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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work.
Mining in RELIC sites? Really?
The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Querns wrote:Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work. Mining in RELIC sites? Really? The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market.
You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
You want to adapt the game to your needs because you are lazy (what you call "sup-optimal"). You want to change the gameplay of many people, a gameplay i suspect you are not even remotely involved in (you are just interested in the end-product), to suit your needs. Your "very small concession" kills the gameplay for many people in highsec and something that could end up being a mini-profession. The truth of the matter is, your hassle is another persons opportunity. Too bad for you. Adapt and HTFU. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode Baddest poster ever |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:I think it's a better idea to solve this by education instead of changing stuff around. The need for a POS to compress Ore is a nice way to introduce players to use of posses for industrial needs instead using stations for everything. On the other hand it might be nice to use some underused PI products as ingredient or 'flux material' for station compression.
It appears this is not really a high sec miners not compressing problem though seeing your trit and pyerite numbers. It looks more like nobody mining Lowsec ores, which are the major supplier of Isogen/Nocx and in a lesser amount Mex.Which is weird, as they have been the best isk/hour ores in the game for a while and with the new compression ratios you get mad isk/m3 with compressed low sec ores.
As for the High End market collapse, I think CCP should've changed Ore anomalies the same way as they did Pirate anomalies. Remove most high end ores in -0.1 and -0.2 and have more, the lower the security rating gets.
Makes perfect sense tbh. With lowsec being the most dangerous region for miners, the prices have to go up a lot more i suspect before people bother to go there with a prospect. But wouldn't it be nice if they would actually eventually do that? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
728
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion
you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts
The facts are these: Nobody has an issue with the compression but the few capital producers in 0.0 who want to acquire minerals at pre-crius prices and volumes.
Not a big issue at all. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts The facts are these: Nobody has an issue with the compression but the few capital producers in 0.0 who want to acquire minerals at pre-crius prices and volumes. Not a big issue at all. Price isn't an issue for us. We'll gladly pay a premium for ore, especially considering we get 20% more minerals out of it compared to highsec. The issue is SUPPLY. There isn't enough supply. This is due to uninformed highsec miners continuing with their eleven years' habit of reprocessing their ore before moving it to market.
Supply and price are NOT the same thing. They're related, but not directly.
Education does not help end-users. My time spent in focus groups at my real life job has taught me that no amount of education can ever truly help users. The onus is on the developers to aid the user at all costs. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).
This is obviously untrue, and we've been seeing that since Crius was released. Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime. Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one. edit: I suspect the PL posters seeking to keep ore compression kneecapped are doing so because with their hordes of renters in the drone regions, they've got ample local ore supplies: http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png. With ore compression currently basically unworkable right now, that means they have their competition idle and can raise prices. I wholeheartedly approve from a screw everyone get yours perspective, but it's not good game design.
As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.
i don't know why someone who doesn't know what an ore anomoly is feels qualified to comment on this issue, but be assured this is a remarkably dumb response There is plenty of tritanium and pyerite in 0.0. Including anomalies.
You are wrong there, the compositions were changed several patches ago and are horrible, they added pyerite, nocs and mex in Crius but it is almost a non significant digit amount, I mean paltry |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change"
23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable
so, yeah, I'm good |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
777
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" 23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable so, yeah, I'm good You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:02:00 -
[43] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" 23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable so, yeah, I'm good You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V
No worries m8, CCP did it for you |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V No worries m8, CCP did it for you Thus, the point of the thread -- to provide an alternative to such ridiculousness. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V No worries m8, CCP did it for you Thus, the point of the thread -- to provide an alternative to such ridiculousness.
I guess I haven't addressed your OP much, mainly pointing out inaccuracies of some of the mining theory-crafters in this thread.
That being said to your OP:
Education is the key. I flew around and found corps of miners, talked to them, educated them, now I have brokered deals with them to buy every piece of ore they mine. I have now 8 corps on my roster and I buy everything, I haul it for them.
Now before you get up in arms about freighters, red frog does the same thing - I am just one stop shopping.
This is not rocket science but sitting in Jita and bitching and moaning about the compressed ore not coming to you is stupid
425mm railguns never came to you either, but in the end you figured out a way to get them
This is NO DIFFERENT
You need to figure out how to get ore or compressed ore, the tools are there for you to use |
mup Deninard
mupcorp
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
728
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
Querns wrote:mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas. Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable. Yeah, this is a solid compromise. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Thats most of the points I was making in the previous thread. Putting up a POS as a small corp just ain't worth the hassle, and it never will be.
On the other hand, letting an Orca compress might not be such a bad idea.
It wouldn't be immediately available to everyone joining the game, and the skill training means a lot of new players wouldn't even bother training for it anyway. But the compressed ore available would still increase.
It would increase simply because it would be hassle free for established miners, unlike now. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
For those worried that allowing the orca to compress would (further) step on the rorqual's toes, fear not -- CCP has stated that the rorqual is next in line for rebalancing. Given the previous track record, I'm putting pretty good odds on a significant curve ball for the rorqual that will set it apart. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT
You, sir, are wrong.
Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec.
Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it.
As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec?
In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials?
The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths.
You took me out of context
the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression
BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec
If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job
If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way
Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor"
In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever
Don't start changing the argument midstream |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it.
I will just leave this here for the above poster.
In regards to the Orca compression- yes, that would help, but again does not solve the core issue. That would be a good interim fix while CCP figures out how to address null mining.
|
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. I will just leave this here for the above poster. In regards to the Orca compression- yes, that would help, but again does not solve the core issue. That would be a good interim fix while CCP figures out how to address null mining.
