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GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:10:00 -
[211] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face.
We thought all this through and posted as much when the change was announced, but reserved judgment to see how the market adapted and if highsec was a little brighter than we gave it credit for. Our initial pessimism about the intelligence of the highsec miner has been proven correct, and the market demonstrates that. The many worthless highsec miners we have squashed over the years can bleat all they want, but the facts are incontestable. Ore compression isn't working as intended and the market shows that. As a result, the loudest screams against our calm, reasoned pointing out of the facts are basically monkeys throwing poop everywhere in an effort to distract from those facts. That you neither saw nor understood those posts is not a problem for us. What the market is doing can be verified by anyone. Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. But the compressed ore market is badly broken, and the behavior it incentivizes to fix it is unfun solo activity that creates no content for anyone.
I like this part of the narrative where compressed veldspar doesn't exist, yet there are ten million units on the market for sale right now in Jita.
Or is this whole thing supposed to be a ten page whine about pricing? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:11:00 -
[212] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:13:00 -
[213] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. I like this part of the narrative where compressed veldspar doesn't exist, yet there are ten million units on the market for sale right now in Jita.
Mr Omniblivion wrote: Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:18:00 -
[214] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting
I didn't picture it as a meeting honestly, I thought it was more like a pajama party pillow fight type of thing. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1208
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:35:00 -
[215] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:The reason the Retriever and Mackinaw are so popular is because they have built-in haulers, so in a small group you aren't spending a character on logistics overhead. Everyone can mine. That popularity points to a lack of interest among miners for logistics ships generally. Um, no. The Retriever and Mackinaw are popular because you don't have to jetcan mine and risk being can-flipped. It's not because miners think industrial ships are icky.
Whoosh!
The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.
The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:46:00 -
[216] - Quote
Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with?
Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:50:00 -
[217] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:04:00 -
[218] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying.
Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. |
HarlyQ
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2014.09.04 19:09:00 -
[219] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
ok dinsdale, i will be sure to remember that when feeding ccp their orders at our next nullsec cabal meeting I didn't picture it as a meeting honestly, I thought it was more like a pajama party pillow fight type of thing.
I need more popcorn for your post's and butter. also we do not use hulks EFFORT we use mackinaws easier to isbox mine with. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:10:00 -
[220] - Quote
Querns wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run?
Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:12:00 -
[221] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%. This is a pretty hilarious concept. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:14:00 -
[222] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
601
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 19:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run? Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%.
The scraps of our table are your reward. The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
Wopasi
Wicoti
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:03:00 -
[224] - Quote
If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
213
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:19:00 -
[225] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Whoosh!
The point is below a fleet of a certain size--and high sec has many of these--a dedicated industrial pilot doesn't make sense. "Icky" has nothing to do with it.
The inability to can-flip is also nice, of course, except that it's been replaced by straight ganks. You should try reading your own posts:
Dersen Lowery wrote:Unfortunately (fortunately?), you can't put a POS in an ore bay, which means that the pop-up POS posited in this thread is going to be used exclusively by larger and more organized corps. The point has nothing to do with a dedicated industrial pilot, because you don't need a dedicated industrial pilot to throw up a POS. Anyone with any faction's indy ship trained to 1 can do it, and they can switch out to a miner after its up.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:41:00 -
[226] - Quote
Wopasi wrote:If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:47:00 -
[227] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us.
How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:49:00 -
[228] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. Your understanding of supply is laughably naive. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:51:00 -
[229] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.
Ah, yes -- the mark of one who is completely outside of their ability to participate in a debate -- deriding the individuals so debating as "crying." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:58:00 -
[230] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Wopasi wrote:If the given supply of a product cannot meet the current demand, then the general response is the price increases. As the price increases this gives other suppliers the incentive to increase the volume of the product in demand. Eventually the supply of product and the accepted value of that product will somewhat stabilize.
It may not be happening fast enough, but it will eventually. Now this is Eve so the opportunities to screw over each other, set up a cartel, manipulate the price, or just be a **** are endless.
Offer more isk for what you want and the market will respond.
You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.
I have no sympathy for someone who is too lazy to mine veldspar and has to pay 20 ISK a unit for it. The price difference sounds like a convenience fee. I like the story about how scarce veldspar is in null sec myself, yet if you fly around out there, there is system after system of completely empty sov space with literally THOUSANDS of belts that are never touched.
This whole thing is an amusing fairy tale for sure. |
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GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:07:00 -
[231] - Quote
Querns wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. Your understanding of supply is laughably naive.
Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:08:00 -
[232] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there.
As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit.
Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market.
The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices.
There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it. |
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:11:00 -
[233] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle
Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array.
But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now.
I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers.
Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands.
Not really.
Imagine the total output of all mining in eve in one bag. A percentage of this ore is compressed and sold, either on the market or privately. A second percentage is sold raw, both on the market and privately. The third -- and I really need you to pay attention because this is the important part -- does not hit the market at all; it gets refined in place and ends up as useless minerals.
That third part is the part I want to convert to either of the first two parts. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:18:00 -
[235] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be. Enjoy your tedium.
If it's any consolation, even if you were selling compressed ore, there'd be no way for you to know if you were selling it to us or not. Neutral alts are magical. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
133
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:18:00 -
[236] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it.
Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2207
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be.
Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
162
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. As of this post, there are just over 200k units of compressed Kernite on sell orders across all the major markets (priced at roughly 36k per unit). There are already over 800k units on buy orders at roughly 30k per unit. Shoogie wrote: 100 Kernite = 26048.00 isk. Refined = 97.016 trit, 193.308 mex, 97.016 iso = 23693.19 isk (9.0% loss) Compressed = 29578.35 isk (13.6% profit)
30k buys are already at a 13.6% profit over ore price (26.6% more profitable than mineral prices). These profit margins are huge- the "pay more" mentality is already in effect here- these are some of the best margins in the game for mining, yet the ore is still not getting to market. The sells that are up there are at roughly 36k per unit. That's 38.2% more than the ore price and 51.9% more than the price of the minerals in the ore. These aren't being bought out because it is cheaper to ship individual minerals rather than buy the ore at those prices. There is clearly an issue here, and "you need to pay more" is not it.
Those aren't even close to the best margins, kernite is a big waste of time. Put up some buy orders at a 50% margin and let's see if they get filled. I can buy millions of units of Kernite at 300 a unit right now, put up an order at 450 a unit and stop being so stingy with your money. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 -
[239] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
781
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:22:00 -
[240] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same. Heh -- if highsec miners read the forums, they'd know to compress in the first place. The whole point of my ideas is to reach people who don't read the forums. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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