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Harlen Pike
Pike's Privateers
0
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Posted - 2014.08.31 14:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I read a lot about getting under the guns of big ships, and I understand how tracking works, (Small turrets fast, big turrets slow) but if you mounted small turrets on a battleship, would they track as quickly as a frigate?
In short, is it turret size alone, or hull size (or both) which determines tracking speed. |
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ISD Tipene
ISD STAR
40
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Posted - 2014.08.31 15:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tracking speed is an attribute on the turret you are using, so yes fitting smaller guns onto larger ships would allow you to hit smaller targets easier. When comparing guns you will be able to see it's tracking speed attribute. The higher this is, the quicker a gun can turn and the easier it will track targets.
However damage bonuses on ships are tied to the size of guns used so battleships gain bonuses to large guns. If they don't have large guns fitted they lose out on the bonuses and something that does (like a destroyer) would actually out damage a battleship in this situation. If you find yourself struggling to deal with smaller ships, this is usually where drones or friends in smaller ships come in. |
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
553
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Posted - 2014.08.31 15:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
As your question has already been answered quite well I'll just link this video which does a fantastic job of explaining turret damage and tracking. www.ensignyooch.wordpress.com
New player with questions? Just want to chat? Join my public channel in game:-áHouse Forelli |
Harlen Pike
Pike's Privateers
0
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Posted - 2014.08.31 15:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thanks Guys! |
Lilliana Stelles
1247
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Posted - 2014.08.31 15:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example). Not a forum alt.-á |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4395
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Posted - 2014.09.01 06:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Harlen Pike wrote:So I read a lot about getting under the guns of big ships, and I understand how tracking works, (Small turrets fast, big turrets slow) but if you mounted small turrets on a battleship, would they track as quickly as a frigate?
In short, is it turret size alone, or hull size (or both) which determines tracking speed.
Unless one of the hulls include a tracking bonus to guns (and not a size restricted bonus), then small guns will have the same tracking on a frigate as they have on a battleship.
However, mis-size fitting isn't a typical thing you should do and if you do it, expect to be mocked when you lose the ship. There is a small amount of mis-sized fits that do work, but if you doubt, stick to the correct size. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Marc Durant
131
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Posted - 2014.09.01 07:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Overall chance to hit is affected by 3 variables;
- actual degrees per second the turret has in relation to the target's angular velocity - signature resolution (size) of the turret in relation to the target's sig radius (also size) - range beyond optimal
So big guns have trouble with orbiting targets because their tracking is too slow but also, if applicable, because it's a BIG gun versus a smaller target. So technically you could downsize your guns and expect to hit those smaller orbiting targets better because you adapt both variables.
However;
- if you use a turret based ship your will get a damage bonus that's limited by size, so a BS will get a damage bonus to BS weapons. NOT making use of that bonus by downsizing is just silly in 99.99% of the cases - your ship will have drones to take care of the smaller close range crap, while your guns will be used to hit the bigger main targets
The only situations where downsized turrets make sense is if you're pvping while you KNOW you'll only meet small targets, are specifically fit against them and you want to think outside the box to surprise them (this is NOT something you should normally consider, at all). Drone ships, they generally don't get a turret bonus and even if they do you're just better off to focus on drones/sentries than to waste slots, fitting and effort on extra turrets. There you could add smaller turrets to deal with small orbiting crap while your sentries kill the rest, so you're completely reversing the normal strategy.
