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Aesynil
The Unit... Valhalla Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.09.13 18:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
For those of you using them, how beneficial are S&I POS's currently? I used to operate a large caldari tower of labs to run my research and invention, but now it seems that all of that can be done in station, and my understanding is that you still have to pay the system cost index while manufacturing and researching at a POS (Am I incorrect in this?)
With that said, what benefits are there to a POS, if you don't -really- care that much about it going out faster? I see factories give you a few percentage materials saving, at the cost of having to have the BPO's AT the POS, and a good reduction in time taken at cost of having your BPO in a lab for a month or more. Are people still using POS's for this purpose? Any advice would be wonderful, thanks! |
John Philip Sousa
Secondary Weapons
1
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Posted - 2014.09.14 00:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
One thing you haven't touched on is that stations will charge you 10% tax and a POS will not. How much the 2% ME savings and 10% tax savings matter to your operation will depend on what you are making and how large the margins are. Similarly, the rate of production can matter a lot for some items, but very little on others, in terms of isk/hr. Overall, I think most people who are at least somewhat serious about production are using POSs. |
Aesynil
The Unit... Valhalla Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.09.14 00:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
John Philip Sousa wrote:One thing you haven't touched on is that stations will charge you 10% tax and a POS will not. How much the 2% ME savings and 10% tax savings matter to your operation will depend on what you are making and how large the margins are. Similarly, the rate of production can matter a lot for some items, but very little on others, in terms of isk/hr. Overall, I think most people who are at least somewhat serious about production are using POSs.
I keep forgetting the tax. I suppose I would have to math it up to see what the break even point is between fuel costs and tax/me savings, and add some consideration for the hassle of moving materials and BPcs to the pos. Is there anything that absolutely requires a POS to do well? |
John Philip Sousa
Secondary Weapons
1
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Posted - 2014.09.14 01:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aesynil wrote:I keep forgetting the tax. I suppose I would have to math it up to see what the break even point is between fuel costs and tax/me savings, and add some consideration for the hassle of moving materials and BPcs to the pos. Is there anything that absolutely requires a POS to do well?
I don't make ships, but from what I can tell they are typically so low margin that every bit of efficiency counts. |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
65
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Posted - 2014.09.14 04:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
John Philip Sousa wrote:One thing you haven't touched on is that stations will charge you 10% tax and a POS will not. How much the 2% ME savings and 10% tax savings matter to your operation will depend on what you are making and how large the margins are. Similarly, the rate of production can matter a lot for some items, but very little on others, in terms of isk/hr. Overall, I think most people who are at least somewhat serious about production are using POSs.
Would anyone care to quantity the per-month fuel costs of a POS large enough to build 11 large hulls simultaneously? I'm in a large hub and I see no indication of a competitor on a sustained basis competing effectively with me, let alone beating me with the supposed cost savings of feeding and supplying the multiple freighter loads per day of materials to take on a so-called "somewhat serious" producer. If that were true, if nothing else I'd see teams on a par with mine in other highsec systems, since lately highsec-appropriate teams have been auctioning for an absolute song recently. I see arrays of teams in lowsec, but they appear to be geared toward exporting. I have the best battleship team, the best battlecruiser team, and the best few other teams, and if I'm being scaled out of business I'll be damned if I can see it in my numbers.
If a highsec manufacturing/selling POS is in fact effective, I'd like someone to lay out the specifics.
Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
John Philip Sousa
Secondary Weapons
1
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Posted - 2014.09.14 06:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:John Philip Sousa wrote:One thing you haven't touched on is that stations will charge you 10% tax and a POS will not. How much the 2% ME savings and 10% tax savings matter to your operation will depend on what you are making and how large the margins are. Similarly, the rate of production can matter a lot for some items, but very little on others, in terms of isk/hr. Overall, I think most people who are at least somewhat serious about production are using POSs. Would anyone care to quantity the per-month fuel costs of a POS large enough to build 11 large hulls simultaneously? I'm in a large hub and I see no indication of a competitor on a sustained basis competing effectively with me, let alone beating me with the supposed cost savings of feeding and supplying the multiple freighter loads per day of materials to take on a so-called "somewhat serious" producer. If that were true, if nothing else I'd see teams on a par with mine in other highsec systems, since lately highsec-appropriate teams have been auctioning for an absolute song recently. I see arrays of teams in lowsec, but they appear to be geared toward exporting. I have the best battleship team, the best battlecruiser team, and the best few other teams, and if I'm being scaled out of business I'll be damned if I can see it in my numbers. If a highsec manufacturing/selling POS is in fact effective, I'd like someone to lay out the specifics.
