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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
http://themittani.com/features/eve-pvp-newbies
Just because you're a newbie with under 3m skillpoints doesn't mean you can't have fun! |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6295
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shilling is bad m'kay.
Also, wrong forum area Gû¼Gû¼Gû¦ My EVE The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4533
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
waaaaay ahead of you
http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/03/carebear-to-killer.html =][= |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Interesting read. The T2 finery and "All Skills At V" EFT-crafting is just a little beyond the scope of those I was pitching my article at.
Doc Fury wrote:Shilling is bad m'kay.
maybe so, however there's precious few people out there writing specifically for very low skillpoint newbies. new player retention is this game is appalling and it's very easy to see why. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
4536
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Interesting read. The T2 finery and "All Skills At V" EFT-crafting is just a little beyond the scope of those I was pitching my article at. that is the end goal , you can use a t1 Inkusus with fed navy antimatter and it works just fine, infact an incursus will get you more fights than the ishkur because bears arnt terrified of the dame thing. =][= |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20677
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Posted - 2014.09.03 00:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
It might be shilling, but it's worthwhile shilling. Anything that introduces newbies to the reality of Eve should be encouraged.
Nice Pratchett quote btw OP.
*evaluating fits with all skills at V is pretty much standard practice The difference between a carebear and a bear is that one expects the world to revolve around them, the other accepts the world for what it is and works around it.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.09.03 01:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It might be shilling, but it's worthwhile shilling. Anything that introduces newbies to the reality of Eve should be encouraged.
Nice Pratchett quote btw OP.
thanks for that!
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:*evaluating fits with all skills at V is pretty much standard practice
I understand it's the 'standard', it's also extremely newbie-unfriendly. When newbies look for guides and help with fitting, this 'standard' can leave them (me?) feeling like they're unable to do much of anything. The reality is, with some mates to back you up, a newbie can go to town in a whole bunch of exciting ways, none of which require a single T2 fitting or a host of level V skills. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9496
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Posted - 2014.09.03 01:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
EVE PvP for newbies.
The Maulus. Sensor damps are highly effective even with low skills, and four or five newbies can add a staggering force multiplier to their allies.
ECM is also nearly as effective, if they prefer Caldari. More RNG than damps though, and Gallente is a better race to train for effective T1 frigates for newer players. (although the Merlin is also highly rewarding) "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20681
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Posted - 2014.09.03 01:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:thanks for that! I'm a huge Pratchett fan, currently working my way through The Long Mars.
Quote:I understand it's the 'standard', it's also extremely newbie-unfriendly. When newbies look for guides and help with fitting, this 'standard' can leave them (me?) feeling like they're unable to do much of anything. The reality is, with some mates to back you up, a newbie can go to town in a whole bunch of exciting ways, none of which require a single T2 fitting or a host of level V skills. I know where you're coming from, the skill queues can look scary as hell. I usually make a point of suggesting people swap out T2 modules for meta items if they have insufficient skills when I post a fit. The difference between a carebear and a bear is that one expects the world to revolve around them, the other accepts the world for what it is and works around it.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Grog Aftermath
Need more grog
81
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Posted - 2014.09.03 01:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tackling isn't fun, playing possum isn't fun.
People want to shoot at something and with less than 3 million sp, you won't get much fun unless you're easily pleased firing amongst a group.
Which is why a lot of pvpers won't want to play this game, it takes too long to get into. |
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.09.03 01:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Grog Aftermath wrote:Tackling isn't fun, playing possum isn't fun.
People want to shoot at something and with less than 3 million sp, you won't get much fun unless you're easily pleased firing amongst a group.
I don't know about that. getting a tackle on a slippery opponent so your mates can finish them off is it's own brand of fun. With under 3m SP, the only thing you'll be successfully shooting solo are rocks and rats in hisec.
Grog Aftermath wrote:Which is why a lot of pvpers won't want to play this game, it takes too long to get into.
I agree the skillpoint system needs an overhaul. As it stands only bloody-minded, determined newbies will hang around. This game is suffering because of it. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
663
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Posted - 2014.09.03 02:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Interesting read. The T2 finery and "All Skills At V" EFT-crafting is just a little beyond the scope of those I was pitching my article at. that is the end goal , you can use a t1 Inkusus with fed navy antimatter and it works just fine, infact an incursus will get you more fights than the ishkur because bears arnt terrified of the dame thing.