TL;DR. JUST DON'T, unless you REALLY know what you're doing (and if you do you still won't... much) Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
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Melkan Krow
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.09.01 12:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Although it must be noted that you'll lock on frigates much more slower on a battleship compared to a (say) cruiser, so that's not ideal. I'm still fairly new to the game, but on PvE I like to keep a small caliber turret mounted to deal with the annoying frigate tackling my Naga (which is mounting large guns). The fact that said Naga has no drone bay to host a contingent of light drones makes the tactic more sensible also. |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
201
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Posted - 2014.09.01 12:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example). Caracals get their bonus to light and heavy missiles, so light missiles are not mis-sized on a caracal |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2603
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Posted - 2014.09.01 12:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Melkan Krow wrote:Although it must be noted that you'll lock on frigates much more slower on a battleship compared to a (say) cruiser, so that's not ideal. I'm still fairly new to the game, but on PvE I like to keep a small caliber turret mounted to deal with the annoying frigate tackling my Naga (which is mounting large guns). The fact that said Naga has no drone bay to host a contingent of light drones makes the tactic more sensible also.
You really shouldn't be missioning in a Naga -- it (along with the other three Attack Battlecruisers) is meant for guerrilla tactics in (pvp) combat. I mean, OK, yeah, you "can" use it ... but try a Ferox or a Drake, and you'll see that they can probably deal with the missions more easily, since you don't have to worry as much about your tank breaking when a cruiser looks at you funny.
In addition to that, hitting (incoming) rats is really easy, because they simply fly at you in a straight line. So target/shoot them first, and you can usually pop them in a single volley. (zero transversal negates the entire left side of the "chance to hit" formula, and provided that they're not out of range, this means you'll pretty much hit them 100% of the time). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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Luwc
Brodozers Inc.
202
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Posted - 2014.09.01 13:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
long story short.
The bigger then gun. the slower the tracking. The smaller the gun. the faster the tracking
Ship sizes do not really apply while certain classes go with a appopriate bonuses
for example
7,5% bonus to tracking of small hybrid weapons 7,5% bonus to tracking of medium hybrid weapons 7,5% bonus to tracking of large hybrid weapons http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3514
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Posted - 2014.09.01 23:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.
Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.
Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Clarice Humphries
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.02 01:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.
Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.
Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.
so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3515
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Posted - 2014.09.02 01:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Clarice Humphries wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.
Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.
Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting. so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?
A baseball bat is a fearsome weapon IRL, but not much use against a fly. Likewise a battleship struggles to hit anything small.
As a broad rule of thumb, cruisers beat frigates, battleships beat cruisers, and frigates beat battleships. This is not always true, but is a good starting point.
Battleships aren't 'better' than smaller ships, they are good at different things. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4400
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Posted - 2014.09.02 06:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Clarice Humphries wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.
Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.
Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting. so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?
Where does Sabriz say that frigates mostly win from battleships.
Sabriz mentions what you can do and that frigates CAN be threat to battleships.
It's weird that new players think that bigger is always better...
Ships are tools, pick the correct tool for the correct job. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Toshiro Hasegawa
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
67
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Posted - 2014.09.02 15:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
the real life comparison is that the biggest ships / or planes .. fly in group with small specialists whose job it is to screen and to protect the big ships / planes from small stuff .. while the big ship / plane .. does what it is meant to do which is deploy huge firepower on a single enemy high value target. Mixed fleets are usually a good idea - when the big ships are involved .. History is the study of change. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
287
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
ISD Tipene wrote:Tracking speed is an attribute on the turret you are using, so yes fitting smaller guns onto larger ships would allow you to hit smaller targets easier. When comparing guns you will be able to see it's tracking speed attribute. The higher this is, the quicker a gun can turn and the easier it will track targets.
However damage bonuses on ships are tied to the size of guns used so battleships gain bonuses to large guns. If they don't have large guns fitted they lose out on the bonuses and something that does (like a destroyer) would actually out damage a battleship in this situation. If you find yourself struggling to deal with smaller ships, this is usually where drones or friends in smaller ships come in.
in addition to drones, there are things you can do/fit to improve your tracking. There are mods that directly impact tracking, and others that have indirect effects such webs/scrams which can slow a targeted ship down decreasing angular velocity and target painters that increase the signature of the other ship making it easier to hit. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
287
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Clarice Humphries wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.
Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.
Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting. so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?
