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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
7
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Posted - 2014.09.02 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello all,
I, and others, have noticed a hole in the hauler line. Currently there are dedicated industrials for hauling ore, minerals, planetary items, and even ammo. These ships are new pilot friendly, they're cheap enough to be expendable, they can carry enough bulk items of their specialty to make the ships worth their costs, they're actually pretty speedy if fitted right, and they can easily be useful in all sectors of space.
What's missing is a dedicated industrial for hauling fuel for Jump Drive capable ships or PoS'es. These refueling ships would have the same advantages as other specialized T1 industrials as mentioned above. The ship would share the same, or similar, attributes as the other dedicated transports, so nothing new would need to be invented, other than perhaps a new graphic for the hauler unless an older one can be repurposed.
I would imagine the ship for only carrying manufactured fuel -- not the parts to make it. Most of the fuel ingredients are the perview of other haulers, and I wouldn't want to make the ship too needed. It should just be an option... if a very viable option. Fuel could, of course, still be carried in other general indies or freighters with their inherit advantages and disadvantages.
What racial indy line that would contain this fuel hauler wouldn't matter much at all. Any newpilot, regardless of race, could still pilot it on day one with a minor investment of time and ISK -- just like any other dedicated hauler. This is good for many reasons. The first is the obvious usefulness for alts to easily be used to move precious fuel. The second reason is that it will expand the New Player Experience. I see three immediate possibilities right out the gate: a budding new trader buying and selling fuel either for speculation or for refueling bases for others; a new corp could more easily keep it's PoS(es) fueled; and an established corp/alliance could delegate the new guy to making sure the station and fleet fuel bunkers are always topped off as a test of loyalty and because of the time honored tradition of the new guy getting the grunt-work.
Why not just use a freighter / Itty V / other Indy? Because they fill different roles, and even though they could be used to fulfill refueling duties They're differing advantages and disadvantages might make them less valuable for the role of refueling. Though in some outlieing cases, they might outshine a dedicated refueler at refueling. That's the nature of EvE: use the right tool for the right job at the right time.
One place that I see the dedicated fuel hauler would be lacking is in a true 'fleet oiler' role. It wouldn't be able to jump with capital fleet; therefore, a jump freighter might be a more useful tool in this instance. But for a 'docked' fleet, or one operating in friendly space, it's cheapness and expendableness may make it the ship of choice for refueling duties.
Also, dedicated transports have been shown to work since their release, and they haven't replaced freighters or general indies over-all. Each ship has it's role to play.
Please note that while this is a newer post about this subject, it's been brought up before but only in passing in other threads about unrelated topics. Also, the last posting about this subject that I found was a locked topic well over a year old.
Thank you for your time. --Gadget
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
75
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Posted - 2014.09.02 18:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seems legit for the new player experience as well as for new mission type. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
8
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Posted - 2014.09.03 07:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks.
Anyone else have any opinions on this one way or the other?
--Gadget |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
207
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Posted - 2014.09.03 07:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Anyone else have any opinions on this one way or the other? Just that it should absolutely positively not be Gallente. CCP's previous design decisions messed up the balance when tiericide hit and they gave them the best industrial fleet to train for.
And yes, the race does matter, because 37% extra capacity difference between rank 1 and rank 5 matters.
Otherwise, sounds good. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Rim Worlds Protectorate
152
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Posted - 2014.09.03 08:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Completely Approve of this post. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
179
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Posted - 2014.09.03 09:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1 from me. I'd also suggest these ships not to be racial; let them be ORE. On the other hand, haulers with unique bays -ammo for Minmatar, ore/gas for Gallente...- are racial, so this matter requires a more in-depth review. The concept of fuel hauling ship(s) is very good though. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
11
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Posted - 2014.09.03 20:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
I could easily see the ship as belonging to ORE, but I personally don't see that it would matter much to which race has it. Just as long as it could be trained into quickly. The ORE industrial skill trains at the same rate (x4) but costs 1.6 mil rather than 300K. That's not a big deal to an alt, but the more-than-5-times-the-ISK cost for the skillbook could be a bit daunting for a true new player. Also, keep in mind that if the ship were under one of the Empire's Indy lines, then the book would be available from a tutorial mission.
--Gadget |
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
45
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Posted - 2014.09.04 01:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
This idea sounds really neat. I like it.
I would just like to comment on the racial line discussion. I don't feel it makes sense for ORE to have this particular ship. Unfortunately, what would make sense, would be for ORE to have the industrials that transport ore and minerals. However I'm positive that it would very much upset a great deal of the playerbase who have trained Gallente industrials for that purpose.
That said, CCP has made it clear in the past that lore comes before balance, so who knows? Maybe it's a relative thing, like lore only matters when they feel it does.
Aside from that, I think Gallente would make sense for the ship in the sense of aesthetics. They have curvy ships and round parts, and liquids are usually transported in round bins, so a ship model created for this purpose would fit in perfectly with gallente.
