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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
460
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Posted - 2014.09.14 16:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
First what I'm looking at:
With hyperion there were a few changes effecting w-space.
It appears a balance point may have been crossed on the time-to-effort and risks-to-rewards vectors for some/many residents.
If a poor perception in such changes spreads, what manifests may become a rather sizable problem for the bulk of those who live in w-space.
In general, when people/groups feel threatened there are generally 2 paths that are followed:
1) Evacuation - mostly of smaller groups who won't feel they can operate any longer. 2) Clustering - smaller groups joining w-space alliances -- "strength in numbers"
The latter has seen a lot of bloat over the last couple years as may be seen by some fairly sizable organizations operating *AS* organizations in w-space now.
Evacuation over the short term shouldn't be a major problem . That should be readily addressable by players or by CCP tweaks to the space if the overall population shifts too much.
Clustering, long term, would be a huge issue and best if it's nipped in the bud early before it goes too far.
I don't think any w-space groups would like to see their own home-grown version of "the blue doughnut" of null SOV lands form up.
As such, the questions are these:
1) Are smaller w-space groups losing members to larger groups in noticeably higher numbers? 2) Are larger w-space alliances getting more applications for membership by existing w-space corporations?
I think these would be indicators to track beyond simple population statistics. If these numbers are going up then you may have bigger problems than just the ones being muttered about by some residents.
It may be a bit early for such to noticeable but, then again, it may not be. |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
181
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Posted - 2014.09.14 16:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your theory assumes that clustering wasn't happening prior to Hyperion, which is false. Sky Syndicate was at about 500 pilots before Rolled Out split off. Look at the size of HK, LZHX, Ixtab, NoHo, SSC. LZHX is the smallest of these at 247 members, and I would wager that none of them have had a major swelling of numbers since Hyperion. The "WH blue donut" existed before Hyperion was even thought of by CCP. Human nature says when I lose I try to get more friends, so I can win, or in many cases even just have enough to scare the other side out of fighting at all, next time. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
174
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Posted - 2014.09.14 16:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think you will find examples of both as independent of Hyperion they have long been part of the cycle. Winning is generally preferred to losing fights and simply bringing a bigger team is much easier than improving your existing teams skills. What this poll won't measure is the incoming, not yet part of the community organizations which become the groups who eventually join other groups only to have it all break apart into smaller groups.
If I were to try to measure the future impact of changes it would be to track fuel blocks contained within wspace by wormhole class. People thinking about moving out burn down their fuel while those looking forward to a long future stock up. |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
135
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Posted - 2014.09.15 08:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kynric wrote:If I were to try to measure the future impact of changes it would be to track fuel blocks contained within wspace by wormhole class. People thinking about moving out burn down their fuel while those looking forward to a long future stock up. CCP make this happen! *wants graph p0rn*
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Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
141
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Posted - 2014.09.15 15:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Blue donut. Interesting.
The way it works is this, Me against my brother, me and my brother against our cousins, all of us against everyone else.
hard knocks (for example) call that they've got a nulsec carrier tackled and need a quick assist. We go help.
Next day they roll into our hole and spank our fleet
Its the wormhole way.
I see no problem with the Wormhole version of the blue donut Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
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Aladar Dangerface
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
2
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Posted - 2014.09.15 18:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Blue donut. Interesting.
The way it works is this, Me against my brother, me and my brother against our cousins, all of us against everyone else.
hard knocks (for example) call that they've got a nulsec carrier tackled and need a quick assist. We go help.
Next day they roll into our hole and spank our fleet
Its the wormhole way.
I see no problem with the Wormhole version of the blue donut
This is the true state of wh politics as i understand it. Most corps/alliances do not have true blues, we may stop killing each other for a short period of time to kill someone else we like even less (especially nullbears) but once we are done we go back to killing each other
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CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
184
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Posted - 2014.09.15 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Blue donut may not be the best term, but I, and others, have touched on the WH mergers and acquisitions in other topics. My theory goes something like this:
1. Group A rolls into Group B. Group A has 20 dudes, and Group B only has 10. There is either no fight because Group B is too scared, or there is a fight and Group B gets crushed. 2. Group B says "screw this we need more people", so they go on a recruiting drive, but instead of getting total WH noobs who may also rob the corp blind they pull in people from another smaller corp, so that they can now field 25. 3. Group B now rolls into Group A, and returns the favor of crushing them due to numerical superiority, so now Group A goes on a recruiting drive, and pulls more pilots from existing WH corps. 4. This process repeats itself over and over, and also adds Groups C, D, E, and F to the mix all following the same steps. 5. Now instead of having 15 WH corps with 100 pilots each we have 5 with 300 each. Same 1500 pilots, but fewer occupied WHs. This means more empty chains for everyone.