Well first off, not everyone is going to make large ships. Secondly, what do you mean by "POS large enough"? 1 assembly array can produce an infinite number of ships simultaneously, but I'm sure you already know that so I don't know what you mean. Also, without knowing all your specifics, wouldn't you make even more profit than you are currently by producing in a POS? For example, using this, you could make 800k isk/hr per line making a raven (perfect BPO) in Osmeden using a relevant team producing in a station, and 3M isk/hr per line producing in a POS. Assuming you could sell them all, that's 33M isk/hr vs. 8.8M isk/hr, or nearly 4 times the profit. It would cost you ~170k isk/hr to run a small POS, ~340 for a medium, or ~680 for a large, all of which are peanuts compared to the additional 24M isk/hr you'll get in profit. This is of course a completely hypothetical situation, but a specific one none the less. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
185
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Posted - 2014.09.14 08:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
As far as I can see post-Crius unless you are running your industrial operation like a second job, presuming you are not unemployed in RL, with spreadsheets coming out of your **** I'm not sure it's worth running a high sec research POS. As for a high sec manufacturing POS dependent on which arrays you anchor and what teams you successfully bid for you are likely to attract some seriously bad attention. I personally wouldn't want that kind of **** on my doorstep. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1537
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Posted - 2014.09.14 08:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:
If a highsec manufacturing/selling POS is in fact effective, I'd like someone to lay out the specifics.
Multiple users. Not a single user. Of course, with current POS permissions/systems that requires both an extraordinary level of trust, and insane micromanagement since POS's don't use a Unified inventory in the main tower (Hint CCP, this is one spot that could use things, just remove all the inside shield modules in space, and make them modules that fit to slots in the tower., then you can just make the POS have a single inventory with multiple divisions including a personal division if PHA/s are installed & none of this crazy micromanagement in & out of containers).
If the level of crazy involved in making it work remains after the POS revamp coming up, we will see, but multiple users is the answer to make a POS worth it. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1448
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Posted - 2014.09.14 09:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aesynil wrote: Is there anything that absolutely requires a POS to do well?
T3. Because you can't make them in a station.
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Kiddoomer
ScrewWork Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.09.14 14:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I recently bought and anchored a small caldari tower in a quiet high-space (with no station) system. I use the POS to compress the ores I mine (one account with mackinaw/skiff) , and I manufacture T2 building components (*faction* shield emitter for example). And to me it's quite profitable, plus the fact I frikkin love having my own little blue bubble |
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Banko Mato
Republic University Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2014.09.14 22:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote: If a highsec manufacturing/selling POS is in fact effective, I'd like someone to lay out the specifics.
=> Scale
If you crunch a few 100b worth of materials through each of your POSs, then the 2% in materials savings does indeed save a lot, and the fuel costs are mere peanuts in the overall calculations. Ofc this requires either several users as pointed out above or simply an army of alts.
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Aesynil
The Unit... Valhalla Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.09.14 23:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Banko Mato wrote:SJ Astralana wrote: If a highsec manufacturing/selling POS is in fact effective, I'd like someone to lay out the specifics.
=> Scale If you crunch a few 100b worth of materials through each of your POSs, then the 2% in materials savings does indeed save a lot, and the fuel costs are mere peanuts in the overall calculations. Ofc this requires either several users as pointed out above or simply an army of alts.
At the same time, saving that 2% introduces risk (war Decs) and logistical hurdles (moving mats and bps to the pos and taking finished products from it). In my experience, manufacturing from a POS is a pain, compared to just using the station. Did anything change with regard to that?
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Electrified Circuits
Lynx Inc Northern Associates.
19
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Posted - 2014.09.15 00:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
The advantage of the POS in my opinion above all else is to be able to manufacture in a system without a station thereby having the system cost index which is the major sink now goverened by yourself.
Of course the 2% ME bonus and time bonus are also really great as with rounding the 2% save is often much more than that. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4138
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Posted - 2014.09.15 07:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
I have a large POS. It costs over 400m per month in fuel.
It earns enough to be self-sustaining, even when I'm not using it fully. Currently it takes 2 jobs per month to pay the fuel bill.
If you cannot figure out how to make your tower pay for itself, in ISK or convenience, then I don't recommend using a POS. |
Banko Mato
Republic University Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2014.09.15 12:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aesynil wrote: At the same time, saving that 2% introduces risk (war Decs) and logistical hurdles (moving mats and bps to the pos and taking finished products from it). In my experience, manufacturing from a POS is a pain, compared to just using the station. Did anything change with regard to that?
What risk? XD
So far I got war decced no more than thrice on any of my corps used for manufacturing. And never did anybody go the boring road of attempting a siege on a max res large caldari POS (whose jobs/materials can be evaced long before anything serious happens). In the same time frame the savings in both materials and time (never ever forget the insane time bonus you get from arrays!) has yielded several hundred times the little bit of fuel required to operate those POSs. Depending on what you build and whether or not you do the hauling yourself there is virtually no difference between producing in station or at a POS from a logistical point of view. The only downside is that you cannot contract stuff to a POS... |
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