post, 'could be fun' as the sole consideration is really a criteria for game changes ...... NOT - EVER.
PS: And I don't mind bumping it, the posts are not for your nor solely for the suggestions benefit, if you haven't noticed.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
424
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Posted - 2014.09.05 12:22:37 -
[54] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Their demand isn't high enough to be a source of manufacturing income, but that isn't the point, anyway. The point is about having fun and making them easier to get in bulk quantity. Which you can already, they are being sold in great numbers (just under 3500 ISK, 2500+ Velator) - you think you can produce them that cheap and get them as easy as: click - buy. Not to mention, that even the 50-5000 ISK buy orders are being used, cause it's more profitable to sell them for that then to trash them ... which I continously do - trashing.
Quote:Rookie ships are the only non-limited ... Should have stopped there, rest doesn't make sense bacuase of it.
And in regards to your lost post, 'could be fun' as the sole consideration is really a criteria for game changes ...... NOT - EVER.
PS: And I don't mind bumping it, the posts are not for your nor solely for the suggestions benefit, if you haven't noticed.
Join the BIG Lottery (see Bio ingame), _oldest and only _[u]non-profit Lottery in EVE[/u], every second Monday.
Wire ISK to BIG GAMES for tickets !
Join the Channel, have fun, being a lucky winner is optional ,)
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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.09.06 00:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
I still don't see why you take such an issue with it. Your argument boils down to "you can get them for free and they're already cheap on the market."
You do understand that it wasn't so long ago that you couldn't get them on the market, right? Back when those discussions would pop up, the arguments were an earlier version of what you're saying: "Nobody will ever buy them because you can get them for free."
Except that, as history has shown, people do indeed buy them. Likewise, I believe that, should Rookie Ships become available via BP, history will show that people will also utilize the BP's for them. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
146
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Posted - 2014.09.06 00:53:34 -
[56] - Quote
I still don't see why you take such an issue with it. Your argument boils down to "you can get them for free and they're already cheap on the market."
You do understand that it wasn't so long ago that you couldn't get them on the market, right? Back when those discussions would pop up, the arguments were an earlier version of what you're saying: "Nobody will ever buy them because you can get them for free."
Except that, as history has shown, people do indeed buy them. Likewise, I believe that, should Rookie Ships become available via BP, history will show that people will also utilize the BP's for them.
-áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
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Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.09.09 03:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
I've updated my original post to include this information, but I'd like to point it out here, as well:
Every character starts with one manufacturing slot, even if they've never trained any manufacturing skills. Considering the type of ship it is, material reduction skills would (or should) be a non-issue, and other than a small increase in ISK cost due to the time-based fees, a non-manufacturer who wanted to acquire a decent number of these ships would not care if their runs took a day or two longer than those of a high-skill manufacturer.
So to those who have been saying that no manufacturer would waste their lines on these, perhaps not, but non-manufacturers may be able to take advantage of Rookie Ship BP's for their Rookie Ship fleets and similar. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
146
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Posted - 2014.09.09 03:41:32 -
[58] - Quote
I've updated my original post to include this information, but I'd like to point it out here, as well:
Every character starts with one manufacturing slot, even if they've never trained any manufacturing skills. Considering the type of ship it is, material reduction skills would (or should) be a non-issue, and other than a small increase in ISK cost due to the time-based fees, a non-manufacturer who wanted to acquire a decent number of these ships would not care if their runs took a day or two longer than those of a high-skill manufacturer.
So to those who have been saying that no manufacturer would waste their lines on these, perhaps not, but non-manufacturers may be able to take advantage of Rookie Ship BP's for their Rookie Ship fleets and similar.
-áTalk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
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Rockstede
30plus Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
50
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Posted - 2014.11.21 12:32:26 -
[59] - Quote
Right now I really wish I had the BPO to all 4, we were planning to have a Noob Ship thunderdome at some point and being able to run off 400 ships via industry methods *regardless of cost* would be a hell of a lot easier than docking and undocking 400 times. |
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:49:24 -
[60] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: PS: And I don't mind bumping it, the posts are not for your nor solely for the suggestions benefit, if you haven't noticed.
You have been trolled, masterfully. Has your superior intellect not yet worked out that simple fact? |
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