The confusion comes about from the fact that BS in game are not fit like BS IRL. CCP made a conscious decision to gimp BS so that they would not be an automatic I win button. Frigs in game can solo a BS under the right circumstances. But it is not necessarily easy or a guarantee. I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4520
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote: The confusion comes about from the fact that BS in game are not fit like BS IRL. CCP made a conscious decision to gimp BS so that they would not be an automatic I win button. Frigs in game can solo a BS under the right circumstances. But it is not necessarily easy or a guarantee.
confirming, its a fun challange. =][= |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4097
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Posted - 2014.09.02 19:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Clarice Humphries wrote:so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something? A battleship has problems hitting a frigate that is travelling with a traversal velocity that exceeds the tracking of the battleship's turrets.
Some possible solutions: * Send drones after the frigate. * Web the frigate to slow it down. * Energy neutralize the frigate (turns-off its propulsion module). * Use a Warp Scrambler on the frigate to shut-off its MWD. * Manually navigate the larger ship so the frigate has a lower traversal velocity. * Fit mid-slot and / or low-slot tracking modules. * Use a smartbomb, to force the frigate to orbit further away. * Be assisted by remote tracking computers from other friendly fleet ships. * Use a target painter to make the frigate effectively a larger target. [Applies more to missiles.]
Example: My Tornado with 1400mm artillery and no drones, cannot generally hit a moving frigate closer than ~20 km, however I can easily one-volley them at about 30 km. So I try to kite away from the frigate, and really like it when they follow directly behind, as 0 traversal velocity even for a moment = dead frigate.
EDIT: I hate battling a Dominx (and drone boats in general), as they do have drones, and often also webs, neuts, and even smartbombs. |
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Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
288
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Posted - 2014.09.02 20:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Clarice Humphries wrote:so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something? A battleship has problems hitting a frigate that is travelling with a traversal velocity that exceeds the tracking of the battleship's turrets. Some possible solutions: * Send drones after the frigate. * Web the frigate to slow it down. * Energy neutralize the frigate (turns-off its propulsion module). * Use a Warp Scrambler on the frigate to shut-off its MWD. * Manually navigate the larger ship so the frigate has a lower traversal velocity. * Fit mid-slot and / or low-slot tracking modules. * Use a smartbomb, to force the frigate to orbit further away. * Be assisted by remote tracking computers from other friendly fleet ships. * Use a target painter to make the frigate effectively a larger target. [Applies more to missiles.] Example: My Tornado with 1400mm artillery and no drones, cannot generally hit a moving frigate closer than ~20 km, however I can easily one-volley them at about 30 km. So I try to kite away from the frigate, and really like it when they follow directly behind, as 0 traversal velocity even for a moment = dead frigate. EDIT: I hate battling a Dominx (and drone boats in general), as they do have drones, and often also webs, neuts, and even smartbombs.
Should just add some points from the frigs perspective:
Generally, you want to keep your traversal up so that means approaching in a spiral. If you are going against a ratting ship, you can get as close as you can while still being able to hit the bs. (Believe it or not, but if you orbit too close and are moving too fast, you may create tracking problems for your own guns). If you believe that the bs has webs you want to try and kite them outside of overheated web range - approximately 11-12k. If you believe that the ship has heavy neuts - well then you need to try and kite outside of neut range 24k (?). Of course many bs now carry MJD which means that you cant hold the bs unless you are able to scram them. As I recall, normal scram range is approx 9k. So if you are in a non-boosted t1 frig it is certainly no guarantee that you will take down a solo bs.
