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Wrock Solid
The Code Center
0
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Posted - 2014.09.04 10:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Saw a post on this topic but it was locked and I had quite a bit of different info that what was posted.
Had several buddies trying to work their faction for Federation Customs and I was the only guy on-line that could do L4s. My entry faction was 8.0 with the agent, 7.47 with FC.
I requested one, got a burner (presumably no penalty for declining), declined it. Faction was the same. Requested another, in low sec, declined it also (now I'm in the 4hr timer). Faction was the same. Requested another, burner, declined. Faction was the same. Requested another, accepted, we knocked it out.
Had RL stuff for a while. When I came back, the guys were back on and asking me to do another.
Requested one, it was on my "we don't like this one" list (very short list actually). So I declined it. If there is a special warning about the 4hr thing I didn't notice it but TBH, I just clicked through the warning. The prior set was about 3 hours earlier (not sure but less than 4) and I wasn't even thinking about us having played in the last week, let alone only a few hours ago when I declined one. That was ONE and only ONE penalty mission.
Faction: 7.0 with the agent (down from 8.0) and 7.0 with the corp, down from 7.47 (both with connections 3). I did accidentally do a double decline a week ago, so I'm not sure if that factors in but it sure seems like a big slap in the face for one decline.
12.5% with the agent, 6.3% with the corp. At those levels that's weeks of repair.
My numbers are much higher, perhaps in the 3x-10x range of what was posted on the other thread. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2628
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Posted - 2014.09.04 11:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Did the detail window tell you it was 12 and 6% ... or is that just what you're saying because you lost 1.0 agent and 0.47 from the corp?
Standings gains (and losses) work like this:
Ns = Cs + ((10 - Cs) * %)
(Loss is Ns = Cs - ((-10 + Cs) * %) )
Where Ns = New Standing Cs = Current Standing % = Percent Change
You've also got to consider the agent level (you get bigger losses for higher level agents) when comparing your losses to someone else ... (I don't know the thread you're talking about, so can't check).
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
voetius
BITB Support Services
260
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Posted - 2014.09.04 11:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Those figures seem way out. Declining a mission inside the 4 hour timer should give you a tiny faction drop, something like -0.01 from my experience. Unless CCP have changed something in the last few months and I don't recall anything in recent patch notes.
The penalty for cancelling a mission that you have already accepted can be steep though I've no idea what it is as it isn't something I'd want to test.
You can look at when you lost the standing by going to Character Sheet > Standings > right click on the faction and Show Transactions. You should get some info on date time and mission that would confirm what you are saying.
If you are sure you declined an offered mission rather than cancelled an accepted mission I would petition it. |
Mobbel Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
You will loose agent, corp and faction standing if you decline more than 1 mission every 4 hours. But Burners don't count in this case. So if you decline 1 regular mission and 9999999999999999999 Burner Mission in 4 hours you won't loose anything, it doesn't even matter if you decline the mission or choose to quit in this special case. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4107
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wrock Solid wrote:If there is a special warning about the 4hr thing I didn't notice it but TBH, I just clicked through the warning. The bottom of the mission report is where you should look before declining.
You see this when it is okay to decline:
Quote:Warning Declining a mission from a particular agent more than once every 4 hours will result in a loss of standing with that agent.
When it is not okay, it will say something like "within the next N hours".
Key words to look for: EVERY vs. NEXT |
Wrock Solid
The Code Center
0
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Posted - 2014.09.05 03:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks all for the help. As far as declining or quitting; it was a decline.
Tau: Very good sir, thanks (on top of the blanket thanks!).
Voteus: I did not know (or remember from last time) how to find those numbers. It was a decline and the percentages shown was -2.78%. The agent faction and corporation factions I quoted earlier agent 8.00->7.00 AND the corporation faction 7.47->7.00 (with connections 3) were also correct.
Velicitia: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94788 was the post. Detail windows show the hit? Don't know how to find that. Is that in the mission window? Despite having been a math/physics double major as well as dept tutor in both I haven't studied your equations but will. It's late and i have a workout hanging over my head tonight though.
Mobbel: Yes I understand the burners are no penalty. The reason I even bothered to list them because they are relatively new and thought that perhaps this was a bug as the hit was so huge. Thought about writing a bug report too. I closed and reopened my standings window after every turn-down of the burners (and all others) just to be sure. Someone of that post listed showed the +/- hits for turning one down and completing. It took roughly 15-20 missions to go from 7->8 and one decline to go from 8->7 for agent faction so +1.7 and -2.7 may be the right percents but the hit was huge on the net faction.
Again, thanks for all who took the time to respond apparently the faction hits don't closely follow the percentages, otherwise it would take 2 missions to fix a hit rather than 15-20 (although I'm almost always sharing mine with at least 2 others so that ups the fix time).
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2635
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Posted - 2014.09.05 09:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wrock Solid wrote:Velicitia: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94788 was the post. Detail windows show the hit? Don't know how to find that. Is that in the mission window? Despite having been a math/physics double major as well as dept tutor in both I haven't studied your equations but will. It's late and i have a workout hanging over my head tonight though.
