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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
325
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Been playing the game for 10 years. Been in many alliances that would hold you accountable for the isk efficiency of your corp or in some cases of individual characters/FC's.
I had a bit of an epiphany yesterday. I killed about 800mil in ships with losses of about 60mil. After all was said and done we went out again and ended up welping a fleet of bombers on a surprise cruiser fleet.
turns out that old timers like me were like, "bloody hell, we should have won that" but the newbies in our fleet were like "OMG WE HOTDROPPED!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!! FC <3 <3 <3"
That op had an isk efficiency of zero. We lost 15 bombers and a rapier to zero kills. But it was fun to listen to comms when the new guys were like. "set it up again!", "do it again!"
Man.... At what point did I lose that feeling?
FD8K isk efficiency.
T- |
Amyclas Amatin
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
328
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/HmYt0eQ.png For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/ High-Sec has a future, But do You? Buy a Mining Permit to Secure yours today. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
759
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
You probably lost that feeling around the same time most newbros do: when some sperglord started raging at you after each whelped fleet. |
Ria Nieyli
20429
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote: "OMG WE HOTDROPPED!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!! FC <3 <3 <3"
I almost feel bad for those people. And all roads lead to Tranquility Base, where the frown on my face disappears... |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
326
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
LOL. Well maybe some of that did rub off on me. If it did, I'm happy about it.
I enjoyed my time as a "little bee" but I had to take a break from EVE. I got burned out because Goons want the outside world to believe they are little bees, without concern and without "duties" but that only goes so far. I redeployed about 25 bil worth of ships back and forth through all of new Eden 1/2 dozen times in a year's time. "Go here" "go there". "Make it happen". "gogogo".
I finally ended up in syndicate running roams and participating in fleets with up to 50 bil isk on the field at one time.
And if you welp that, then you can't pay for it out of your wallet any more. The pressure starts to grow. You want to win. You must win. ........ you can't lose.
The 350mil bomber fleet was a loss you can understand. You can laugh about that. Losing a dozen dreadnaughts is not. Sure SRP and blah blah blah but there is a lot of second guessing. After DBRB -- who like him or hate him -- is one of Goonswarms most prolific FC's welped a trillion isk fleet in Asakai he created EPIC EVE content but lost his FC tag for ... how long? 6 months?
So, where was I going with that.....? oh yeah... that the facade of "happy little bees" is great, but only if you don't get in deep.
T-
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1499
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reminds me of a talk I had with an alliance recruiter yesterday. Told me we'd need to polish up our stats if we were to join them. He literally admitted he would get flak for losing expensive stuff. These guys don't hold sov, don't hold space assets and have nothing to lose. They just (hot)drop people. So I asked what practical purpose it would serve to improve our KB. Turns out there's no such thing, it's just about prestige and being able to link other people a webpage that says 98% effiency. I'm to pragmatic to care. |
Bronson Hughes
Prophets of Fear
397
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
I prefer efficiency for myself, not out of prestige or bragging rights or anything like that, but because, even after playing on and off since 2006, I'm relatively space poor. Mind you, I know how to make ISK, and I do it relatively well, it's just that I have such a relatively small amount of time to actually play that I'd rather be blowing stuff up than making ISK.
This situation has the beneficial effect of making me look like a much better PvP-er than I really am. In reality, I'm average at best. I'm just really careful about maintaining mobility and exercising good target selection. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
453
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
What is this isk efficiency you speak of????
For me, when evaluating a pilot I like to see around an 80% win rate. That's my 'good pilot' sweet spot. Does well, but isn't afraid to get over his head and see just what that dual plated thorax can do. If I see a pilot w/ 95% or better I think risk averse cream puff, big fleet F1 monkey or some other not good term. I like guys not afraid to lose.
Corp kb - You have to look at that from a distance. Where, how often, how active, what they fly, what they take on all of it. If you evaluate a corps pvp mojo by looking at only their isk efficiency then you're going to miss a lot AND get fooled a lot.
Marmites are a great example. They have incredible isk efficiency. They don't have a lot of things I look for. They have their niche, it just doesn't line up with what I'm currently doing in eve. No offense dudes - my kb has a lot of amarr and jita undock kills for the same reasons yours does. That's just not where I'm at right now in eve.
Isk and a new ship are easy to come by. Good times and real enjoyment.... not so much. Listening to the new guy spin on adrenaline for 30 min after losing a bomber - priceless (and only so, becuase you can recall when you were that guy)
To the OP. You sir have won eve - I grant you immunity from judgement and infinite fun... go forth and enjoy!
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Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
People seem to forget that it is a game. The point is to have fun. If I wanted to spend that many hours/week at night and on weekends grinding out something for more money, I would take a second job.