I don't play, I just fourm warrior. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3525
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Posted - 2014.09.02 22:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Clarice Humphries wrote:so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something? A battleship has problems hitting a frigate that is travelling with a traversal velocity that exceeds the tracking of the battleship's turrets. Some possible solutions: * Send drones after the frigate. * Web the frigate to slow it down. * Energy neutralize the frigate (turns-off its propulsion module). * Use a Warp Scrambler on the frigate to shut-off its MWD. * Manually navigate the larger ship so the frigate has a lower traversal velocity. * Fit mid-slot and / or low-slot tracking modules. * Use a smartbomb, to force the frigate to orbit further away. * Be assisted by remote tracking computers from other friendly fleet ships. * Use a target painter to make the frigate effectively a larger target. [Applies more to missiles.] Example: My Tornado with 1400mm artillery and no drones, cannot generally hit a moving frigate closer than ~20 km, however I can easily one-volley them at about 30 km. So I try to kite away from the frigate, and really like it when they follow directly behind, as 0 traversal velocity even for a moment = dead frigate. EDIT: I hate battling a Dominx (and drone boats in general), as they do have drones, and often also webs, neuts, and even smartbombs. Should just add some points from the frigs perspective: Generally, you want to keep your traversal up so that means approaching in a spiral. If you are going against a ratting ship, you can get as close as you can while still being able to hit the bs. (Believe it or not, but if you orbit too close and are moving too fast, you may create tracking problems for your own guns). If you believe that the bs has webs you want to try and kite them outside of overheated web range - approximately 11-12k. If you believe that the ship has heavy neuts - well then you need to try and kite outside of neut range 24k (?). Of course many bs now carry MJD which means that you cant hold the bs unless you are able to scram them. As I recall, normal scram range is approx 9k. So if you are in a non-boosted t1 frig it is certainly no guarantee that you will take down a solo bs.
Yeah if the BS has neuts you are quite possibly going to be unable to kill them. You can almost certainly survive the encounter, so frig vs neut BS is usually a stalemate.
If the BS does not have neuts, and does not have bonused light drones, you are almost never going to be at risk of being killed, and you can orbit the BS and warp scramble it indefinitely and you may be able to kill it depending upon its tank. Just being able to point a BS indefinitely is a 'win' even if you can't kill it (as you totally control the fight), and there are times you can kill them too.
That's why I say 'frigates usually beat battleships'.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Keisha Tachyon
Irrational Tendencies SCUM.
3
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Posted - 2014.09.03 09:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
On Point why frigates are sort of "dangerous" to a lone battleship has not been mentioned here.
Battleships (except drone ships) generally lack the means to kill a properly flown frigate quickly. That means if a frigate tackles your battleship (makes it stay in place by warpscrambler/webifier) and even if it can-¦t actually kill you. You can be pretty sure that somewhere in the corp/fleet or whatever Chats the frigate Pilot is calling for more firepower. And if you can-¦t shake the frigate of quickly you-¦ll find a fleet arriving shortly that has plenty foirepower to kill you.
Obviously not every Player running around in a frig has a fleet behind them, but a lone frigate attacking a battleship usually does. |
Lilliana Stelles
1249
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example). Caracals get their bonus to light and heavy missiles, so light missiles are not mis-sized on a caracal
It is according to ISIS, which lists the caracal as a medium-module ship. I'm not talking about rapid launchers. I'm talking about the frigate size launchers. There are some fits that use them. Not a forum alt.-á |
Gregor Parud
591
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Ka'Narlist wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example). Caracals get their bonus to light and heavy missiles, so light missiles are not mis-sized on a caracal It is according to ISIS, which lists the caracal as a medium-module ship. I'm not talking about rapid launchers. I'm talking about the frigate size launchers. There are some fits that use them.
They did, till we got the rapids. |
Lilliana Stelles
1249
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Posted - 2014.09.05 05:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Ka'Narlist wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example). Caracals get their bonus to light and heavy missiles, so light missiles are not mis-sized on a caracal It is according to ISIS, which lists the caracal as a medium-module ship. I'm not talking about rapid launchers. I'm talking about the frigate size launchers. There are some fits that use them. They did, till we got the rapids.
You still see them on blitz fits that don't want to deal with the reload times. Not a forum alt.-á |
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