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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11193
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Hello again everybody. Now that the day is over I've had a little time to talk to the rest of the team.
We completely understand that having server issues in a tournament match feels terrible for the teams. You guys pour your blood, sweat and tears into your quest for victory.
The "match simulation taken as is" rule is there for very good reasons and will not be changing. We need to be able to find clear resolutions to matches no matter the circumstances, and this rule applies to everything from server issues to unexpected bugs to DDOSes and more. Rerunning a match is simply not an option, especially when we reach this point in the tournament where so many other teams rely on the results of each match.
Like Veritas said, we advise teams to test every part of their team compositions during the period after teleportation into PE1 and before warping into the arena. This is why our referee asks the teams if they are ready before we tell the competitors to warp. In this case the fact that teams had no weapons other than drones meant that testing their damage before the warping becomes more problematic, and we'll be investigating what we can do to make that process easier for teams in the future. We are definitely not attempting to assign blame to any team, as I really doubt that I would have caught this kind of thing if I was a team captain in this situation, and the fact that the match stands is not intended in any way as judgement against Shadow Cartel. They performed amazingly throughout this tournament.
Since the teams involved here had to endure a very negative experience and react to unpredictable circumstances during the match, we do want to provide them with some consolation. We know that nothing we can provide would make this match experience any less frustrating, but we want to at least do what little we can under the circumstances. So both Shadow Cartel and Afterlife. will be receiving their entry plex back (on top of the 15 plex that they won for their tournament success) and an extra set of 10 Rattlesnake skins (on top of the skins that they are entitled to for their victories).
Once again, we really wish that both of these teams had not needed to endure such frustrating issues during the match and we consider both teams to be top tier competitors worthy of praise. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Johann Landier
S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS.
3
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.
Ok in general that sounds good but I think the issues today seem to have exceeded the scope of this rule. Just a few thoughts on this:
1. CCP you need to have something in place to "review" a match that obviously had glitches and issues through out the match. I can understand not stopping the match but at the end there should have been a "hold" on the results and a review by the ref's. I don't think any team would be upset at that in the least. This is one of "your" biggest events every year and you must have systems in place to deal with it other then just "pressing on" and quoting some rule.
2. How do you "pre-check" a glitch that does not let someone see damage until it's in structure? How do the logi pilots "check this"... And I find further issue with the fact we can't seem to determine what a pre weapons check would entail. Should they have put the other ships into structure to find the damage issues? Maybe they cycled there mod's once but unless you actively get into a fight with your team mates I am not sure they could have uncovered this. Also if they could not have launched drones how would they have discovered that. The problem is I don't believe there is a "standard" established pre-check and as such it leaves to much open to way to much room for debate. Imagine your a pilot about to enter the tourney and what they are prepping for and all the ways this rule seems to be interpreted and what would you think?
3. It also seems that things were not so balanced. One team was more logi reliant then others and as such the damage issue does seem to make it more one sided and in favor of one over the other. On the surface this does not seem to have been a fair fight on many levels.
4. It feels like you "CCP" are blaming the players for what was a problem with your system by saying they should have noticed what was wrong with "your" system and told you....................
5. My hat's off to the two teams for how they have acted. The level of sportsmanship displayed by the team who lost is something I hope we could all display in a similar circumstance. That being said they put a lot of their time and money into preparing for this event and to me it seems they did not get a "fair shot"....While that is not the fault of the team that won I do feel the team who lost should not leave empty handed.
6. CCP we love your game and all the work you do but this does not pass the smell test here and as the AT is one of "your" biggest sponsored events you put on for "us" I would hope that maybe you take another look at this and the response you have given so far. |
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
77
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Posted - 2014.09.06 23:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea. You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account?
I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up.
AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11193
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Posted - 2014.09.07 00:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea. You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account? I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up. AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
Once teams warp onto the field they are not allowed to move, activate modules or drop drones. Veritas is talking about the period of time after teleportation but before warping.
Since this appears to be an area where there is some confusion I'll look into adding some lines to the rules to make it more clear in the future. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Shnjago
Zusjabry Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.09.07 00:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
If I understand the CCP right, teams are supposed to do some sort of "regression testing" before fighting begins.
This may be problematic since QA activities of this kind are usually pretty sophisticated and may take quite some time. Also, it may be well outside of pilots' expertise.
Do you really expect pilots to check that every single module works as intended? DCII gives the amount of resists it should, faction ammo's damage is in expected range and split across damage types in a proper way, drones aren't forgetting their commands etc.? It could be nice to see such kind of checklist. I can only imagine surprise of a guy who just discovered his warp scrambler doesn't disable enemy's MWD because server isn't properly configured/restarted. The CCP's answer would probably be "well you should've checked it before the match starts".