Aside from that, Amarr and Caldari lack any specialty haulers, so they'd be good choices. Of those, Amarr does have curves in their ship designs, so a ship model in their line would potentially work.
If it does end up coming from ORE, however, I still think that'd be a great thing. ORE, unsurprisingly, does not have a lot of ships in their line, so having their skillbooks become that much more useful would be an awesome thing (their industrial book only covers the Noctis, so that's a really niche need right now). So I guess in the end, I support going to ORE anyway, if this ship were to ever be created. We could get a recoloring of the Noctis...
OMG WE COULD TOTALLY USE THE PRIMAE FOR THIS. HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch. |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
75
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Posted - 2014.09.04 09:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Komodo Askold wrote:+1 from me. I'd also suggest these ships not to be racial; let them be ORE. On the other hand, haulers with unique bays -ammo for Minmatar, ore/gas for Gallente...- are racial, so this matter requires a more in-depth review. The concept of fuel hauling ship(s) is very good though. Racial fuel requires racial fuel bay? So four different haulers each with a large racial fuel cargohold.
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
379
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Posted - 2014.09.04 11:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1 Support for a spcialized fuel bay. Finally ship suggestion which makes sense and is of use. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12964
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Posted - 2014.09.04 11:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Came expecting oiled up men, leaving dissapointed. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
14
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Posted - 2014.09.04 16:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm a little wary of the idea of a ship for each specific racial fuel. I think that's a bit too specialized. Just carrying fuel alone (plus the minor general cargo bay that all other specialized haulers have) would be more than enough.
--Gadget |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
893
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Posted - 2014.09.04 19:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
so a hauler that has a special bay just to carry fuel blocks? or fuel blocks and isotops? Either way I like it. Give more options for moving that crap. OMG Comet Mining idea!!! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331766 |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
15
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Posted - 2014.09.05 16:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think this ship should be able to carry both Jump Fuel and PoS fuel, so blocks and isotopes. If I'm missing anything else that required fuel, let me know
--Gadget |
Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
476
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Posted - 2014.09.05 16:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
If this is implemented suicide gankers will have a field day |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
15
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:If this is implemented suicide gankers will have a field day
Meh. They'll have as much fun as they've always had.
- Anything undocked is already a target.
- The ship is cheap enough to be expendable.
- The pilot will need to make the right call when, where, and how much to haul, just like any other hauler.
I really don't see ganking as to being any more of a 'problem' as it already is. Maybe in the first few weeks of the ship's introduction it'll draw some extra fire because of its newness, but thereafter it'll have the same chances of being ganked as any other hauler. And those chances get reduced when piloted smartly.
Besides, outside of High Sec, it won't get ganked... just blown up
--Gadget |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
86
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think Hoarder should do ammo and fuel Is that my two cents or yours? |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
15
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:I think Hoarder should do ammo and fuel
Had to think about this for a bit, and I'm not against this idea. I think I prefer the idea of two spereate platforms though, but if CCP were to add fuel carrying to the Hoarder, I wouldn't complain. Still, it might make the Hoarder the ultimate resupply ship... and I'm not sure if that would be a good or bad thing.
--Gadget |
DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
173
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Posted - 2014.09.07 02:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Why not have a Fuel Tender that has a large cargo bay for manufactured fuel and then a smaller cargo bay for the fuel components? |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
87
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Posted - 2014.09.07 16:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
I look at fuel like ammo... Is that my two cents or yours? |
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
17
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Posted - 2014.09.08 19:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:Why not have a Fuel Tender that has a large cargo bay for manufactured fuel and then a smaller cargo bay for the fuel components?
Well, if it did follow the design of the other specialized indies, it would have a small general cargo bay as well as the fuel hold.
Also, these indies tend to have a specialized hold of between roughly 43K and 65K m^3 depending on skill. Make it any smaller, and you might as well use a general hauler like a Bestower or Itty V. If you were to have two specialized holds, then they would each need to be much smaller. And completely replacing the general hold is a no-go in my mind if just for ammo and probe storage should the pilot need it.
--Gadget |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
17
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372369&p=4
The above link connects to a thread that is rather relevant to this one, though I disagree with the OP.
Personally, I think that specialized indies are fine where they're at -- regular indies as well. Use the smaller ones for general hauling with a bit of speed / tank. Use the larger ones for general hauling in safer areas. Use specialized cargo carriers to haul bulk loads of specific cargo with a bit of speed / tank. Use Freighetrs to haul massive amounts of cargo, and use the T2 versions of all haulers for their specialty roles.
It seems to me that the OP of this thread has lost perspective. He's comparing the special cargo haulers to the larger general haulers like the Itty V or Bestower. He should be comparing the specialized haulers with the smaller and faster general haulers like the Nereus or Sigil. They have similar roles with the difference being specialized vs. general cargo. The larger general haulers are fit for operation in 'safe' areas, and therefore fulfil a different role than the smaller general and specialized cargo haulers.