Once again, I am not proposing that corps be limited, or limit themselves, on the number of pilots/players. I am just stating that when you try to "catch them all" then you are depriving yourself of someone to shoot at also. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Billy Hardcore
Jaded.
165
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Posted - 2014.09.15 18:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jaded. is actually "tossing the idea around" for finding another small wh corp to join in an alliance with. Why? Due the fact that 3 of the top ten largest corps in eve live in wh space and they all seem to be buddy buddy.
As a small group we will do what we have to do to protect ourselves, and ensure that we can have fun. Eve is a video game, and if your not having fun playing it then whats the point? #BillyFleet |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
461
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Posted - 2014.09.15 21:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Blue donut. Interesting.
The way it works is this, Me against my brother, me and my brother against our cousins, all of us against everyone else.
hard knocks (for example) call that they've got a nulsec carrier tackled and need a quick assist. We go help.
Next day they roll into our hole and spank our fleet
Its the wormhole way.
I see no problem with the Wormhole version of the blue donut
Bedouin logic. ;-)
Yes I recognize it and its implementation has been one of the draw points of w-space. Looking at that RL equivalent, they've been "losing ground" for the last 30 years and it's been dissolving faster of late, with less and less tolerance for "the old ways" by the nations in those regions.
CivilWars wrote:Your theory assumes that clustering wasn't happening prior to Hyperion, which is false. Sky Syndicate was at about 500 pilots before Rolled Out split off. Look at the size of HK, LZHX, Ixtab, NoHo, SSC. LZHX is the smallest of these at 247 members, and I would wager that none of them have had a major swelling of numbers since Hyperion. The "WH blue donut" existed before Hyperion was even thought of by CCP. Human nature says when I lose I try to get more friends, so I can win, or in many cases even just have enough to scare the other side out of fighting at all, next time.
I stated the clustering has been happening "a bit" but there's a distinct difference between a few larger groups with a lot of smaller groups and smaller groups folding into larger groups.
What Mithandra pointed out is "old ways". If that starts taking a hit for "empire building"... The causes of such is by necessity.
Yes there's been some 'bloat' but overall it's been a place where smaller groups could go and survive.. Even thrive. That is nothing like what I'm trying to find out about.
Are populations starting to shift faster?
I suppose you could say I'm looking at it a bit like another game I play called Plague Inc (a pandemic simulation game where you play a plague).
Once a plague hits a population threshold, it expands faster and faster with effect. To build up quickly, you add the equivalent of accelerants to the situation - 2 types, one being the ability to spread it across areas, the other being the ability to spread it within a population. Without such - it may "infect" to a given point but sits there, not really expanding albeit noticeable; it is not a major problem to the overall "health" of an area.
A key tactic of that game is not being noticed or only being seen as trivial until you've managed to take it beyond a point of no return. If spotted early enough, it will be stopped but only if spotted early enough.
Phrasing differently: Looking at the overall situation in w-space, the question comes up, do these changes cross a threshold point as an accelerant?
Are the 2 metrics I bring up accelerating a process to an "infectious" momentum point? |
MooMooDachshundCow
Incertae Sedis
48
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Posted - 2014.09.15 21:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mocam wrote: Bedouin logic. ;-)
Yes I recognize it and its implementation has been one of the draw points of w-space. Looking at that RL equivalent, they've been "losing ground" for the last 30 years and it's been dissolving faster of late, with less and less tolerance for "the old ways" by the nations in those regions.
Almost as incorrect as it is irrelevant. What are you saying, that we're some sort of nomadic tribes? That there's something wrong with the Bedouin? This statement is nebulous and not in a good C-320 kind of way. Moving on...
Mocam wrote: I suppose you could say I'm looking at it a bit like another game I play called Plague Inc (a pandemic simulation game where you play a plague).
Again, what was this about? Groups forming into larger and larger units? Flocculation as a natural response to outside threats?
If so, there are many different aspects that keep these groups from getting too large.
First is just resources - there is only so much mass/isk to be made/used. This limits the number of people per wh system naturally and encourages people to break up. Especially in the case of capital escalations, there is a limited supply there which while vast is finite.