I feel bad for people who pay attention to 'isk efficiency'. It is a game, not your job. |
Leto Thule
Fleet-Jump Surely You're Joking
1307
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote: "OMG WE HOTDROPPED!!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!! FC <3 <3 <3" I almost feel bad for those people.
Why?
Doing something like that for the first time is awesome.
Edit: In B4 Serenity makes a "Leto's mom" reference. Killboard
https://zkillboard.com/character/90841161/
Ripard Teg sucks. |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
454
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
You didn't get the whole story. They hot dropped on Mammy Thule due to an FC error. None of them came out of the experience the same. It wasn't that they were masacred, it's HOW they met their end.
For most it's a bell that will never be un wrung. |
Iain Cariaba
304
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Congratulations, you won EvE.
Seriously, you once again realized that this is a game, and therefore supposed to be fun. Personally, this moment came for me when I realized I was paying CCP every month to work a second job. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Renegade Heart
Smack My Ship Up
169
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eve is a game. A game should be fun. Worrying about stuff like isk efficiency is fun for some people. Not me! |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
328
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:Reminds me of a talk I had with an alliance recruiter yesterday. Told me we'd need to polish up our stats if we were to join them. He literally admitted he would get flak for losing expensive stuff. These guys don't hold sov, don't hold space assets and have nothing to lose. They just (hot)drop people. So I asked what practical purpose it would serve to improve our KB. Turns out there's no such thing, it's just about prestige and being able to link other people a webpage that says 98% effiency. I'm to pragmatic to care.
They don't deserve you. I'd rather have swinging dicks in space that were fully committed to making a kill any day than to fly with a bunch of people who were worried about losing a ship.
We fight guys like that all the time. They run. We don't.
We win.
T-
P.S. as both a fleet member as a fleet coordinator running is frustrating. As a fleet commander, If people in your fleet are running away you don't know what you *really* have to fight with and as a fleet member, a doubting FC who is non comittal and playing the "warp-here, warp-there" game ad nauseum soon goes from "manoeuvring" to wasting your time.
T- |
Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2014.09.11 17:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Inxentas Ultramar wrote:Reminds me of a talk I had with an alliance recruiter yesterday. Told me we'd need to polish up our stats if we were to join them. He literally admitted he would get flak for losing expensive stuff. These guys don't hold sov, don't hold space assets and have nothing to lose. They just (hot)drop people. So I asked what practical purpose it would serve to improve our KB. Turns out there's no such thing, it's just about prestige and being able to link other people a webpage that says 98% effiency. I'm to pragmatic to care. They don't deserve you. I'd rather have swinging dicks in space that were fully committed to making a kill any day than to fly with a bunch of people who were worried about losing a ship. We fight guys like that all the time. They run. We don't. We win. T- P.S. as both a fleet member as a fleet coordinator running is frustrating. As a fleet commander, If people in your fleet are running away you don't know what you *really* have to fight with and as a fleet member, a doubting FC who is non comittal and playing the "warp-here, warp-there" game ad nauseum soon goes from "manoeuvring" to wasting your time. INIT were like that. Sister Bliss was an epic FC when it came to moving around the field but he would never take a fight he couldn't win. It was so frustrating. T-
There are no 'swinging dicks in space'. This is a video game, not anything real where egos matter. Get rid of the elitist attitude and you might have a better time.
Also, if I read your killboard correctly, I am not sure how seriously to take you. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
328
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 17:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Petre en Thielles wrote:
That is completely different.
You sound like you fight to have fun. Not to arbitrarily keep numbers higher. Someone who fights to win is great. Someone who fights for KB stats is the guy who goes to shoot miners over and over for a month to bump up their killboards.
There are also no 'swinging dicks in space'. This is a video game, not anything real where egos matter. Get rid of the elitist attitude and you might have a better time.
I'm making the paradigm shift but evidently I'm not all the way there yet. ;)
T- |
Tengu Grib
Happy Fun times
392
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Posted - 2014.09.11 18:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
I like to focus more on 'fun'. That being said, I'm not as rich as a lot of people, so I do try to be at least a little careful. I have been known to get myself into stupid situations that I should be in, and die because of it. (This actually happened just yesterday) We had a good time, and that to me is more important, but we did lose some less than cheap ships, which kinda sucked. Already replaced em, but I'd rather not do it too often. As I get slowly more space rich comfortable though, my definition of 'unnecessary losses' is increasing in ISK value.
At the end of the day, Fun is most important. Isk efficiency can certainly help with producing more Fun in the future, so it isn't a bad thing. I just don't think you should sacrifice fun in the name of Isk efficiency. Tengu Grib> I read that as "Suddenly Noobships" and it made me want to hot drop someone with noobships. Buhhdust Princess> You have set us a challenge..We will try and do it!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEeBnYi5bG0&feature=youtu.be |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
766
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Petre en Thielles wrote: There are no 'swinging dicks in space'. This is a video game, not anything real where egos matter. Get rid of the elitist attitude and you might have a better time.
