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Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
35
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Posted - 2014.09.08 17:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I know I'm not the first nor am I the last to ask this question: How do I know when my skills are proficient enough to fly *ship name here*?
Most of the time when people link or talk about ships, it's in EFT with all skills at 5. Obviously it would be rediculous to wait for that before you flew any ship. Is there a magic number for tank / dps that you're looking for? I could give some specific examples if anyone is interested in advising me on their opinions. |
Absolutely Not Analt
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
75
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Posted - 2014.09.08 18:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
There are no magic numbers, and a lot of it will depend on your skill as a player over and above whatever skill your character has. All I can give you are some general rules of thumb.
1. You don't need all level 5s. 2. You don't even need all level 4s 3. You need to be able to understand the role the ship is designed to fill (player skill) and fit the ship to fill that role effectively (character skill).
For example, if you want to fly kiting ships, then you will generally need long range weapons and a decent level of skills with prop mods. If you want to fly close in brawlers, then short range weapons and the ability to hold your opponent in place are critical.
If you want to post some specifics, feel free, but be aware that the question you have asked is VERY subjective, and depends as much on the ship itself as it does anything else. Eve is a multi player game.-áAnd you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6575
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd agree with what Analt said.
I'd just like to add another example, that might help you get it better. Take your typical new player getting in to a battleship intending to do missions. He thinks it's a good upgrade in tank and spank and wants to jump in it immediately to breeze through lvl 4 missions with ease. Problem being that to make the ship work and perform better a lot of skills can be required, that are not always immediately obvious. A BS is after all a much slower and easier to hit target for the enemy. Its weapons systems will have a harder time to do their full damage to their targets or are totally incapable of killing small targets that get too close without help. If you only have the ship skills and don't understand what you're getting in to, you're likely to perform worse and even lose your shiny new ship. So in order to get things to perform as planned he needs to understand how to fly battleships, how to fit them and then train the skills needed to make that happen. If he doesn't do that, he would have been better off not moving on to BSs yet. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4112
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Posted - 2014.09.08 22:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
You need: * To be able to fit a sufficient defence. * To be able to fit a sufficient offence. * Enough ISK or spares to recover from losing it.
Example of not quite being ready: You can sit in a battleship, but can only fit T1 tank modules, and can't use large weapons nor drones.
Another example: I can sit in any supercarrier, but I can't use fighter bombers.
For the record, I lost my first battleship a day after I got it. I had the skills, but not the know-how. I lost the ship because I made a silly mistake; a battleship tanks a lot differently than the battlecruiser I had been using. I replaced the battleship immediately (wasn't insured, doh!), and never lost another one that way again.
I recommend platinum insurance the first time you undock in a ship that is new to you. |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 01:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for all the advice so far! I guess I'l be more specific with my situation, which I hope with advice will help me make good decisions with other ships / fits in the future.
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir This is with all skills at 5 This is with my current skills
I'm in the middle of training all the pertinent skills to 4 / 5 but am wondering if it's too early to hop in it now. My tank between the two situations isn't something that I would think holds me back. I'm just concerned with my applied DPS and if I would be better off flying something I am closer to the "all skills at 5" benchmark.
You don't need to tell me that if I have to ask I probably shouldn't fly it. I'm going to get blown up and I'm fine with that. Practice makes perfect. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4112
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Posted - 2014.09.09 01:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Probably be fine for level 4 missions in a Maelstrom or Tempest. I'd lean to the Maelstrom myself. [I use a Vargur.] |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 01:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Probably be fine in a Malestrom. Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp.
I was more or less asking if 448 DPS (my skills) vs 645 DPS (skills at 5) is enough of a difference to deter YOU from flying it. My tank is fine IMO. The more I think about what I'm asking as I type, the more I figure it's all situational and of personal preference. I'm sure there would be times where my 448 DPS isn't enough against a target where if I just had one more skill trained up to 5 it would have made a difference.
I just hate feeling like I NEED all skills at 5 in order to be effective. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4112
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 01:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Probably be fine in a Malestrom. Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp. You realize that is the first time you mentioned that in this thread
Most rookies ask about battleships in missions, hence my reply. |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
35
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Posted - 2014.09.09 01:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Probably be fine in a Malestrom. Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp. You realize that is the first time you mentioned that in this thread In text yes, but I posted images of EFT clearly displaying the fit for my Sacrilege. No worries at this point though. Once I finish out my next 2 or so weeks of Missile training I will take it out for a spin. I'm just concerned with my actual DPS compared to my theoretical DPS when plugged into EFT.
