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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2493
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
We need more dedicated hull tanking ships in this game.
Change the Brutix rep bonus (which nobody uses) to a 4%/level Hull HP bonus. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
356
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Can you give sources to your claim ?
And how do you come by the HP per level trait, it is not used anywhere in the game as far as I remember or did you mean 4% resist per level - since this is used a lot. I also think that HP would be counted into the hull and not by skill level.
Anyway I am not criticising your suggestion, but would like more data to see if a change is necessary and if it makes any sense to do so. Also make sure you are not infringing on the Astarte or Brutix Navy Issue. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2493
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Posted - 2014.08.29 17:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
zkillboard has a great search feature. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=postmessage&t=370356&f=270
Also, the Astarte and BNI do not have a hull tanking bonus. So no interference there. |
Nariya Kentaya
The Pulsar Innovation Surely You're Joking
1504
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Can you give sources to your claim ?
And how do you come by the HP per level trait, it is not used anywhere in the game as far as I remember or did you mean 4% resist per level - since this is used a lot. I also think that HP would be counted into the hull and not by skill level.
Anyway I am not criticising your suggestion, but would like more data to see if a change is necessary and if it makes any sense to do so. Also make sure you are not infringing on the Astarte or Brutix Navy Issue. it doesnt have merit. yes a hull tanking ship would be funny/goofy/fun, but gallente are HULL TANKERS, specializing in active tanking, so not only would this ship having a different tanking method be weird, but to be buffer tanked on top of it would be completely against it. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2493
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Posted - 2014.08.29 17:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Can you give sources to your claim ?
And how do you come by the HP per level trait, it is not used anywhere in the game as far as I remember or did you mean 4% resist per level - since this is used a lot. I also think that HP would be counted into the hull and not by skill level.
Anyway I am not criticising your suggestion, but would like more data to see if a change is necessary and if it makes any sense to do so. Also make sure you are not infringing on the Astarte or Brutix Navy Issue. it doesnt have merit. yes a hull tanking ship would be funny/goofy/fun, but gallente are HULL TANKERS, specializing in active tanking, so not only would this ship having a different tanking method be weird, but to be buffer tanked on top of it would be completely against it. Proposal is to REPLACE the active tank (already on the Myrmidon) with hull tanking bonus. So, yes, the proposal does have merit.
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
357
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well, I just wanted to see where you are coming from, before I take a bite, just wanted to give you the chance to present me with reasons unbiased.
Well, here we are then, now to things you ignore or misrepresnt or misunderstand.
Astarte has T2 resists and more HP, the Brutix Navy Issue shares the same resist but has an internal 50% HP bonus in regards to structure and armor. You thereby infringe in their (buffer) tanking abilities, both are passive and built in. To move it to a skill level bonus does not change that fact.
To point to killboards and count all the CODE gank Brutixes and logi supported Fleet Brutixes is an argument from ignorance and from false evidence. Because those ships don't fit active tanks does not mean nobody uses active tanks.
Not to mention that killmails show the opposite of what you want to prove, a blown up ship not having active tank could be a direct indicator of active tanks not blowing up, but being used in the millions. Not showing up on KM says nothing, if not the contrary. But I am not the one assuming.
Facit: The observation is unfounded, the reasoning flawed and failes and the suggestion is unnecessary, if not to say useless.
-1 Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Feyrin
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
24
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Posted - 2014.08.29 17:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am not against this per se however as a more general design point I do think that bonuses generally should be moving away from HP bonuses and towards repair bonuses especially on smaller ships, as such I couldn't recommend this specific change. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2161
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Posted - 2014.08.29 18:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gallente are Armor ships.
If there is a Hull line it should be something like ORE or Jove when they finally invade and wipe us all out. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2497
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Posted - 2014.08.29 19:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Well, I just wanted to see where you are coming from, before I take a bite, just wanted to give you the chance to present me with reasons unbiased.
Well, here we are then, now to things you ignore or misrepresnt or misunderstand.