Second is just simple politics. It can be difficult to get large groups on the same page. It's hard to force corps to merge into one big corp. It's hard to make alliances work when the game doesn't make integration easy (bookmarks plz). It's common for people to but heads and break off. It happens all the time, and is part of what makes the political side of this game interesting.
My point is that there are already checks and balances in WH space that keep the groups from getting too large. There are some very large groups with hundreds of members, but those require dedicated leadership to maintain. It's not just a simple "let's all live together". Stuff gets stolen. I've watched it happen.
So I think so far Hyperion encourages people to group up in wormholes, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna see a bunch of new NOHO's pop up all over the place because regardless of what your experience is playing Plague Inc or whatever the fact remains that getting people together in eve can be like herding cats. It's not impossible, and some people are very good at it, but it requires dedicated, hardworking leaders which can be hard to come by. |
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HerrBert
V0LTA Triumvirate.
525
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Posted - 2014.09.15 22:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzeEz7TyKg
I will just leave this here ...
If you have Questions regarding Natwo.... Yes it was / is the biggest Coalition in Wormholes...
SSC / VoC / LFarm / HK...
Bert 2012: "Ever woke up in a cheap motel with some naked ugly people around, your first instinct is to bail as soon as you are concious .. but 2 weeks later you want to get back to the motel."
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1451aq/100b_isk_epic_battle_in_wh_space_this_should_make/
Why was Natwo brought to live? Because some people banded together and tried to evict some PvPers and so the discussion about dont evict pvp was started... good times Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx
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Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
490
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Posted - 2014.09.16 00:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
NATWO still exists. Snipped signature for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
HerrBert
V0LTA Triumvirate.
526
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Posted - 2014.09.16 01:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hidden Fremen wrote:NATWO still exists.
You mean ... well lets not disclose stuff like that. Last time Natwo made alot of people VERY SCARED.
Also lovely Hidden I said was / is xD, as long as the players are still around, Natwo will always be alive.
Just remember Kids: "DONT EVICT PVP" Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
499
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Posted - 2014.09.16 06:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
theres is a big difference between "clustering" (which is in human nature) and "blue donut" (which doesnt exist in wspace) W-Space Realtor |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
176
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Posted - 2014.09.17 14:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Blue donut may not be the best term, but I, and others, have touched on the WH mergers and acquisitions in other topics. My theory goes something like this:
1. Group A rolls into Group B. Group A has 20 dudes, and Group B only has 10. There is either no fight because Group B is too scared, or there is a fight and Group B gets crushed. 2. Group B says "screw this we need more people", so they go on a recruiting drive, but instead of getting total WH noobs who may also rob the corp blind they pull in people from another smaller corp, so that they can now field 25. 3. Group B now rolls into Group A, and returns the favor of crushing them due to numerical superiority, so now Group A goes on a recruiting drive, and pulls more pilots from existing WH corps. 4. This process repeats itself over and over, and also adds Groups C, D, E, and F to the mix all following the same steps. 5. Now instead of having 15 WH corps with 100 pilots each we have 5 with 300 each. Same 1500 pilots, but fewer occupied WHs. This means more empty chains for everyone.
Once again, I am not proposing that corps be limited, or limit themselves, on the number of pilots/players. I am just stating that when you try to "catch them all" then you are depriving yourself of someone to shoot at also.
Nice one. And exactly the reason why some smaller corps avoid joining alliances and feel somewhat bad when they have more than 20 in fleet in w-space. : )
On the other hand I noticed that we have had several new members joining during the last couple of months who were part of larger w-space alliances that fell apart.
Actually nice guys but that makes me wonder why they joined the w-space blobs in the first place. : ) |
Billy Hardcore
Jaded.
167
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Posted - 2014.09.17 16:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Axloth Okiah wrote:theres is a big difference between "clustering" (which is in human nature) and "blue donut" (which doesnt exist in wspace)
Regardless they both have the same effect on the community as a whole, and is very much a thing in W-Space. #BillyFleet |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
500
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Posted - 2014.09.17 19:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Billy Hardcore wrote:Axloth Okiah wrote:theres is a big difference between "clustering" (which is in human nature) and "blue donut" (which doesnt exist in wspace) Regardless they both have the same effect on the community as a whole, and is very much a thing in W-Space. Yes, it's been a thing for at least 3 years... W-Space Realtor |
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