Didn't mean to come off ungrateful, sorry. Thank you for your replies. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
869
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 02:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Specifically on the Sac: It looks like your tank will be about the same, but your DPS is lacking. So obviously, you just need to keep on those skills. It sounds like your prepared to lose a ship or two, so that's the main thing. That your expectations are realistic.
If your in a gang, *average* skills will not be so apparent. But if you're solo.... that's where every edge makes a difference. And in general, I'd apply that train of thought to about every situation.
I think some ships need to be close to perfect to shine. Logistics ships for instance, kinda suck with skills at IV. Add the fact that other pilots are risking their ships based on your skills, and its almost a no-brainer. Same goes for a PVE Tengu. It just does much better with V's. Falcon Arazu Vindicator Scorpion Carriers and Supers. To me, these ships all need pretty damn good skilling. Both because of the cost involved, and also because they just SHINE when they are maxed out. |
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Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 02:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Specifically on the Sac: It looks like your tank will be about the same, but your DPS is lacking. So obviously, you just need to keep on those skills. It sounds like your prepared to lose a ship or two, so that's the main thing. That your expectations are realistic.
If your in a gang, *average* skills will not be so apparent. But if you're solo.... that's where every edge makes a difference. And in general, I'd apply that train of thought to about every situation.
I think some ships need to be close to perfect to shine. Logistics ships for instance, kinda suck with skills at IV. Add the fact that other pilots are risking their ships based on your skills, and its almost a no-brainer. Same goes for a PVE Tengu. It just does much better with V's. Falcon Arazu Vindicator Scorpion Carriers and Supers. To me, these ships all need pretty damn good skilling. Both because of the cost involved, and also because they just SHINE when they are maxed out. You make very good points about support ships, especially if you're in a situation where shinies are relying on you to do your job well. Thank you for the input. The sac will be for hunting WT's, where I'll just have to asses the situation. If my theoretical 448 DPS might not be enough, I'll just have to call in the wolfpack to help! |
onions2
Overwhelming Synergy
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 14:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Not sure it's completely relevant, however my general principle (with my alt) is to aim for level 3 mastery of a specific ship, before i go and buy it. GÇ£To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skillGÇ¥ |
Absolutely Not Analt
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 18:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
I am going to echo what Raven said:
Keep working on the DPS skills especially Warhead Upgrades, as that applies to any missile launcher you use. I would get that to a 4 as soon as reasonably possible.
That aside, you've got decent support skills, and as long as you're ready to lose a ship or two figuring out what you shouldn't do or where you're lacking, I'd say go fir it, just remember the key to winning fights is always (no matter your skills) picking the right targets. Edit to add, also get the HAC skill up to a 4 as soon as you can, as I beleieve that also affects your DPS on the Sac. Eve is a multi player game.-áAnd you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
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Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 23:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Absolutely Not Analt wrote:I am going to echo what Raven said:
Keep working on the DPS skills especially Warhead Upgrades, as that applies to any missile launcher you use. I would get that to a 4 as soon as reasonably possible.
That aside, you've got decent support skills, and as long as you're ready to lose a ship or two figuring out what you shouldn't do or where you're lacking, I'd say go fir it, just remember the key to winning fights is always (no matter your skills) picking the right targets. Edit to add, also get the HAC skill up to a 4 as soon as you can, as I beleieve that also affects your DPS on the Sac. Thanks for the tips... Tonight I'll work on a skill plan that optimizes the skills I train. I may share it here to get some feedback.
This is why I'm excited to get in my Sac
This is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank. |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 04:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
I read a post by Tau where he gives his logic when deciding on his own skill training. I like his methods of prioritizing certain skills and when they should be trained. I know no one probably cares, but I'm going to attempt to put together a plan to get me in something that is near-perfect.