T1/meta fit Atrons are usually a go to ship for new low sp players in Gal Mil FW. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9501
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Posted - 2014.09.03 03:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grog Aftermath wrote:Tackling isn't fun, playing possum isn't fun.
People want to shoot at something and with less than 3 million sp, you won't get much fun unless you're easily pleased firing amongst a group.
Which is why a lot of pvpers won't want to play this game, it takes too long to get into.
You have an absolutely **** poor attitude.
Tackling is epic fun, it's hilarious when half the fleet starts trying to pop you from tackling their logi. And being the bait? Oh my God is that awesome. Flying around in an overtanked Maller, trying to force people to take a crack at you? That is baller.
Dps is boring by comparison. This character? A lot of the time, I fly logi for my corp, in a Guardian. I absolutely love it, and ewar is almost as much fun, with more schadenfreude to boot since I'm shutting them down myself. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
182
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Posted - 2014.09.03 05:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Moved to My Eve. ISD Decoy Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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seany1212
Relentless Destruction The Hebrew Hammer.
265
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Posted - 2014.09.03 06:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Grog Aftermath wrote:Which is why a lot of pvpers won't want to play this game, it takes too long to get into. I agree the skillpoint system needs an overhaul. As it stands only bloody-minded, determined newbies will hang around. This game is suffering because of it.
Wrong, there is nothing wrong with the skillpoint system, it retains the players that are committed to eve and keeps out those who, for the most part, want instant gratification.
I came in in 2008 and by that time 2003 players already had a 5 year skill train headstart. Eve is something that takes time and why marketing PVP to the newbies is an uphill battle, it's better to teach them the ropes in PVE (how ships should be fit, what ships work well and what do not, how to use each ship to the best of their abilities, etc.) and give them an income source so that they can afford to PVP before you throw them into PVP low skilled and low experienced. Coupled with the fact that it is very difficult to turn a profit in PVP unless you're good at it and no new player is going to stick around after getting blobbed on the 3rd/4th/5th gatecamp/bubble/etc. because it's demoralizing.
Get them into the game and making isk first, then introduce them to PVP (plenty of evidence it can be done cheap). |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.09.03 07:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Grog Aftermath wrote:Which is why a lot of pvpers won't want to play this game, it takes too long to get into. I agree the skillpoint system needs an overhaul. As it stands only bloody-minded, determined newbies will hang around. This game is suffering because of it. Wrong, there is nothing wrong with the skillpoint system, it retains the players that are committed to eve and keeps out those who, for the most part, want instant gratification. I came in in 2008 and by that time 2003 players already had a 5 year skill train headstart. Eve is something that takes time and why marketing PVP to the newbies is an uphill battle, it's better to teach them the ropes in PVE (how ships should be fit, what ships work well and what do not, how to use each ship to the best of their abilities, etc.) and give them an income source so that they can afford to PVP before you throw them into PVP low skilled and low experienced. Coupled with the fact that it is very difficult to turn a profit in PVP unless you're good at it and no new player is going to stick around after getting blobbed on the 3rd/4th/5th gatecamp/bubble/etc. because it's demoralizing. Get them into the game and making isk first, then introduce them to PVP (plenty of evidence it can be done cheap).
I think there's something seriously wrong with requiring several months of training in order to competently* fly an Assault Frigate. I also think there's a serious attitude problem with a game that steers people into exactly the kinds of tasks that will drive them away.
EVE has a serious new player retention problem and it's a bigger problem for folk like you with many years of EVE involvement than it is for a newbie like myself. If you don't acknowledge that, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
(note: COMPETENTLY fly an Assault Frigate does not mean "get minimum skills required to sit in it". There's also basic fitting skills, gunnery, drones, etc skills that need to be trained up) |
seany1212
Relentless Destruction The Hebrew Hammer.
265
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 07:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
I think there's something seriously wrong with requiring several months of training in order to competently* fly an Assault Frigate. I also think there's a serious attitude problem with a game that steers people into exactly the kinds of tasks that will drive them away.
EVE has a serious new player retention problem and it's a bigger problem for folk like you with many years of EVE involvement than it is for a newbie like myself. If you don't acknowledge that, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
(note: COMPETENTLY fly an Assault Frigate does not mean "get minimum skills required to sit in it". There's also basic fitting skills, gunnery, drones, etc skills that need to be trained up)
But you're making the false assumption that they need to fly an Assault Frigate in order to PVP. It's been 6 years and i still can't fly a titan...