Also, if I read your killboard correctly, I am not sure how seriously to take you.
Do me a favor, and define "anything real".
Be sure to tell that first part to any sports team (or fan thereof), and let me know how it goes for you. They toss a ball, and we toss pixelated space bullets; that doesn't mean that the impacts on the human psyche, and therefore the human ego, are much (if any) different. The fact that their game happens to have "real" money involved (I'll spare you the Monopoly money/fiat currency rant), doesn't change how a competitive individual will view the potential outcomes. |
Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Petre en Thielles wrote: There are no 'swinging dicks in space'. This is a video game, not anything real where egos matter. Get rid of the elitist attitude and you might have a better time.
Also, if I read your killboard correctly, I am not sure how seriously to take you.
Do me a favor, and define "anything real". Be sure to tell that first part to any sports team (or fan thereof), and let me know how it goes for you. They toss a ball, and we toss pixelated space bullets; that doesn't mean that the impacts on the human psyche, and therefore the human ego, are much (if any) different. The fact that their game happens to have "real" money involved (I'll spare you the Monopoly money/fiat currency rant), doesn't change how a competitive individual will view the potential outcomes.
We don't "toss" anything. We press buttons on a computer. There are no consequences for failure. A lost battle does not involve any real life dollars.
If losing a fight in a video game 'impacts your psyche', then you have bigger problems. Look - I am competitive. I like winning, but if a person's ego is so big that it impacts their 'psyche' when they lose a video game, they need to spend less time online and more time working on personal maturity. |
Lady Spank
The Intaki Ladies Deep Space Astrogation Auxiliary
3630
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Good on you OP. I don't care much for ISK efficiency, in that I will engage against odds. I don't go out of my way to fly pimped or even max efficiency ships. My goal is to fly what I want and see what happens.
If I wanted even remote efficiency I wouldn't fly solo the majority of the time.
Eve is much more fun if you just do what you want. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
769
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 18:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Petre en Thielles wrote: We don't "toss" anything. We press buttons on a computer. There are no consequences for failure. A lost battle does not involve any real life dollars.
If losing a fight in a video game 'impacts your psyche', then you have bigger problems. Look - I am competitive. I like winning, but if a person's ego is so big that it impacts their 'psyche' when they lose a video game, they need to spend less time online and more time working on personal maturity.
If you don't lose anything, then your time is clearly worth nothing to you. Whether you bought a PLEX to buy ships, buy the materials to build ships, or you farmed the materials yourself, there was cost involved. Therein lies the problem with most people who berate those who take games "too seriously". They ignore the fact that just because you enjoy doing something, doesn't mean that there isn't an expense involved. I love my job. That doesn't mean that I do it for nothing.
If pushing buttons on a computer never incurred "real" loss, there wouldn't have been even a conversation about piracy. Everything has some form of value attributed to it, regardless of whether it's dollars, ISK, or the one currency that you can never really earn more of: time. The only difference is that the first one is "real" because people believe it has value that transcends the fact that it makes a halfassed (and foul smelling) fire. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
459
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 10:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
EGO's play huge in this game. Many epic campaigns have resulted from ego.
Happenstance can generate epic fights (unpaid sov bills, tackled supers in LS and so on), but the epic campains.... these are the things of hurt feelings and dominating wills. BOB/GOON shinanigans was a lot of EGO that provided extra epic stuff to do. The way that fizzled out was disappointing, but it was a good run while it lasted.
Do I personally get all bent out of shape?? Heck no. Would this game be totally boring w/out folks getting all bent out of shape??? Heck yeah.
Even little ego things add depth to the game. Saying the right thing in local to tweek your opponent is sometimes the critical element that paints your kb red/green for the night. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
319
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 06:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
I've said for a very long time now that killboard efficiency means virtually nothing and means the most at an alliance level and cascades rapidly downward from there to complete irrelevancy at a personal efficiency level. Only solo kills and losses avoid this issue. I'll give you an example of what I mean.
Say you have a killmail for a ship that costs 100 million with 100 involved parties. These pilots represent 4 alliances and 20 corps.
At the alliance level that 100 million ISK ship has contributed 400 million as each alliance claims 100% of the value, already a 400% increase.
Corp level that same kill has contributed 2 billion divided by the 20 corps, 2000% increase.
Personal efficiency it is boosted to 10 billion claimed between 100 pilots, 10,000% increase in value.
Now improbably that solo ship manages to kill one of that fleet's ships also worth 100 million. The total efficiency for the fight is 50% but 3/4 alliances show 100%, as do 19/20 corps and 99/100 players and at no stage does any entity in that fight show less than 50%. Apply this to a large battle and you can see very quickly that this is hyper inflation writ large.