All in all, I still believe that there is a need, desire, and a place, for a dedicated fuel hauler among the industrial fleets of EvE.
--Gadget |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
88
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
The biggest hole I see in transporting cargo, is a ship with large enough cargo hold to transport more than 1-2 fighters or capital equipment through a wormhole. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
56
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:+1 Support for a spcialized fuel bay. Finally ship suggestion which makes sense and is of use. Mark it on the calendars! Send a note to the Kings, Queens, Presidents, and Dictators!
September 4 is an incredible day, because Mr. Negativity McElisionAbuse is being positive about something!
Anyway, a dedicated fuel hauler would be a fun little idea. Considering the relationship certain Minmatar tribes already have with fuel, the ship would do well for them, I think, but considering they already have one dedicated hauler (the Hoarder, for ammo), perhaps Caldari or Amarr would be better. |
Major Trant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
922
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Icarus Able wrote:If this is implemented suicide gankers will have a field day ...I really don't see ganking as to being any more of a 'problem' as it already is. Maybe in the first few weeks of the ship's introduction it'll draw some extra fire because of its newness, but thereafter it'll have the same chances of being ganked as any other hauler. And those chances get reduced when piloted smartly You missed the point.
Fuel is expensive, you are looking at cargo values for a T1 Hauler, worth half billion at current prices. This specialisation will give it a big fat bullseye, suicide gankers will love them.
OP hasn't thought this out. Totally unpractical for that reason.
Coming next: Officer and Deadspace Loot Hauler... CTRL-Q - Minmatar FW - Low Sec PvP - Euro TZ - New Player Friendly Contact: Major Trant In game channel: FeO Public Recruitment thread: CTRL-Q |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
652
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Fuel is expensive, you are looking at cargo values for a T1 Hauler, worth half billion at current prices. This specialisation will give it a big fat bullseye, suicide gankers will love them. You say that as if its a bad thing. EVE is EVE, gankers and all. The smart will profit from a fuel hauler and the dumb/lazy will create shiny kill mails for others.
OPs idea is great. +1 |
Builder AlphaOne
Imperial Guardians Black Pearl Alliance
2
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:The biggest hole I see in transporting cargo, is a ship with large enough cargo hold to transport more than 1-2 fighters or capital equipment through a wormhole.
Deep Space Transport, with a cargo bay of about 50k m3, fills this role. You do have to train for it.
*** Perhaps no change is really needed at all and we simply need to begin using the deep space transport for this. With an estimated 65k ehp defense [depending on fit] it's already tough enough for a fair cargo value [200 million?] and the built in +2 wcs makes them tough against the small low sec gate camp.
Sure, they're expensive -- but then, so is the targeted cargo, whether Fuel Blocks or Isotopes.
[there's no point to inventing a special ship to haul other ice products -- they're not worth much as all. Although the repurposed Primae as mentioned above would fit the bill nicely since virtually everyone has switched to using the Ephital for PI work.]
--older than dirt. older than EVE, too. |
Braden Fanguard
EVE University Ivy League
3
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Posted - 2014.09.11 22:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
+1. Sounds like a great addition to the fleet of specialized haulers. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
20
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Posted - 2014.09.12 17:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Icarus Able wrote:If this is implemented suicide gankers will have a field day ...I really don't see ganking as to being any more of a 'problem' as it already is. Maybe in the first few weeks of the ship's introduction it'll draw some extra fire because of its newness, but thereafter it'll have the same chances of being ganked as any other hauler. And those chances get reduced when piloted smartly You missed the point. Fuel is expensive, you are looking at cargo values for a T1 Hauler, worth half billion at current prices. This specialisation will give it a big fat bullseye, suicide gankers will love them. OP hasn't thought this out. Totally unpractical for that reason. Coming next: Officer and Deadspace Loot Hauler...
I wouldn't that far... If the ship is carrying a full hold of strat or isotopes, then it's about the same as a Miasmos full of ore. But a full load of blocks would be less than a Kyros with a full load of Morphite. How many of those have you shot down?
It comes down to the decision of the pilot. If pilots want to risk everything by filling up their hold with so much that they're a bright shiny target, then that's on them. People still try to carry Officer and Deadspace loot in abundance in Bestowers and pay the price for doing so. Those KM's circulate quickly.
This ship is to be just another tool in a pilot's fleet of ships. Use the tool for the right job, and it will excel. Use it is badly, and watch it break. I envision quite a few instances of the 'right job'. Use it in HS to ferry a well thought out amount of isotopes or stratonium or blocks for selling or restocking. Use it in Null or WH space where it's actually 'safer' to carry obscene amounts of blocks to stations within the 'protected area'. Use it to refuel fleets when they come home.
Using it outside the box, of course, is the perview of the pilots. They may find a neat, interesting, and useful way of utilizing their new tool. Or they just may get it blown up.
--Gadget |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
27
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Posted - 2014.09.18 15:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
This topic came up again in one of the chat channels, so people are still thinking along this line.
--Gadget
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