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Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Instead of directly nerfing the ships - spread out regions way beyond the jump distance of any cap ship.
Want to invade a region? You cannot just spam it with caps. You need to establish a presence with a smaller force and entrench yourself to bring the big guns over, giving regions and sov. mechanics the some badly strategies of Attrition and Defender's Advantage. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6026
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 14:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Make more cyno alts. Log them off in space until needed. Nothing changes. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
41
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Say they completely change the map around to put massive rifts N+1 lightyears wide between regions...
And i invade say wicked creek (last place i did any major nullseccing god the fall of Sc0rched Earth was fun) from a neighbouring region with a fleet of "smaller stuff", what do i do then? ship in capital ships in pieces? make an EVEN LARGER number of archons? what?
What i am saying is that i dont understand the "entrench yourself to bring the big guns over"...
Okay that said, it wouldn't change much even if they did, the big blocks can still afford to just suicide their carrier and dread fleets if they want to, now they'll just need one in every region... And (if we can trust the mittani on his own website) one of the main reasons nullsec is so static is that neither side NEEDS any more terrain they both have about as much space as they can reasonably expect to hold/iuse/etc.
Granted i live in a wormhole so i dont claim to be an expert but i fail to see how building a gigantic stockpile of carriers in deklein is very different from building a few smaller stockpiles in deklein and wicked creek, and outer ring and other regions... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
889
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 15:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 17:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy
If the jump range of ships stays the same but the universe gets expanded by 20%, you will need a lot more cynos and some areas of space are then only reachable through choke points. The south in particular would have some serious problems after such a change, as Stain is already only accessible via 2 suitable Low sec system. The west is a lot easier to reach in that regard, not to mention the absolutely well connected North. The East also has some issues here and there. In general, an expanded universe would mean that you need to have blues or be part of a bigger entity to reach deeper into 00 sec if you want to be there and move things around. If you want to live there and be self-sufficient there, it's not such a big problem as you can use WH to bring in the few bits and pieces which you can't get in your own space. True space life. |
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 18:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy
Not understanding how a cyno alt would help a ship that cannot get to it. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
471
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hmmm. interesting. I actually like this concept better than some of the short-sighted nerfs we have been seeing lately (as long as it is thought out and executed well).
With this, there would have to be even more options to establish robust economies in sov space as it would make it harder to jump in supplies, but that is not a bad thing and it would be interesting from a strategic standpoint with the sov mechanics.
No longer could you just blitz 100 cap ships across regions without warning. You would either have to kick the door down in a beach-head assault to establishing a CSA/warmachine under fire, or think longer term and build one without detection right in thier back yard.
Both scenarios allow for more classic elements that should be involved in a sov mechanic, especially a defenders advantage and as OP said, attrition. This could actually solve a lot of small block stagnation issues. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2874
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spaceman Jack wrote:Harvey James wrote:would prob need cynos removed from the game too work... cyno alts make it too easy Not understanding how a cyno alt would help a ship that cannot get to it I am not saying that space should get bigger as a whole. I am saying that "Region A" should be out of cyno jump range of "Region B." Make each region it's own island.
Then it becomes completely impossible to take out a group that has the time to build itself even a middling capital fleet.
How are you going to take out a hundred spider tanking archons when you cannot use anything bigger than a battleship?
How are you going to avoid mass burnout if you try to invade, say, Providence in subcaps?
How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4111
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
There are some issues with spreading regions out too much. I always liked the idea that it was easier to fly towards empire than to circumnavigate the outer nullsec regions. This is true in some cases, and I think it creates some useful tactical situations in the "layout" of the universe. However, this change won't solve the major issues with Sov that currently exist.
We need to change the Sov system as a priority. Changing the ly distances between systems would not be a healthy change unless/until we put it in context of a revamped sov system.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions?
I highlighted it for you.
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2874
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions? I highlighted it for you.
Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist? |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions? I highlighted it for you. Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist?
Yes?
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2875
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 21:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions? I highlighted it for you. Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist? Yes?
While you may enjoy the idea of flying nothing but T1 ships with awful fits, some of us would really rather not. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How are people going to be expected to actually live in outlying regions? I highlighted it for you. Do you particularly want to live in a region where the highlight of your day is a meta 4 drop, and T2 gear practically doesn't exist? Yes? While you may enjoy the idea of flying nothing but T1 ships with awful fits, some of us would really rather not.
Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2875
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 00:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.
Which would be obtained in any significant number from...? |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 06:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:
Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.
Which would be obtained in any significant number from...?
Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs.
Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.
Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things.
I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here. |
Spaceman Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:
Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.
