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Paranoid Loyd
1838
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Posted - 2014.09.13 19:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
That's nice and all but there is no banana, so I still do not have a proper frame of reference. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
827
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Posted - 2014.09.13 20:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: That's nice and all but there is no banana, so I still do not have a proper frame of reference.
Here's your banana & a human to continue the reference: Circle of health A thanks to all readers & supporters for making Aurora News the success it is today!-á -áRevenant Carrier destroyed as promotional stunt by Eve-Bet! Now with Revenant kill list included! |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
12216
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Posted - 2014.09.13 21:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, it's important to remember the scale of things here.
Guns in EVE are big as houses. Literally.
It's just that some of the ships we fit them on are big as villages GÇö even large house doesn't look that big in comparison.
But if we can village sized ships, why not mount them with village sized guns?
Why does the warp engine and hull take up so much space? Why not maximize the engineering architecture for offensive capabilities in the ship instead of wasting so much volume on essentially decorative elements?
I agree with OP. The guns are *relatively* too small in size compared to the rest of the ship. Some ships should literally be floating cannons. It's not like crew needs anything but injectable food and regular lashings in order to do their job..
lol rolling on floor.. i would probably be laughing though.. not crying --Pepper the Penguin ~ And when the seasons change, will you stand by me? ~ |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1251
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Posted - 2014.09.13 21:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:My sense of this is that the OP comes to us having only previously played F2P Korean MMOs. Especially the ones, all of them really, where you can barely see the avatar beneath the massive sword or gun he/she's wielding. The only thing more oversized than the weapons in those games are the massive, and I mean MASSIVE boobs on the scantily clad fighters. In any case, to my eyes many of the weapons we have in EVE are actually too big for the ships they are on. Mr Epeen So essentially what you're saying is that all... weapons everywhere look disproportionally large... to you.
;o [witty image] - Stream |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
417
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Posted - 2014.09.13 23:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:Jandice Ymladris wrote: On a serious note, Eve frigates are the size of big airplanes. Putting 2 meter long cannons on it that operate along with shielding, lifesupport & a variety of other systems is pretty impressive. While 2 meter long cannons sound big, compared to a boeing sized aircraft they're not (and still deliver a good punch)
not big at all, for eg. a g.e. gau-8/a avenger is way bigger than 2 meters (over 6 meters the whole system, 2.30 mt just the barrels) and fit on a smallish plane like the a10 warthog. ok, the a10 warthog is a gau 8a avenger with wings and oversized engines stuck on, tho is still a plane...
That is a different design principle. You MAKE the plane around the gun not the other way around. AKA it's a flying gun. |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
174
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Posted - 2014.09.13 23:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
I have noticed that Frigate guns are larger in proportion to the size of the ship than the guns of larger vessels. Attack Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts also have proportionately large guns (As do stealth bombers, but I'm not sure they count). Battleships have proportionately small guns. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3770
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Posted - 2014.09.14 14:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Here's something pretty close to a 425mm Railgun in general size - a 20m long barrel. And this guy here is pretty close in caliber to a 150mm railgun. The latter's got a 7.6m long barrel and fired a ~50 pound shell; you can imagine that'd look fairly large on a Harpy, which the game claims is ~100m long. The latter, on the other hand, fired a shell with a mass of 860-1200kg through a 20m barrel (only three times longer!) but the Megathron and the Rokh are just over a kilometer long, so such a gun looks tiny by comparison.
However, with a muzzle velocity of 898m/s, the 6" gun would have had a muzzle energy of about 40.3 megajoules, whereas the 16" gun, with a muzzle velocity of 762m/s and a shell mass of 1225kg, had a muzzle energy of 711.3 megajoules - nearly 18 times larger than a gun only a third of its size. You can't just make the gun arbitrarily large, though. Naval guns tend to fall within a given length to diameter - 38:1 to 50:1 according to wikipedia - to maximize projectile velocity. Make your barrel too long and you lose more and more energy to friction, both with the air and between the bullet and barrel.
Incidentally, projectile weapons in EVE ignore this - the length to diameter ratio is 10:1 to 11:1 for artillery, and 15:1 to 24:1 for autocannons. Perhaps not having to contend with air friction, combined with exotic futuristic barrel linings to minimize or eliminate that source of friction, allows for a smaller barrel. You still don't want to make your barrel arbitrarily long though, because you get diminishing returns (the pressure drops behind the round as it moves down the barrel), and a longer barrel is more difficult to keep on target. This may explain why projectile weapons in-game seem to have length to diameter ratios of about 10:1-11:1 (for artillery) and 15:1 to 24:1 for autocannons.