If you guys aren't providing any guarantees that tournament game mechanics is identical to usual experience, the AT can be taken to a whole new level -- just bring some random glitches. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
794
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Posted - 2014.09.07 00:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
how about a few prize ships? |
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858 Heroes and Villains.
923
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Posted - 2014.09.07 01:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea. You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account? I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up. AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND. Once teams warp onto the field they are not allowed to move, activate modules or drop drones. Veritas is talking about the period of time after teleportation but before warping. Since this appears to be an area where there is some confusion I'll look into adding some lines to the rules to make it more clear in the future. Why not just admit to the truth of the server perormance having an impact on the match? One could argue the playerbase is insulted by the suggestion of otherwise. Trying to shift the emphasis onto the players while retracting from what was the real issue is rather comical and evasive. If anybody from the CCP PR dept wishes to enlighten the community as to why any of these assertions might be wrong, i'd welcome it. Concord Approved Trader |
Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
4
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Posted - 2014.09.07 01:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
I would like to understand how it is "not an option" to replay a match, that seems like something everyone on stream would be willing to wait around for and wouldn't push the day's schedule back more than the random technical issues do almost every day of the AT stream. ( considering the final match on any given AT weekend ends about 1 1/2 to 2 hours later than initially expected anyways)
Technical mistakes are made all the time, that doesn't mean that CCP or the teams should have to suffer bc of them. And its not as if people really care as long as the teams are all given a fair chance to participate.
<3 |
Naughty Cargo
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
25
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Posted - 2014.09.07 02:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gfy Trextron wrote:They deserve at the very least, an explenation of the events announced during the tournament tomorrow, refund of tourney fee, free spot next year, and any prizes they would have recieved if they had won that match. All imaginary or free items.
Obviously the items have been all sorted and plex refunded and whatnot, but I agree something should be said. What really disappointed me was that watching, no comment was made. Not one comment on the stream, even though twitch chat was alight with complaints and calls out. Obviously it is all just an unfortunate mistake that just happened to lead to a very disappointing turn of events. :/
A bad day for Shadow Cartel, what with the incursion in home system too, but hats off to the team <3 You put a lot into this guys, and you held your own right up to the end. <3 Asa <3
Let's hope, for the sake of other teams more than anything, something like this can't happen again. Please sort it out CCP, cause this sorta puts a dampener on what was, and should be, a highlight of the EVE calender. |
Marcius Decimus
The Dutch Rudder
22
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Posted - 2014.09.07 03:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well, I have to withdraw my concerns. It does suck this happened, but CCP has responded and backed off the whole "blame the victim schtick" they originally were pressing.
I do concur with other posters, replay may have been a possibility or halting play in mid-stream, but I also understand that there were likely a lot of dynamics involved in trying to reimburse players, avoid the problem of knowing the opposing teams fits, and then trying to restart a match. There are some programming issues here I am sure that just cannot be resolved with a double click.
I am glad they refunded entry fees, that was a good move.
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Calmatt
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
121
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Posted - 2014.09.07 03:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
The "pre weapons check" comment was absolutely folly, pure and simple. You insult everyone by insisting on that. If the determining factor is that there are good reasons the tournament has to press on, simply stick to that, and do not deviate (or better yet explain). Again, it was fairly insulting to read that comment as if they're supposed to be well versed in determining bugs in the system |
slim picins
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
4
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Posted - 2014.09.07 04:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
TLDR...heartbreaking!
Feel bad for Asa and all our pilots who worked so hard towards that - pathetically managed - end!
CCP - wow!?
Best of luck to Afterlife. & the other teams!
slim |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11409
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Posted - 2014.09.07 05:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
I don't really care about the AT, but this notion that rematches will not be held is pretty bullshit. The excuse that "so many other teams rely on the results of each match" is ridiculous. The other teams rely, much more strongly, on the tournament being held and administered properly. This obviously didn't happen, and to have the outcome potentially altered because of technical issues throws the entire result into question for every team still in the running.
There's no reason not to reimburse all ships involved and hold a rematch. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
NitroZeoN
Resilient Roamers
2
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Posted - 2014.09.07 07:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
In football the referee checks the pitch before kickoff to make sure its a safe playing surface (waterlogged ect.) In tennis the rackets are checked, the balls are checked everything is checked by the umpire Cricket, umpire checks. Every competition the Ref, Judge, Event organizers check these things.
It is not up to the players to check.
If the game played till the end its a difficult call but if anyone said anything in local or to an organizer before the end of the match the match should have been stopped and reset.