I can justify the time invested in HAC's (the Sac specifically) because it is considered one of the "go-to" ships for general merc work among my alliance. So here we have it:
Quote:
- Heavy Assault Missiles V
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization I
- Heavy Assault Cruisers I
- Armor Rigging III
- Armor Rigging IV
- Missile Projection I
- Heavy Assault Cruisers II
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization II
- Missile Projection II
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization III
- Heavy Assault Cruisers III
- Warhead Upgrades III
- Missile Projection III
- Rapid Launch IV
- Cybernetics V
- Heavy Assault Cruisers IV
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization IV
- Warhead Upgrades IV
- Missile Bombardment V
- Guided Missile Precision IV
- Target Navigation Prediction IV
- Gallente Drone Specialization IV
- Missile Projection IV
- Heavy Assault Cruisers V
- Rapid Launch V
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V
- Warhead Upgrades V
- Missile Projection V
- Target Navigation Prediction V
Training Time: 139d, 3h, 41m, 8s (with my high-grades)
The earlier part of this plan may be a little tricky to maintain with the short train times (real life schedule sucks). So where I foresee not being able to make it in time to inject another skill, I will inject Cybernetics V and train until I can get to the computer and get back on the plan.
Let me know if anyone sees any glaring faults in this plan. |
Luwc
Brodozers Inc.
218
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Skilled enough to not shitfit it. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 17:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:I read a post by Tau where he gives his logic when deciding on his own skill training. I like his methods of prioritizing certain skills and when they should be trained. I know no one probably cares, but I'm going to attempt to put together a plan to get me in something that is near-perfect. I can justify the time invested in HAC's (the Sac specifically) because it is considered one of the "go-to" ships for general merc work among my alliance. So here we have it: Quote:
- Heavy Assault Missiles V
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization I
- Heavy Assault Cruisers I
- Armor Rigging III
- Armor Rigging IV
- Missile Projection I
- Heavy Assault Cruisers II
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization II
- Missile Projection II
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization III
- Heavy Assault Cruisers III
- Warhead Upgrades III
- Missile Projection III
- Rapid Launch IV
- Cybernetics V
- Heavy Assault Cruisers IV
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization IV
- Warhead Upgrades IV
- Missile Bombardment V
- Guided Missile Precision IV
- Target Navigation Prediction IV
- Gallente Drone Specialization IV
- Missile Projection IV
- Heavy Assault Cruisers V
- Rapid Launch V
- Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V
- Warhead Upgrades V
- Missile Projection V
- Target Navigation Prediction V
Training Time: 139d, 3h, 41m, 8s (with my high-grades) The earlier part of this plan may be a little tricky to maintain with the short train times (real life schedule sucks). So where I foresee not being able to make it in time to inject another skill, I will inject Cybernetics V and train until I can get to the computer and get back on the plan. Let me know if anyone sees any glaring faults in this plan.
things I follow lv4 with ship skills, t2 tank. if worried about dps application try it in a lv2 or in a belt. if not where you want it it train those skills for dps first.
If thats the order that you want to train in i would suggest getting things to lv4 before T2 missiles |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
1397
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 04:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:This is why I'm excited to get in my SacThis is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank.
You should never ever use a T2 energy neut. The 'unstable' line does the exact same thing for less fitting.
Also, I hear Legions are good :) |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 20:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:This is why I'm excited to get in my SacThis is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank. You should never ever use a T2 energy neut. The 'unstable' line does the exact same thing for less fitting. Also, I hear Legions are good :) Good point. I will swap it out. I can afford to lose a couple sacs for the price I'd pay for a legion. Sorry if the formatting sucks, I'm on my iPhone. Give this a look over: http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/01/sexy-times-pleasure-sac.html?m=1 |
Xanato Kaso
Kaso Enterprises
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 01:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
I would say when you get into a new ship your minimum required skills should be tank. If you can tank whatever you are flying into that is all that matters, if your spank is low it just means it takes you a lot longer to do your thing, but as long as you can properly fit and use the tank the ship requires you wont lose the ship. |
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Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2014.09.19 10:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
for flying the sac, the first and most important is to get HAC to at least 4 as it gives bonuses to 5 different things.
you can t2 tank already which is always the next thing i look to do
then look at getting all my applicable support skills to 4
the get weapon support skills to 4
then t2 weapons
then as it is a doctrine ship, i would be going for 5 on as much as possible on any applicable skills- missile support, navigation, ewar etc |
Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 21:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:for flying the sac, the first and most important is to get HAC to at least 4 as it gives bonuses to 5 different things.
you can t2 tank already which is always the next thing i look to do
then look at getting all my applicable support skills to 4
the get weapon support skills to 4
then t2 weapons
then as it is a doctrine ship, i would be going for 5 on as much as possible on any applicable skills- missile support, navigation, ewar etc Thanks for the input! Got a quick side-situation with an alt. The goal of my alt is to be in a cloaky combat boosting T3. This toon so far is strictly used for scanning with combat probes. I currently have Astrometrics 5, rangefinding 4, acquisition 4, and pinpointing 4. Is having even t1 boosts from a proteus a better use of my time, rather than spending 20+ days a piece to get my last 3 scanning skills to 5? 5s are always good, but in this case is it going to hurt me to stick with 4s in those 3 skills while I get T1/T2 proteus boosts? |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 06:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:How do I know when my skills are proficient enough to fly *ship name here*? When it wouldn't break your wallet (or heart) to lose it.