Which would be obtained in any significant number from...? Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs. Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands. Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things. I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here.
this guy gets it - Yes, this would need some other changes as I stated previously, mostly to continue the industrial changes we are seeing now to make Null more self-sustainable and some other sov mechanics. this is not a magic bullet, but a different way of looking at the sov mechanic issue as a whole. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2875
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:
Who says I would do that? I would still fly my T2 ships and T3.
Which would be obtained in any significant number from...? Your own moon minerals in the region or surrounding areas from friends + imports of all those materials that you cannot obtain in your from trade hubs either via WHs or coordinated JF runs. Small as as well as big alliances who want to live in Cache, for instance, would have to grow and diversify a little bit. They would have to attract miners who mine the normal minerals for the alliance's production needs, while the alliance's PVP provide protection from roaming gangs or other intruders for these PVP attractions. A change in mindset and attitude towards the game would have to take place, in a way that "living" in your Sov is not just farming rats in anomalies and importing all the things from Jita; rather it would mean that you use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands. Naturally, there also would have to be some changes to the Sovereignty system, stations in Sov 00, POS in general, ratting aka making money and a couple more things. I might be talking about a completely different, potentially better game here.
What you are describing there is a complete rework of the entire game from the ground up. A little bit more than a massive increase in the distances between regions.
You also fail to understand that you don't get all the moon materials in every region. Some regions would actually have T2 equipment, others simply would not. At all. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
If a complete rewrite of the game is necessary to make it interesting again and induce change ... I can live with that.
I mentioned WH usage and JF to get your needed materials and equipment, which are not producible in your location, to your homes. If that doesn't pan out as expected in test phases (prohibitively expensive or just too cumbersome to realize, for instance.) I would also be inclined to give regions in this "new game" a more equal spread of moon minerals or materials or methodes (ring mining, anyone?) that are then required for T2 production. Correct me if I am wrong, but moon minerals haven't really been a great conflict driver for years; the last conflict over moon minerals was the time when CFC took over the north for their Technetium Cartel. In a universe with a wider spread and thus harder to maintain big empire, it would be even less likely that moons in Deklein drive conflict with people in Cache. |
Andy Koraka
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:use all aspects of your space constantly just players do in High sec (they mine, PVP, PVE, PI, manufacture, reprocess, etc. in their systems) and that you need to attract people to be able to satisfy your material demands.
Already done: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Brothers_of_Tangra http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Greater_Western_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
Whether they pay in ISK, Fuel, Minerals, or Archon hulls is insignificant. If you region lock Capitals it becomes trivially easy for N3, PL, and the CFC to leverage that massive income to permanently entrench hundreds of Capitals into their border regions.
Worst case scenario we have 3 or 4 weeks notice to seed the most vulnerable regions with enough capitals no invading subcapital force could out them, in the following months the massive collective output from the renters would quickly shore up gaps in the defense.
If you want to promote stagnation and discourage conflict that's the way to do it. |
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 22:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:If you want to promote stagnation and discourage conflict that's the way to to it.
We have that already, hence I don't need to promote anything. And as far as I understand it, your block and CFC are very happy with the stagnation. I wonder who's the one to blame for this situation.
Anyways, as stated in my comments and as pointed out by others, expanding the universe alone is not enough. It requires a huge number of changes and method/mechanic/functionality changes in addition. With the current sov system, for instance, you cannot expect to see any change at all, as things like you described would be very well possible to happen.
More importantly however, a change in the attitude towards the hobby that EVE is, has to take place. If the players simply want to keep the current status, any suggestion to change this in whatever way is futile and a waste of time writing such threads and comments. I for myself want change, a lot of change, so much changes that it indeed turns the game into a new game in the end. A game that gets rid of this Shooter-esque style that EVE is turning into right now, and more towards a better space sim, where the shooter element is just one tiny aspect of the game that cannot and should not outshine or thwart the other aspects of the game. Everyone in an alliance has to contribute to the alliance, not just wait for Jabber pings to log in for quick content.
And with regards to your Renter Empires: I rather mean smaller scales, like what Spears of Destiny do or Unthinkables, but I guess it will always condense back into this big monotonous mess after some time. |
Sigras
Conglomo
848
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Posted - 2014.09.04 07:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:If a complete rewrite of the game is necessary to make it interesting again and induce change ... I can live with that. I mentioned WH usage and JF to get your needed materials and equipment, which are not producible in your location, to your homes. If that doesn't pan out as expected in test phases (prohibitively expensive or just too cumbersome to realize, for instance.) I would also be inclined to give regions in this "new game" a more equal spread of moon minerals or materials or methodes (ring mining, anyone?) that are then required for T2 production. Correct me if I am wrong, but moon minerals haven't really been a great conflict driver for years; the last conflict over moon minerals was the time when CFC took over the north for their Technetium Cartel. In a universe with a wider spread and thus harder to maintain big empire, it would be even less likely that moons in Deklein drive conflict with people in Cache. Im not sure how JFs are going to get your needed materials if you cant cyno into your region...