After this quote by Veritas: "I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea." i think you guys at CCP should check what each other write before pressing post as this is just insulting to the players. Fozzie on the other hand is very diplomatic.
Im glad i got to see this weekends matches, it was fun although it ended late. I missed last weeks matches and would have liked to have caught up before this week. Still cant see it on Youtube though which is quite annoying. |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
73
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Posted - 2014.09.07 09:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Obviously this massively sucks, apparently we brought 120 less dps than the other team (ironic as we normally bring the most lol) As soon as the match started there was chatter in local from both teams that the server was screwed -in the future is it possible to freeze the game or something? 1% tidi? Maybe have a precedent that if both captains type "pause" in local - the match is paused /1% tidi'd and then a proper discussion can be had?
There really should be a rematch precedent as well - i can understand resistance to one when there are server issues but one team was massively ahead, but in this case it went down to the dps bar - clearly as even as it could possibly be and huge grounds for an immediate rematch, same bans or not, same ships or not or whatever - obviously this can't be done now but it would be nice if this didnt happen to other teams in the future (at this stage it's unlikely we'll do the AT again - far too much effort put in for it to end like this)
Also the fact that the dmg bar can be modified by heating your modules at the start of the match surely not a good way of measuring dmg - does it also take into account the highest dps drone win?
Good luck to the remaining teams - rooting for you tuskers |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
50
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Posted - 2014.09.07 10:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.
There is absolutely no way in hell any reasonable team would expect to have these kind of issues. There is absolutely no way in hell that any reasonable team would shoot each other AT ALL on the beacon before warp in.
Honestly, CCP may well have just cost a team their chances of winning tourney ships. This is a bigger deal than most people (probably not fozzie) can imagine at ccp. If we had lost to this nonsense, and raivi had still been on our team, he would be hating on CCP for not rescheduling the match.
For the love of god, dont try to put this on the players for not 'checking their ships', you changed something on the server and messed up. This is your responsibility. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
77
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Posted - 2014.09.07 10:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
FWIW, it looked during the match like damage was being applied server side, but didn't update in the client until targets hit structure and the added visual effects kicked in. This would have affected all UI updates, including the stream overlay, confusing pilots to what was actually going on, but probably didn't change the outcome significantly. It would still have been Golem v Golem at the end with the same tie-breaker.
It's clear from the CRE-àT data that, apart from having to re-aggress drones manually, it wa-ò actually w-+rking fine in the background. http://null-sec.com/atxii/#/replay/110/0 |
Jessica Danikov
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
387
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
Sure, players should check their ships are operational (as explicitly stated), but I think it's unfair to expect them to ensure the game is operational. |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
272
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Posted - 2014.09.07 12:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Why aren't you guys pointing at the real culprit, TEST? They broke the game and caused all these issues, redact their sov or something as a punishment before they lose it themselves again. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1297
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Posted - 2014.09.07 14:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Once teams warp onto the field they are not allowed to move, activate modules or drop drones. Veritas is talking about the period of time after teleportation but before warping.
This is bullshit, and I'm going to break a forum rule by posting chat logs from Rote's trip to PE1-R1 yesterday to show you why.
Quote:n++[ 2014.09.06 17:57:38 ] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : PE1-R1 n++[ 2014.09.06 17:58:30 ] CCP Mimic > Welcome back! Please check all systems, but do not drop drones! n++[ 2014.09.06 17:58:44 ] CCP Mimic > Sorry about the delay guys, n++[ 2014.09.06 17:58:47 ] CCP Mimic > We will be using Battle Arena 5 (FIVE) today, so find it on your overview and stand by. Further instructions will be delivered here in local, so keep it relatively clear.
I've highlighted the relevant line.
I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at, and precisely WHY it is such a mindbogglingly stupid and inaccurate statement to make. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
78
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Posted - 2014.09.07 14:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:FWIW, it looked during the match like damage was being applied server side, but didn't update in the client until targets hit structure and the added visual effects kicked in. This would have affected all UI updates, including the stream overlay, confusing pilots to what was actually going on, but probably didn't change the outcome significantly. It would still have been Golem v Golem at the end with the same tie-breaker. It's clear from the CRE-àT data that, apart from having to re-aggress drones manually, it wa-ò actually w-+rking fine in the background. http://null-sec.com/atxii/#/replay/110/0
TIL having a health bar and a working watch list aren't actually helpful to logi pilots. |
Malus Fenix
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.09.07 15:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
Really disappointing reading the replies from CCP here. Blaming it on the players when it was a broken server is just bad business. RvB was also told to not drop drones at the pre match beacons, this is after we did to check on them and they got stuck and would not return. You need to get everyone on the same page. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
796
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Posted - 2014.09.07 17:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Malus Fenix wrote:Really disappointing reading the replies from CCP here. Blaming it on the players when it was a broken server is just bad business. RvB was also told to not drop drones at the pre match beacons, this is after we did to check on them and they got stuck and would not return. You need to get everyone on the same page.