Or it's just that 3m, 7m and 14m are standard lengths across all weapon classes for small, medium and large guns. Ah well.
Anyway, back to the original point, the damage imparted by a weapon (as compared by muzzle energy since that's a convenient way to do it) has several factors, and increasing one often increases one or more other, leading to an exponential increase in power. For example, if those 150mm and 425mm railguns shoot cylindrical rounds and (as one would reasonably assume) all dimensions increase proportionally, then we get a 4.7x in shell mass and thus muzzle energy out of the 2.83x increase in caliber. Interestingly, due to the physics involved in railguns, if I'm interpreting them right (and given that I only landed in iceland a couple hours ago, am decidedly sleep deprived, and am trying to do the calculus in my head, it's quite possible I'm not...) the 425mm barrel would have to be a little over eight times as long as the 150mm barrel to achieve the same muzzle velocity. But even so, that would only be 24 meters long, and so they would still look freakin' tiny on a battleship.
I'm gonna stop now though, because I'm about half a step from comparing the tracking of two weapons so as to estimate the moment of inertia, and from that the mas and thus in turn the length of the barrel.
Clementina wrote:I have noticed that Frigate guns are larger in proportion to the size of the ship than the guns of larger vessels. Attack Battlecruisers and Dreadnaughts also have proportionately large guns (As do stealth bombers, but I'm not sure they count). Battleships have proportionately small guns.
Attack Battlecruisers are around 60% the size of battleships but use battleship guns, so yes, they have proportionally larger guns. Likewise, dreads are in the 3200-3800m range with 131m long turrets, so the turrets are ~3.5-4% of the length of the ship, so a fair bit larger than the ~1.4% of battleship guns. And well yeah, stealth bombers are, uh...yeah. They're kind of a gimme. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Hal Morsh
Exodus Mining Corp
141
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Posted - 2014.09.14 14:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Tippia wrote:Yes, it's important to remember the scale of things here.
Guns in EVE are big as houses. Literally.
It's just that some of the ships we fit them on are big as villages GÇö even large house doesn't look that big in comparison. But if we can village sized ships, why not mount them with village sized guns? Why does the warp engine and hull take up so much space? Why not maximize the engineering architecture for offensive capabilities in the ship instead of wasting so much volume on essentially decorative elements? I agree with OP. The guns are *relatively* too small in size compared to the rest of the ship. Some ships should literally be floating cannons. It's not like crew needs anything but injectable food and regular lashings in order to do their job..
So the Naga should be converted into a railgun superweapon "discuss".
Also that compairison video someone posted.. I was looking at the manticore, and for some reason it reminded me of the movie "battleship"
http://iheartflix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/battleship_movie_alien_ship.png Doesn't look like a manticore I know, but it does look.... eveish
I enjoy a good session of mining. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
12542
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Posted - 2014.09.14 14:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
mynnna wrote:I'm gonna stop now though, because I'm about half a step from comparing the tracking of two weapons so as to estimate the moment of inertia, and from that the mas and thus in turn the length of the barrel.
I really enjoyed this post. Your time was totally well spent, in my opinion. lol rolling on floor.. i would probably be laughing though.. not crying --Pepper the Penguin ~ And when the seasons change, will you stand by me? ~ |
Mizhir
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
68604
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Posted - 2014.09.14 21:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mynnna! Your face
Didn't know that CSM life was so hard. One Man Crew - Collective solo pvp |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5850
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Posted - 2014.09.15 00:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Mutliple people have said the guns look small because the ships are big... but if the ships are big shouldn't we need big guns to hurt them?
Battleships seem to die to proportionally less firepower than smaller classes. It' s not the size of the gun that counts, but rather how much penetration you get. If you like EVE Online and War Thunder content stop by my YouTube channel.-á
Ranger 1 Presents https://www.youtube.com/user/Ranger1Presents |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1272
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Posted - 2014.09.15 01:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Crumplecorn wrote:Mutliple people have said the guns look small because the ships are big... but if the ships are big shouldn't we need big guns to hurt them?