If you assumed that there was a massive fleet fight where every ship was worth the same X amount from both sides and that both sides trade ships in a 1:1 ratio then the first two losses on each side will be the only ones with 50% efficiency personally for that battle. The second deaths are already at 67% and it climbs after each kill. Chances are you have learned little about how to handle yourself in a fight like that.
In order for ISK efficiency to mean anything it needs to be zero sum thereby dividing all kill efficiency among those involved. I have ~98% efficiency historically and I'm merely competent. It would mean that "good" efficiency might be around 55 - 60% instead of 80%+ but at that stage it would be at least a weak reflection of your ability as a player. Many of the best players I've met have "poor" efficiency because they solo constantly and are often killed by large gangs. But they know what's up and are lethal if only slightly outnumbered despite the low efficiency.
When determining whether a pilot is good or not what I look for are either impressive or embarrassing kills or losses. Worry about how those happened. I've also seen many many pilots with 3k or more kills, each with 50 - 150 involved parties and fewer than 100 losses but they have zero total solo kills and have lost 45 ships to solo pilots. Chances are without an FC this player doesn't have the first clue about how to proceed in any given combat scenario. Killboard stats are not completely useless in determining the value of a pilot but efficiency is really the wrong place to look. Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification. |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 14:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:I prefer efficiency for myself, not out of prestige or bragging rights or anything like that, but because, even after playing on and off since 2006, I'm relatively space poor. Mind you, I know how to make ISK, and I do it relatively well, it's just that I have such a relatively small amount of time to actually play that I'd rather be blowing stuff up than making ISK.
This situation has the beneficial effect of making me look like a much better PvP-er than I really am. In reality, I'm average at best. I'm just really careful about maintaining mobility and exercising good target selection. I know what you mean, I have 85 kills and 1 loss over the past few months, and I am terrible at PvP.
Although in my case it's because I'm a huge poon, nothing to do with ISK.
edit - Actually 2 losses. Stupid station guns |
Liam Inkuras
Eve is Easy.
1270
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 16:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
I just like to hope in a ship and say #f*ckityolo I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
1328
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 21:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
I fly a lot of solo and couldn't care less about isk efficiency. This is partly because I don't understand at an individual level how this is a good reflection of my skill.
If I had decided to ***** on that Revenant kill would that have made me 10x 'better' somehow? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Lady Spank
The Intaki Ladies Deep Space Astrogation Auxiliary
3646
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 21:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I fly a lot of solo and couldn't care less about isk efficiency. This is partly because I don't understand at an individual level how this is a good reflection of my skill.
If I had decided to ***** on that Revenant kill would that have made me 10x 'better' somehow?
Nope :)
I especially love when you get pinned down by someone that could have a good chance of killing me solo but they hold back to let their gang ***** on my mail. Less points for you.
Play for challenge and fun, not killboard stats. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
45
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 14:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Petre en Thielles wrote: We don't "toss" anything. We press buttons on a computer. There are no consequences for failure. A lost battle does not involve any real life dollars.
If losing a fight in a video game 'impacts your psyche', then you have bigger problems. Look - I am competitive. I like winning, but if a person's ego is so big that it impacts their 'psyche' when they lose a video game, they need to spend less time online and more time working on personal maturity.
If you don't lose anything, then your time is clearly worth nothing to you. Whether you bought a PLEX to buy ships, buy the materials to build ships, or you farmed the materials yourself, there was cost involved. Therein lies the problem with most people who berate those who take games "too seriously". They ignore the fact that just because you enjoy doing something, doesn't mean that there isn't an expense involved. I love my job. That doesn't mean that I do it for nothing. If pushing buttons on a computer never incurred "real" loss, there wouldn't have been even a conversation about piracy. Everything has some form of value attributed to it, regardless of whether it's dollars, ISK, or the one currency that you can never really earn more of: time. The only difference is that the first one is "real" because people believe it has value that transcends the fact that it makes a halfassed (and foul smelling) fire.
There are only conversations about piracy because some people take video games way too seriously.
Dollars are real and ISK is not because dollars translate to buying things in the real world, not in a video game. EvE is a game, a hobby, it should not be a substitute for having a live outside of a computer. |
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
randomly named no tax corp v2
11
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Posted - 2014.09.16 14:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
There were probably some ceptor pilots that went to B-R5, whored on 50 titans. Now they have the best isk efficiency ever.
Meanwhile, someone who flies triage carriers, the key function in a fleet, will have dreadful stats.
Eve would be better without killboards at all. |
Luwc
Brodozers Inc.
224
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 15:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
it depends.
the more of a neckbeard and the bigger of a fedora you have. (might be connected to weight gain) the more you care.
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
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