T1 Breacher Fit
I've killed more T2 fit T2 interceptors with that fit than i can count, the key part of that fit is minmatar frigate 5 (shield boost bonus at 7.5% per level) which last time i did it i believe was about 16 days from 1 to 5.
It does about 100dps and my missile skills are **** (i'm not much of a missle boat man).
Yet it still resulted in these kills and a load more of them if i have to show them
New players aren't trapped into what they need to skill, they can train what they like, but they're given the false idea that 'BIGGER IS BETTER' or that they need T2 everything in order to be good. Which is why you see ridiculous losses and loads of incursion runners in high sec with faction pirate battleships with meta guns and probably without the actual skill that they should have to be flying them.
What new players need to be taught is what battles they can realistically take by themselves, that if you've got an afterburner, web and scram you could probably **** up most interceptors in null sec mainly because most wont have a tank or a speed mod outside of an MWD and they'll probably burn directly at you in order to get a tackle. That if you're in low sec or null you're probably going to spend several days creating gate bookmarks but it'll be worth it in the end when you don't land in that bubble or on that smartbombing gate camp and get podded.
There's plenty more that new players SHOULD be learning, but i'm no blog writer and this post is turning into something long enough already. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 08:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
seany1212 wrote: But you're making the false assumption that they need to fly an Assault Frigate in order to PVP. It's been 6 years and i still can't fly a titan....
Assault Frigate was simply an example, and a pretty obvious one to use.
seany1212 wrote:New players aren't trapped into what they need to skill, they can train what they like, but they're given the false idea that 'BIGGER IS BETTER' or that they need T2 everything in order to be good. Which is why you see ridiculous losses and loads of incursion runners in high sec with faction pirate battleships with meta guns and probably without the actual skill that they should have to be flying them.
well aware of all of that, I make references to this in the article.
seany1212 wrote:There's plenty more that new players SHOULD be learning, but i'm no blog writer and this post is turning into something long enough already.
the main problem here being: the EVE NPE is so ghastly that it's a wonder anyone new sticks around.
Given the sheer number of people who multibox, I'd honestly be surprised if there's more actual, individual people playing EVE now than there was in, say, 2005. I'm sure CCP has a pretty good idea and I'm sure that knowledge is kept under lock and key and is the subject of much fretting in Reykjavik.
This is a very rich, involved game with a lot to offer. It also seems particularly adept at driving new players away. Not a recipe for keeping things growing and fresh, is it? |
seany1212
Relentless Destruction The Hebrew Hammer.
265
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 08:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:the main problem here being: the EVE NPE is so ghastly that it's a wonder anyone new sticks around. Given the sheer number of people who multibox, I'd honestly be surprised if there's more actual, individual people playing EVE now than there was in, say, 2005. I'm sure CCP has a pretty good idea and I'm sure that knowledge is kept under lock and key and is the subject of much fretting in Reykjavik. This is a very rich, involved game with a lot to offer. It also seems particularly adept at driving new players away. Not a recipe for keeping things growing and fresh, is it?
The multibox point is something i've been concerned about too, having in some cases seen an entire incursion fleet of just what seems to be one guy multiboxing. I'd love to see the actual player numbers shown when logging in too rather than the 'Pilots' statistic but as you said it's kept under lock and key.
You have motivated me however to start a story/report/blog/study or whatever it's going to be called to see how viable it is for a new player to get into actual pvp (solo/small scale) and not just be a blob cannonfodder. I'm going to try and take it from a complete new player perspective (no alts, no transferring isk, having to make isk and pvp on the same character) and hopefully show new players they can pvp without the need of big ships or T2 everything and how much of a commitment they would need to be putting in in order to do it. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 09:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:You have motivated me however to start a story/report/blog/study or whatever it's going to be called to see how viable it is for a new player to get into actual pvp (solo/small scale) and not just be a blob cannonfodder. I'm going to try and take it from a complete new player perspective (no alts, no transferring isk, having to make isk and pvp on the same character) and hopefully show new players they can pvp without the need of big ships or T2 everything and how much of a commitment they would need to be putting in in order to do it.
I'd be very interested in reading such a blog, please ping me a link when you get started!
If I can make one small suggestion, maybe sling yourself a "newbie stipend" of startup ISK? I went sightseeing in B-R5RB shortly after I started (day 2?), the bloke who blew me back to Uitra slung me ISK10m when he learned I was a complete newbie. I have a "pay it forward" debt of around ISK150m thanks to the generous people at RvB (When I've earned some ISK, I owe at least 150m to "random newbies in need" is the deal). |
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