I think they're counting on not enough people knowing or caring about what happened. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
77
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Posted - 2014.09.07 19:29:00 -
[54] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:FWIW, it looked during the match like damage was being applied server side, but didn't update in the client until targets hit structure and the added visual effects kicked in. This would have affected all UI updates, including the stream overlay, confusing pilots to what was actually going on, but probably didn't change the outcome significantly. It would still have been Golem v Golem at the end with the same tie-breaker. It's clear from the CRE-àT data that, apart from having to re-aggress drones manually, it wa-ò actually w-+rking fine in the background. http://null-sec.com/atxii/#/replay/110/0 TIL having a health bar and a working watch list aren't actually helpful to logi pilots. It's not really when the two logi pilots die in the first 30s of the match. |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
81
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Posted - 2014.09.07 20:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Not easy to know you need to rep someone who doesnt know he was taking damage- trouser took 6 volleys, getting reps on would have made a difference |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
77
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Posted - 2014.09.07 20:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Maybe 2-3 extra volleys, but my point was he would still have died.
Not saying it wasn't ****** what happened, just that it probably didn't mean much for the eventual outcome. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
797
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Posted - 2014.09.07 20:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think the general confusion for the duration is much more important. yes, it was on both sides, but it's still not a proper match.
and I'm not sure we would've died - we were burning into those sentries. a few more seconds more of heated mwd could've done it - did in testing a bunch of times. |
Slicr
29
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Posted - 2014.09.07 21:17:00 -
[58] - Quote
Sad CCP just sad. Match should have been stopped, investigated and restarted.
I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.
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Magos Jereg
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.07 22:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
As a player who started into Eve this year I was super excited to watch the Alliance tournament, but I have to say, the fact that CCP couldn't manage to monitor and understand their own systems enough to understand an issue was going on, then put the entire onus of this onto the players participating in their PR/E-sports event by quoting the TOS at them is just completely unacceptable. I've gone from "wow this is really neat" to "what a complete waste of time", due completely to CCP's lack of technical proficiency matched with an utter disregard for their player base. The match should have been stopped, the issues resolved, then the match restarted, regardless of scheduling issues. Having a TOS statement to fall back on does not equate to quality service, quality management, or customer service, in fact it usually indicates a complete lack of control and direction regarding the response to an issue.
This reeks of not trying at all, at just wanting it to be over, at just not caring one little bit about the actual event going on. CCP's focus was entirely on how many potential/current customers overall were interacting with the event from a PR POV, with not one bit given to the integrity of the event itself.
CCP, you make it so hard to like a game thats hard to like already. You're hands off, its not our responsibility attitude towards the game and the experience the players have has left your player base as low hanging fruit, just waiting to be plucked by someone with a similar game and more fun.
Stahp. |
Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
7
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Posted - 2014.09.07 22:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
Magos Jereg wrote:As a player who started into Eve this year I was super excited to watch the Alliance tournament, but I have to say, the fact that CCP couldn't manage to monitor and understand their own systems enough to understand an issue was going on, then put the entire onus of this onto the players participating in their PR/E-sports event by quoting the TOS at them is just completely unacceptable. I've gone from "wow this is really neat" to "what a complete waste of time", due completely to CCP's lack of technical proficiency matched with an utter disregard for their player base. The match should have been stopped, the issues resolved, then the match restarted, regardless of scheduling issues. Having a TOS statement to fall back on does not equate to quality service, quality management, or customer service, in fact it usually indicates a complete lack of control and direction regarding the response to an issue.
This reeks of not trying at all, at just wanting it to be over, at just not caring one little bit about the actual event going on. CCP's focus was entirely on how many potential/current customers overall were interacting with the event from a PR POV, with not one bit given to the integrity of the event itself.
CCP, you make it so hard to like a game thats hard to like already. You're hands off, its not our responsibility attitude towards the game and the experience the players have has left your player base as low hanging fruit, just waiting to be plucked by someone with a similar game and more fun.
Stahp.
Hey CCP PR Department!!! read this newbro's post^^^ he's spot on. And for once try to remember that it's players and groups like the ones that compete in the AT that keep EVE interesting and do the things in game that make media headlines (and promote your business for you).
Atleast read the guys post though and take something from it, this is a fairly new player that is giving you an honest opinion on their experience, i dont know what else you could ask for as a Developer in order to create a better marketing strategy.
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