Astarte has T2 resists and more HP, the Brutix Navy Issue shares the same resist but has an internal 50% HP bonus in regards to structure and armor. You thereby infringe in their (buffer) tanking abilities, both are passive and built in. To move it to a skill level bonus does not change that fact.
To point to killboards and count all the CODE gank Brutixes and logi supported Fleet Brutixes is an argument from ignorance and from false evidence. Because those ships don't fit active tanks does not mean nobody uses active tanks.
Not to mention that killmails show the opposite of what you want to prove, a blown up ship not having active tank could be a direct indicator of active tanks not blowing up, but being used in the millions. Not showing up on KM says nothing, if not the contrary. But I am not the one assuming.
Facit: The observation is unfounded, the reasoning flawed and failes and the suggestion is unnecessary, if not to say useless.
-1 1. T2 resists make Astarte better for remote repping purposes. So, not infringing upon tanking abilities. They are DIFFERENT. 2. Navy brutix has 50% increase in ALL tank, not just hull tank. Your argument is like saying the 4%/level shield resist bonus of the Merlin infringes on the engagement envelope of the Hookbill. It doesn't. 3. I did not point to CODE. The killboard pointed to CODE because they're the ones who use (OK, die in) Brutixes the most.
Conclusion: Your arguments are unfounded. Your reasoning is flawed and fails in every respect. -1. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
360
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Posted - 2014.08.29 19:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:1. T2 resists make Astarte better for remote repping purposes. So, not infringing upon tanking abilities. They are DIFFERENT. 2. Navy brutix has 50% increase in ALL tank, not just hull tank. Your argument is like saying the 4%/level shield resist bonus of the Merlin infringes on the engagement envelope of the Hookbill. It doesn't. 3. I did not point to CODE. The killboard pointed to CODE because they're the ones who use (OK, die in) Brutixes the most. Conclusion: Your arguments are unfounded. Your reasoning is flawed and fails in every respect. -1. I am sorry to say, but you refuted nothing.
1.) An unrelated argument, it has nothing to do with local reps or HP buffer. You could make a comparison of the local rep bonus, but you didn't. T2 resist is not an argument, since it's a T2 trait. The argument I had are fitting options which could make them just the same for the purpose you have in mind, you didn't even recognize that.
2.) A bonus across the board doesn't even closely relate to the armor tanking abilities. Only the armor values count in comparison. Logic fail right there. The Hookbill and Merlin share no stats, another fail. To try and refute one fail with another fail by means of a parable is, what would you call that ??! The strawman also was right up front, sticking out of the field.
3.) No, you just left some means open for everyone to explore, looking like you presented evidence which everyone could also check but giving none, leaving everyone in limbo, you just looking clever without substance. So I took teh opposing position to point it out.
You still stand with an unfounded assumption on an empty field, smiles and all. You seem not even to have understood, that giving someones criticism a -1 doesn't really do the thread any good, and in respect of how things work, will, superficially passed by, be counted against the OP, which is you. . Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
27
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Posted - 2014.08.29 19:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hull is where ships should start losing module functionality, speed and agility, not tanking damage. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1554
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 19:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nope |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
64
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Posted - 2014.08.29 19:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Can you give sources to your claim ?
And how do you come by the HP per level trait, it is not used anywhere in the game as far as I remember or did you mean 4% resist per level - since this is used a lot. I also think that HP would be counted into the hull and not by skill level.
Anyway I am not criticising your suggestion, but would like more data to see if a change is necessary and if it makes any sense to do so. Also make sure you are not infringing on the Astarte or Brutix Navy Issue.
4% isn't used but 10% per level us used on a couple of Amarr ships for armor instead of hull. (legion, damnation, aug navy) |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
288
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 20:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Structure that is designed to take damage, is called armor. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2498
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 20:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
So bottom line is that you're saying that any T1 ship with a resist or HP bonus infringes on their higher Tier counterparts?
That's pretty much your argument, and what you're saying is that several T1 hulls including Merlins and Punishers infringe on their higher Tier counterparts.
If you're NOT saying that, then please differentiate between the specific recommendation in this thread and the other T1 hulls that receive buffer (and resist) tanking bonuses.