So, educate the miners to not refine, it isn't difficult and I have had GREAT success at doing it, I suggest you try the same. It would require you to talk to pubbies, which is beneath you, I understand.
or you can continue to ***** and moan here
Your call |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
778
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Oddly enough, education is the idea of my second point -- putting UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression (of any form) does a darn sight better at educating than speaking to individual miners. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:19:00 -
[56] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. You took me out of context the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor" In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever Don't start changing the argument midstream
There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression.
1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.
Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that **** |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
113
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:This is NO DIFFERENT You, sir, are wrong. Sourcing low end minerals has always been a problem for nullsec. Null belts simply do not contain meaningful amounts of low end minerals, as demonstrated by the recent changes to high end ores to include more low end minerals. Despite these changes, there are still not enough low end minerals in null to meet the demands of nullsec. Compression via 425's was not a solution to the problem; it was merely addressing the symptoms. The difference between 425 compression and ore compression is that we used to utilize items in their most raw format - minerals - to turn into a compressed form to fill the demand of null. With compression as it exists today, as soon as an item is converted into minerals, there is no way to compress it. As Querns mentioned above, miners have been mining and refining their ores for 11 years without change. Now that this change has hit, miners are still mining and refining their ore. High sec miners have spent huge amounts of time to train refining/reprocessing skills for maximum yield, and now you simply expect them to sell their ores raw? What is that saying for the actual skillpoints invested in refining and reprocessing skills in high sec? In addition- the changes in Crius were intended to spread production away from a centralized hub. Nullsec stations have bonuses to production and to refining in an effort to encourage localized markets in null. How does it make sense then to require nullsec to still reach out to Jita for the most basic and common of t1 materials? The problem is beyond compression. It's the fact that we're forced to go to high sec to source the most common building blocks in the game- even with attempting to supply ourselves via local mining. There is no reason that hundreds of miners in Deklein should strip entire systems of ore and still not have enough iso/mex to build one supercarrier, much less a titan. Our mineral demands for sub caps are equal or greater than the mineral demand for supers, as we (everyone) loses significantly more minerals via sub caps than we do from capital deaths. You took me out of context the no different was both for 425's vs ore compression BOTH are sourcing minerals from high sec If people have been doing something for 11 years and now you need them to do something different, bitching on forums to get CCP to change it back isn't the answer. Education is key my friend - that also is NOT CCP's job If you want to get to a different discussion on how viable mining is in nullsec ---> forum is that way Last year at EvE Vegas when anomoly changes were coming and Mexallon was getting the big nerf bat, we complained and everyone toed the same line "We will monitor" In lieu of them changing, you must overcome and adapt, obviously, you have been unable, I have been able with little or no fuss whatsoever Don't start changing the argument midstream There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression. 1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that ****
So, basically you are mad cause it isn't "EZ MODE" anymore?
I am not going to spill the beans on my operation, but suffice it to say
If you are doing it this way, no wonder you are pissed
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
Firvain wrote:
There is a big diffrence between 425 compression and ore compression.
1 account could supply you with around 4 billion trit a week with only 1 hour play time max. You would simply buy in jita, ship it wiht red frog/push x and then use 3 charecters to build railguns. So basicly anyone could do it.
Now for compression you need 10 freighters to reduce the tiem it takes to haul ores, you cant outsource that part coz couriers dont go to POS. And even with 10 freighters you spend alot more then 1 hour hauling all that ****
Oh dear, CCP decided that 425 compression was OP and changed it.... What is it you Nullbears like to say... Adapt or Die! Seriously. You cry worse than any highsec player I've ever seen, Dinsdale included.
As for having to source items from high sec, personally Null should have no low ends at all. No area of space should be independent of the others economy, High sec depends on Null for High Ends, Null should depend on High Sec for Low Ends, or the economies go out of balance if Null can be totally independent.
And on small mining corps not affording a POS. Become a Large mining corp instead. Finally, a reason in High Sec to actually play with other people. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2199
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Querns wrote:Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work. Mining in RELIC sites? Really? The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market.
How is it sub optimal when you have a shortage?
Put some mining fleets out there and stop expecting all the highsec noobies to take all the risks in mining for you.
As far as compression, I check every week or so to see if compressing will pay me more then refining. Right now refining pays better. If you want more compressed ore out of highec, raise the price on your buys. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
122
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
I find this thread very interesting. It is quite similar to many of the threads in the WH forum.
CCP has changed the mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the way many in null sec play the game. Instead of asking CCP to change the game to meet null sec needs and effecting everyone else I respectfully suggest null try to adapt to the changes.
Let us see, how do I now get all the minerals I need to build my fleet of capital ships?
I could slow down production. I could hire miners to mine the low ends exclusively in null sec (better pay them appropriately). Yes, that means anomalies, combat sites, belts (shudder) of many systems. I could hold mining ops in low sec. I could take control of some low sec systems for the sole purpose of mining them. I could hire hi sec miner corps to produce what I need. I could hire hi sec transport outfits to haul and compress. I could, wait for it, mine in WH space while linked to my null sec systems. I could hire WH corps to mine and transport for me.
I could do any combination of the above WITHOUT affecting the rest of the game by insisting on a mechanics change.
Compression mechanics as is is just fine. Time to expand your horizons and possibilities. Of all the podcasts I listen to Hyrdostatic is the best! http://hydrostaticpodcast.blogspot.ca/ Nolen Cadmar spreadsheets: Excellent value, great customer service. Don't wait and check them out. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=295315 |
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