Sorry, I called it the wrong thing. It's the "Transactions" window (go to standings page -> right click the faction / corporation / agent -> [Show] Transactions), and it'll show you all the gains and losses you've had over the past however many days (though I think only the last couple hundred, whichever it hits first -- I've never bothered really trying to figure that out).
They're pretty simple -- though I had it backwards in my OP --> it's always subtraction (addition if and only if your current standing is negative, and you're gaining).
Say you have 7.0 corp standings, and finish a mission for a 10% standings boost.
N = 7 + ((10 - 7) * 0.1) N = 7 + (3 * 0.1) N = 7.3
Same thing, but with loss (IIRC, it's been a while)
N = 7 + ((-10 - 7) * 0.1) N = 7 + (-17 * 0.1) N = 5.3
As you can see, for the same percentage change, you lose significantly more standings than you gain (although this works in reverse too -- if you have a neg 7 standing towards Amarr for example, and run several storylines, even the few percent that L1s give you will be relatively high boosts).
This math also applies (applied?) to Security status. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
5500
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Posted - 2014.09.05 13:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Your faction hits are taking these large percentage hits? That doesn't match up with my experience, I can cherry-pick missions, declining half of those offered, because the faction standing only goes down by 0.01% or so, and as long as agent and corp are above -2.0 you can continue to do the higher level missions with a high faction standing. |
Wrock Solid
The Code Center
0
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Posted - 2014.09.05 17:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Velicitia:
Transactions: Yes I found that yesterday. I only had two negatives, the one I turned down a week ago (my first ever that I remember) and this one we're discussing (now about 36 hours ago) for -2.78%.
Using your negative faction formula and my beginning standing (Cs) of +8.0.
N = 8 + (-10 -8) *.0278 N = 8+(-0.500) N = 7.5
The +/- makes difference as we are moving the % change toward the whatever is left of the direction we moved. Being +8 means I was almost 10x father from -10 than +10 and hence the big hit. Still it was about twice what the math shows it should have been. To reiterate ad naseum, it went from +8.0 down to +7.0.
I'll write it up. If the formula is still current, that was about 2x the hit we'd expect.
Thanks again. |
voetius
BITB Support Services
261
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Posted - 2014.09.05 18:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Derrick Miles wrote:Your faction hits are taking these large percentage hits? That doesn't match up with my experience, I can cherry-pick missions, declining half of those offered, because the faction standing only goes down by 0.01% or so, and as long as agent and corp are above -2.0 you can continue to do the higher level missions with a high faction standing.
This is my experience as well which is why I was surprised at the OP's figures.
About three months ago one of my alts went to an agent that was bordering low sec and I expected to have to decline alot but figured it might be worth it. I declined 7 missions in the space of 2 hours and was careful to check my standings with the agent, corp and faction after each decline and if the hit had been anything like that which the OP has stated I would have noticed immediately.
In the past I've done the cherry-picking as well using faction standings to do multiple declines though I don't usually go nuts doing this as some agents have a better "mission pool" than others and it isn't always needed. So again, unless CCP have made a change recently this confirms my experience and that of others. |
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2635
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Posted - 2014.09.05 19:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Wrock Solid wrote:Velicitia:
Transactions: Yes I found that yesterday. I only had two negatives, the one I turned down a week ago (my first ever that I remember) and this one we're discussing (now about 36 hours ago) for -2.78%.
Using your negative faction formula and my beginning standing (Cs) of +8.0.
N = 8 + (-10 -8) *.0278 N = 8+(-0.500) N = 7.5
The +/- makes difference as we are moving the % change toward the whatever is left of the direction we moved. Being +8 means I was almost 10x father from -10 than +10 and hence the big hit. Still it was about twice what the math shows it should have been. To reiterate ad naseum, it went from +8.0 down to +7.0.
I'll write it up. If the formula is still current, that was about 2x the hit we'd expect.
Thanks again.
Yeah, a nearly 3% drop shouldn't have hit for that ... maybe there's something else acting weird ... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
622
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Posted - 2014.09.07 04:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wrock Solid wrote: 12.5% with the agent, 6.3% with the corp. At those levels that's weeks of repair.
that's like 4-5 more missions, okay maybe an understatement, but in a night of mission running declining 2 or 3 doesn't ever seem to hurt overall. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
488
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Posted - 2014.09.09 03:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
OP, the thing that you call "factions" is called "standings". Faction is the bloc the company belongs to (e.g. Amarr, Minmatar, SOE). Standings are how well you are regarded by different entities in game.
"Faction standings" are your standings towards the faction. As these are more complicated and important than corp or agent standings, people talk about them more than other standings.
I think that "agent faction" thing confused a few of the posters here. He did not lose 1.0 faction standing, he lost 1.0 agent standings. Which is totally normal for one refused mission - agent standings are much more volatile, they rise and fall faster.
Wrock Solid wrote:Transactions: Yes I found that yesterday. I only had two negatives, the one I turned down a week ago (my first ever that I remember) and this one we're discussing (now about 36 hours ago) for -2.78%. Are you sure these -2.78% are for the agent's standings? The same mission gives different standing penalties (and rewards) towards the agent, the corporation and the faction. A 2.78% penalty would explain the 0.47 drop in corporation standing, which makes me wonder whether you did look at the transactions for the corporation (instead of those for the agent).
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