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Xercodo
Vector Galactic The Big Dirty
3746
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Here's the reasoning, it's about faction design styles.
The factions are split between 2 teams. Gallente and Minmatar are one, and Amarr and Caldari are the other.
-Each team has a shield and armor faction. -Each team has a guns, a drones, and a missiles faction.
The major difference is that the GM team is all focused on fast hit-and-run tactics. Their ships have local tanking bonuses with shield booster per level or armor rep amount per level. The AC team is about large scale fleet warfare. Their logi ships have superior tank capabilities but with the drawback of needing a cap buddy. Their tanks are skewed to having more EHP by having resistance bonuses.
So the point is, if you want EHP fly caldari or amarr. Otherwise fit an AAR or ASB and go nuts in a small gang of self tanked Gallente or Minmatar ships.
Besides, the brutix shouldn't be using plates or bulkheads, they make it slower and bulkier, and that ruins their dynamic, especially when you need to get in blaster range.
P.S. The navy Aug is one of the few ships I know of that has an HP bonus instead of a repper or resistance bonus. The Drake is a Lie |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
360
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 21:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:4% isn't used but 10% per level us used on a couple of Amarr ships for armor instead of hull. (legion, damnation, aug navy) Yeah, you are right, totally forgot about the Navy Augoror for example .. been flying it all the time ... just maxed it out forever and ever ago, didn't register somehow, my bad ,) But the strange value of 4% was, which mislead me a bit, since all the 4% values refer to resists.
Cheers Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2498
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 21:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xercodo wrote: Besides, the brutix shouldn't be using plates or bulkheads, they make it slower and bulkier, and that ruins their dynamic, especially when you need to get in blaster range.
Bulkheads don't slow down the hull.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2498
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Just went through all cruisers and battlecruisers and the only remotely related shift which would come even close to your proposal would be the Drake vs the Navy Drake. If you would take the 4% resists and turn it into a 10% HP bonus it would match the Navy Drake and you would have the same objections from me. It does not and neither should the Brutix. All other ships have unshared tanking values. And frigates don't count, they are not Navy versions (but in name), they are faction versions of a related frig concepts, they don't even share the same hull (model) or have similar stats. Navy version do, which is why your other comparison failed.
Maller: 4% resistance to Armor. Directly comparable to Navy Aug and Zealot/Sac. Drake: 4% resistance to Shield. Directly comparable to Navy Drake and Vulture Prophecy: 4% resistance to Armor. Comparable to Damnation with the exception that Prophecy is drone boat, and Damnation is missle boat. (both are non-turret hulls) Ferox: 4% resistance to Armor: Directly comparable to NightHawk Moa: 4% resistance to Armor: Directly comparable to Eagle.
If your objection is that you don't PREFER hull tanks, or that the Brutix shouldn't have a better hull tank, then fine. You can be a boring stick in the mud. :)
But the argument that HP bonuses on a T1 ship (which all resistance bonuses are, and what makes them more powerful than a straight hull HP bonus) interfere with their higher level counterparts is not valid.
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
360
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Maller: 4% resistance to Armor. Directly comparable to Navy Aug and Zealot/Sac. Drake: 4% resistance to Shield. Directly comparable to Navy Drake and Vulture Prophecy: 4% resistance to Armor. Comparable to Damnation with the exception that Prophecy is drone boat, and Damnation is missle boat. (both are non-turret hulls) Ferox: 4% resistance to Armor: Directly comparable to NightHawk Moa: 4% resistance to Armor: Directly comparable to Eagle.
If your objection is that you don't PREFER hull tanks, or that the Brutix shouldn't have a better hull tank, then fine. You can be a boring stick in the mud. :)
But the argument that HP bonuses on a T1 ship (which all resistance bonuses are, and what makes them more powerful than a straight hull HP bonus) interfere with their higher level counterparts is not valid. Now you are getting really weird, cause all of them do not compare to the argument at hand, some do not even compare to an existing navy version and all of them have the resist bonus, which would have been fine as a suggestion.