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Faylee Freir
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 11:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:How do I know when my skills are proficient enough to fly *ship name here*? When it wouldn't break your wallet (or heart) to lose it. Meh, I think there's more to it than that. Like right now my skills aren't all at 5. I'm going to be pulling 516 DPS instead of 656. My tank is also 586 instead of 612 dps tank at level 5 skills. The question is, do the majority of people consider these differences a large enough deterrent to stop them from flying it?
I'm thinking that it's probably not a huge deal to go ahead and fly it. I just get all hung up on having near-perfect skills because anytime anyone talks about a ship or fit, they always link something displaying "All level V". |
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 13:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Shiloh Templeton wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:How do I know when my skills are proficient enough to fly *ship name here*? When it wouldn't break your wallet (or heart) to lose it. Meh, I think there's more to it than that. Like right now my skills aren't all at 5. I'm going to be pulling 516 DPS instead of 656. My tank is also 586 instead of 612 dps tank at level 5 skills. The question is, do the majority of people consider these differences a large enough deterrent to stop them from flying it? I'm thinking that it's probably not a huge deal to go ahead and fly it. I just get all hung up on having near-perfect skills because anytime anyone talks about a ship or fit, they always link something displaying "All level V".
i think you are looking at it the wrong way round- dont look how much you are missing from being max.
just consider are you happy flying around in a 516dps ship with a 586dps tank? i would imagine it could deal with most situations really and be happy that eventually you can put out more dps and have abigger tank. if you go out with lower dps/ tank and learn to fly it properly- you will be super awesome when maxxed out
i havent got a single maxed out ship at all. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
296
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 14:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Think of it more as-- what role do I play in a fleet, what skills does that require, do I have those skills?
Role is more important than ship. It largely determines the ships you choose, the modules you fit, and the tactics you employ. Even having all V's in a given field won't make you effective at actually doing it. Tackle, for example is more than warp jamming and webbing skills- it often requires manual piloting of a ship to not bounce out of scram/distruptor/web range. It often goes along with scouting duty, sometimes probing for targets. etc.
So while you might have great skills to fly that shiny Dramiel- do you know what to do other than Orbit/Fire? Can you scout ahead of a fleet and survive a tackle while your main fleet rushes to the fight? Do you know how to keep up transversal or when your hull can't survive another volley and you need to GTFO?
When it comes to expensive ships- these largely focus very specifically at single roles in a fleet, and are best flown when you have a deeper understanding of that role. Until then, flying something cheaper is often going to be a better option. Logi is a good example of this. Again, skill training alone won't teach you the broadcast system, hotkeys, making cap chaining second nature, staying behind your main fleet but within rep range at all times.......you can learn some hard lessons in shiny T2's, or make your SRP guy happy and fly T1's to learn the ropes.
IMO, you are ready to fly a ship once you know how to use it properly- not just when you hit a certain number of IV's and V's. That said, it's also important to be able to properly fit any ship. There is little sense in flying an expensive hull only to slap a bunch of meta 2 modules on it. If you need half your slots for fitting mods- chances are the ship you fly will be sub-par for it's given role anyway. |
GordonO
The Oasis Group
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 00:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Train missile support skills to 4 and hac to 4 and you should be fine.. . |
O'nira
United System's Commonwealth
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 04:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
This comes down to personal preference, i know some people that won't touch a ship until all their relevant skills are 5 And i know some who are perfectly fine flying ships with lvl2 skills.
I personally don't like waiting for months to fly a ship so i evemon/eft ***** a lot to see where my training would be most effective and then hop in it when i feel like my numbers won't be a total embarrassment compared to all 5 same ship, i also sometimes use cheap 2-3% implants to narrow that gap.
but in the end its all up to you |
Junkiloton
Junk's Empire Welfare and Utilities
4
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 14:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Metaphorically speaking, the point at which you should fly something is when you stop going "I can't use that yet..."
But yeah, if you're not having to sh--fit it, that's about the right time to fly something. |
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