That being said, i think this could work if you were to make a POS module beacon which you could cyno to at 2x range, so you could bring your cap fleet in but you would have to make a "beach head" with a sub cap fleet first... That said, I dont think this is a great solution as it makes it extremely difficult to uproot an entrenched defender. |
Adrie Atticus
the shadow plague The Bastion
268
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:If a complete rewrite of the game is necessary to make it interesting again and induce change ... I can live with that. I mentioned WH usage and JF to get your needed materials and equipment, which are not producible in your location, to your homes. If that doesn't pan out as expected in test phases (prohibitively expensive or just too cumbersome to realize, for instance.) I would also be inclined to give regions in this "new game" a more equal spread of moon minerals or materials or methodes (ring mining, anyone?) that are then required for T2 production. Correct me if I am wrong, but moon minerals haven't really been a great conflict driver for years; the last conflict over moon minerals was the time when CFC took over the north for their Technetium Cartel. In a universe with a wider spread and thus harder to maintain big empire, it would be even less likely that moons in Deklein drive conflict with people in Cache. Im not sure how JFs are going to get your needed materials if you cant cyno into your region... That being said, i think this could work if you were to make a POS module beacon which you could cyno to at 2x range, so you could bring your cap fleet in but you would have to make a "beach head" with a sub cap fleet first... That said, I dont think this is a great solution as it makes it extremely difficult to uproot an entrenched defender.
Normal freighters through the gate is implied in the post. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
No, normal freighters are not implied. And I have not said that the universe should be completely insular so that no cap can jump to another region. That would not be logical and just lead to more frustration. JF still can jump to your region, it just involves a lot more effort and travel time/cynos to do it. This way, you still have the necessary logistics capacities to import things that you can't produce on your own, but it discourages the use of these tools to import every tiny little bit of equipment into your home.
Freighters absolutely don't work in EVE in Low sec and 00 sec. That's never going to change and thus they should never be considered as a tool of transportation into these areas. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12964
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
So what is stopping us from dumping the 1000 megathrons on you? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Arla Sarain
73
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Make more cyno alts. Log them off in space until needed. Nothing changes. CCP gets more money. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So what is stopping us from dumping the 1000 megathrons on you?
Nothing. Also an insular universe would not stop that. Only players can stop it. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12964
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:baltec1 wrote:So what is stopping us from dumping the 1000 megathrons on you? Nothing. Also an insular universe would not stop that. Only players can stop it.
So nothing changes.
See this is the problem, you cant nerf power projection and trying to will not fix any of the problems with null sov. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:baltec1 wrote:So what is stopping us from dumping the 1000 megathrons on you? Nothing. Also an insular universe would not stop that. Only players can stop it. So nothing changes. See this is the problem, you cant nerf power projection and trying to will not fix any of the problems with null sov.
That's why I and others stated that such a change alone does not work. The rest of the game needs to be changed as well.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
479
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Posted - 2014.09.04 10:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Spaceman Jack wrote:Instead of directly nerfing the ships - spread out Regions, so that "Region A" is out of cyno jump range of "Region B." Making each region it's own island.
Want to invade a region? You cannot just spam it with caps. You need to establish a presence with a smaller force and entrench yourself to bring the big guns over, giving regions and sov. mechanics the some badly strategies of Attrition and Defender's Advantage.
EDITED: For Clarity
wh's said hi....only caps in system are the one's you build there. Like this idea...now you know where to go and get it right now. Well wait a bit, DT is soon based on my clock.
All you'd be removing is hole collapse mechanics. But you'd have it a major pita to get there conventional. I know, blah blah titan drops. I have been in space poor alliances. Nightly outtings 25 jumps 1 way in bs are not fun. the ride back even less fun. You pissed in someone's cornflakes...they opted to not jump you on the pos when a lost cause. They opt for payback on your exiting of the area. Sometimes....they make your leaving really really fun.
Long story short...this would be more stagnant than current 0.0. Hard to get to, caps on gate camps and you have no backdoor option to sneak in behind them. Wh's at least give the option to maybe lay low and sneak around abit if no one scans you. While I know the afk cloaky threat is the greatest threat to all of eve kind....afk cloaky but not scaring anyone since no hot drops possible is not going to reclaim that space.
edit: well that and you can get this in 0.0 too now. cyno jam all your systems. While they don't stop blop operations...it be really cool to see ninjya warfare reach new levels as we'll say PL or goons covert cyno's in blops,bombers and recons to blot out the sun. That be a hot drop I would love to see actually. |
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