And, since you are talking about hull in this post all the time and not armor, which I am and the rest of the thread, though it can be an honest mistake, I clearly doubt you are thinking straight atm. It still seems you are defending a 4% resist idea, which you did not make, while accidentally calling it hp.
I can admit, when I am wrong or miss something, which I even have done int this thread. You on the other hand are just pulling unrelated stuff out of thin air and pretend its related. Now you compare resist and buffer and pretend its the same in HP, while you state very correctly above that there is a huge difference regarding local or remote rep.
Sure you are not over tired or extremely biased ? - And I am being polite here - Just saying.
PS: And I never even hinted that I prefer something, which would be an argument from personal preference and a fallacy, though you clearly hinted it. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
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elitatwo
Congregatio
281
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
We already haz four (4) hull tanking ships that even got a shipline on its own - freighters
/thread signature |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2498
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote: Now you are getting really weird, cause all of them do not compare to the argument at hand, some do not even compare to an existing navy version and all of them have the resist bonus, which would have been fine as a suggestion.
After re-reading posts you are right. Reading comprehension error on my part. My apologies.
Updated Proposal: 4%/level Hull resistance for the Brutix.
Otherwise, the precedent for HP bonus has been made already with the Navy Aug. Didn't think it was much of a stretch to put the same bonus (but much less of one at 4%) on the Brutix.
For hull tanks, resist vs. HP bonus isn't all that different since hardly anybody will try to use remote hull reppers in pvp. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
360
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
+
Cheers Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Soul Takers
184
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Posted - 2014.08.30 01:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
+1 to X Gallentius for bringing up the fact that nobody uses the armor rep bonus. The myrm is better for solo wich makes Gallente not have as good of a fleet ship if you use logi in your gang. Putting a 1600 plate on a brutix and no armor repper feels lame every time I have done it.
I will be sticking to the Hurricane, Harbinger , Prophecy and ferox for fleets simply for the fact that they have usable bonuses. Even putting a medium ancillary repper on with a 1600 causes power grid issues on the Brutix and gimps your DPS.
However, hull tanking? meh, I would rather have another bonus to armor hitpoints or better would be medium hybrid range or MWD cap use or something. |
Xercodo
Vector Galactic The Big Dirty
3747
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 05:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Xercodo wrote: Besides, the brutix shouldn't be using plates or bulkheads, they make it slower and bulkier, and that ruins their dynamic, especially when you need to get in blaster range.
Bulkheads don't slow down the hull. And with the introduction of hull tanking rigs, the Brutix does well with reinforced bulkheads. I
OHHH I see...
they reduce cargo capacity and agility.
But then that means it'll take you longer to reach top speed and you won't be able to orbit worth a damn. The Drake is a Lie |
Alphea Abbra
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
786
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Posted - 2014.08.30 08:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
With a character as old as X Gallentius I'm somewhat surprised you suggest that a ship should specialise in hull tanking. Didn't you get the Hull Tanking Certificate, and the novelty item when certificates were removed?
I agree with other posters who stated that hull shouldn't be a real tanking option. If you're in hull, you either say your prayers or look to escape. It should always be preferable to stay in shield or armour to hull. That is not to say I disagree there is a balance issue between active tanking and resist bonuses.
I just don't think hull resists would ever be the way to do something about it. Seriously, your sofa now has +4% resists against EM ... yes, that's your proposed change. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
361
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Posted - 2014.08.30 09:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aeh, what is this change to hull resist now ?? Did you mix up words again ? Google translate mistake ? Still drunk ?
I believe you meant Armor resist. !
If not, then I am seriously in the wrong place and game and probably even time .. or wait, maybe you are Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
151
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Posted - 2014.08.30 11:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
If it was a Navy Augoror style Hull HP bonus... I wouldn't hate this. The new Brutix is still a little meh, if nothing else it'd be interesting. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1881
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 16:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
This would make my brutix better. How sad is that?... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
889
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Posted - 2014.08.30 16:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
it would certainly end up with tanky hull tanked brutix's .. there already isnt much difference between the armour plated and hull tanked version.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please |
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