Battleships seem to die to proportionally less firepower than smaller classes. It' s not the size of the gun that counts, but rather how much penetration you get. It's funny because it's like penises! [witty image] - Stream |
stoicfaux
5306
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Posted - 2014.09.15 03:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Well, I would suppose Railguns and Blasters do not need to be giant to be effective, they use kinetic force to do damage. Yes and no. EVE railguns don't appear to be kinetic kill weapons (i.e. the slamming of fast moving hunks of metal into targets) due to having ammo types, and due to how ships bounce off of each other and large objects (meaning EVE ships, stations, asteroids, etc. appear to be immune to plain old kinetic damage.)
So EVE railguns do "kinetic" damage via some other, mysterious, exotic mechanism.[1]
Quote: On the note of Railguns, The US NAVY apparently has a real working rail gun in testing right now. Subs laugh at railguns.
[1] I cast magic missile at the darkness.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
357
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Posted - 2014.09.15 04:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ask art. When they redid turret animations and turret effects, they had to do some magic stuffs to their scaling so they would actually look fitting on all the ships they could be fit on (Stealth bombers and Siege Launchers, for instants). |
Amarant'h
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
27
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Posted - 2014.09.15 06:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Because.. Battleship is a large vessel. Actually I dont care. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
740
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Posted - 2014.09.15 07:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
http://www.ageofsail.net/images/126-2665_img_jpg.jpg
I'd say this was the inspiration for our ships. That being the case, it's all the inner aspects of the gun, the things that you don't see that make the gun seem small. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3773
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Posted - 2014.09.15 10:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Well, I would suppose Railguns and Blasters do not need to be giant to be effective, they use kinetic force to do damage. Yes and no. EVE railguns don't appear to be kinetic kill weapons (i.e. the slamming of fast moving hunks of metal into targets) due to having ammo types, and due to how ships bounce off of each other and large objects (meaning EVE ships, stations, asteroids, etc. appear to be immune to plain old kinetic damage.) So EVE railguns do "kinetic" damage via some other, mysterious, exotic mechanism.[1] Quote: On the note of Railguns, The US NAVY apparently has a real working rail gun in testing right now. Subs laugh at railguns. [1] I cast magic missile at the darkness.
Typical railgun-like projectile as a tip to a more exotic hollow round such as a canister of antimatter. To be fair though antimatter is the only particularly exotic one, though lead and iron are both odd choices because of their relative softness, and certain properties of Iridium would make it hard to use as a shell. Most of them are, however , pyrophoric to one degree or another, and so could ignite if they penetrated the hull (until the air blew out, I suppose.) Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
932
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Posted - 2014.09.15 11:42:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lead has the effective density going for it and would pancake on impact, generating internal spalling which would be highly effective.
Iron is ferromagnetic, so obviously it would be highly nice in an electromagnetic weapon (call it baby Caldari proofing round?) |
stoicfaux
5312
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Posted - 2014.09.15 16:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Why use anything other than antimatter? Why/how does ammo affect railgun range? If ships bounce off each other, why don't railgun rounds bounce off?
Eve railguns and RL railguns do not use the same physics to do damage (or use the same physics to reach their target.)
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Jenni LaCroix
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
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Posted - 2014.09.15 19:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Nano Spartan wrote:I see a frigate and zoom in and see oh there's the guns, on a battleship they look like peashooters. Does anyone else think so? If so wonder why that is when you consider they really are massive?
This isn't WW2, we're in the future. Shortly before the eve universe gets eradicated by the xenos forces and then you have the mighty Space Marines come in to conquer in the name of the emperor and faithful to the adeptus astarte. |
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
737
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Posted - 2014.09.15 19:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
It's been confirmed time and again - it's not the size, it how you use it, err them. CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
737
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Posted - 2014.09.15 20:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
mynnna wrote: Make your barrel too long and you lose more and more energy to friction, both with the air and between the bullet and barrel.
Thanks for the turret comparisons!
Wonder if a small pre-charge, loaded and ignited sub-seconds before the main charge, would make a difference by evacuating the barrel before the projectile starts moving. Obviously a big challenge to keep the main charge from firing prematurely.
OP - Don't know if this has been linked yet: Ships to RL Objects Comparison 14 minutes, well worth the time.
CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
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NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
932
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Posted - 2014.09.15 20:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:mynnna wrote: Make your barrel too long and you lose more and more energy to friction, both with the air and between the bullet and barrel.
Thanks for the turret comparisons! Wonder if a small pre-charge, loaded and ignited sub-seconds before the main charge, would make a difference by evacuating the barrel before the projectile starts moving. Obviously a big challenge to keep the main charge from firing prematurely. OP - Don't know if this has been linked yet: Ships to RL Objects Comparison 14 minutes, well worth the time. The turret empties into space Its already evacuated
Here on Earth there were experiments to the effect of using LASERs to evacuate a chamber prior to firing along with plasma detonation of the propellants. Both fell through when leadership changed and they were started under the last guy Plausible for super secret sneaky divisions to have finished the tech, frankly useless as their tiny numbers wouldnt make it useful
stoicfaux wrote:Why use anything other than antimatter? Why/how does ammo affect railgun range? If ships bounce off each other, why don't railgun rounds bounce off?
Eve railguns and RL railguns do not use the same physics to do damage (or use the same physics to reach their target.)
Railgun rounds are exceedingly fast, this allows them to bypass the warped space that so governs the area around ships Okay so its not so much the velocity as their momentum is able to exceed the spatial bend that looks os much like a hil laround the ships |
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
278
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Posted - 2014.09.15 21:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Why use anything other than antimatter? Why/how does ammo affect railgun range? If ships bounce off each other, why don't railgun rounds bounce off?
Eve railguns and RL railguns do not use the same physics to do damage (or use the same physics to reach their target.)
Most likely because stuff like antimatter is hard to contain and the projectile just loses containment and blows up if it travels too long. |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
932
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Posted - 2014.09.16 02:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Blerg no AM is merely an oppisitely charged state of matter, no different than building a lego house out of all blue instead of red It has no more issues with cohesion than normal matter, and I am quite sure our fights arent going on until proton failure (though with TIDI at times, the computers might) And since we are using an electromagnetic system for acceleration in a vacuum, oh wait I just described your average state for terrestrial AM, in space its just another spot on the list, vastly dwarfed by normal matter for an unknown reason that leaves scientists morbidly worried of something not being right
Oh and with fullerenes, AM is easy to contain, it can also be energetically liberated by the destruction of the fullerene matrix |
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
279
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Posted - 2014.09.17 12:36:00 -
[56] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Blerg no AM is merely an oppisitely charged state of matter, no different than building a lego house out of all blue instead of red It has no more issues with cohesion than normal matter, and I am quite sure our fights arent going on until proton failure (though with TIDI at times, the computers might) And since we are using an electromagnetic system for acceleration in a vacuum, oh wait I just described your average state for terrestrial AM, in space its just another spot on the list, vastly dwarfed by normal matter for an unknown reason that leaves scientists morbidly worried of something not being right
Oh and with fullerenes, AM is easy to contain, it can also be energetically liberated by the destruction of the fullerene matrix
You forget space is not really empty and even a few particles hitting the projectile on its way will sooner or later degrade the containment. Then antimatter just starts spewing out, reacting with the normal matter floating around in space until your death projectile turned into a limp ****.
Add to that the higher then normal matter density New Eden is supposed to have (all those nebulae add a lot of dust everywhere, it seems) and no wonder the projectiles can't go far. This also explains the ludicrously short range of blasters, since blasters don't even send out projectiles which contain a warhead, instead they transform everything into highly volatile plasma and just send short bursts of it to the target. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5459
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Posted - 2014.09.17 20:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
With careful rigging I managed to mount a Heavy Missile Launcher on a Thrasher and damn it looks funny.
(With a web, TP and precision missile it's a murderous little brawler but I have not tried HAM on it yet)
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
130
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Posted - 2014.09.17 20:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP just isnt very good at illustrating the scale of the ships in game. Captain's Quarters doesnt help either when every ship looks the same size in the hangar.
Ive heard that a frigate is the size of a passenger airliner. So they say. |
Arronicus
Caldari Navy Reconnaissance
1135
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Posted - 2014.09.18 05:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
If you want big guns, you may want to look into a dreadnaught. They're pretty thick and girthy. My moros is hung like a surinam toad. |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10056
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Posted - 2014.09.18 07:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
It's not about the "size" ... ... it's about the "thrust" and "recoil" ........ *cough*
Meta Portrait: umm, looks like youre 'busy', young love, sexual and sensual, soft&warm, OMG naked???, are you kissin or blo..., so much feels, most sexually suggestive pic I've seen. I make it feel real... (: :) |
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