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Capital ship concept. True logistics.

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Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Ithildin on 03/08/2006 09:45:17 I've been reading quite a bit of Alastair Reynold's works lately, and while being very good reads they also contain some ideas which are rather logical and intrigueing. Most especially I was thinking of how the battle ships in his Revelation Space series always contain extraneous facilities meant to keep the ships in combat longer. These facilities include the ability to harvest raw materials from different components in the ship, from asteroids, and even from planet atmospheres. The raw materials are then used in the ship's manufacturing facilities to create ammunitions, shuttles, missiles, or even replacement parts in case the ship gets damaged (and survives). I feel that this can be implemented in EVE, although we have a small matter that is truely obstructive to this idea - namely that the size ratio from raw materials to components is the wrong logical way. Raw materials are larger than refined components in EVE, wheras the logical direction is that manufactured components would contain space between matter that isn't needed when storing raw materials and as such components would be bigger than the mineral amounts that were used to build them. Regardless, I will describe what I imagine. I will examplify with the Gallentean version and quantify with descriptions for how I'd see the other races to be different. Achilles Flagship class capital ship. Req.: Capital Ships III, Gallente Battleship V, Gallente Industrial V, Metalurgy V. Jump drive range: 5 light years (dreadnought) Corporate hangar size: 10,000 m¦ (enough for two destroyers) Ship maintenance bay: 0 m¦ (this is for carriers) Raw materials bay: 5,000 m¦ (minerals, reactions, and T2 components ONLY in this bay) High: 5 Hardpoints: 4 turrets, 0 launchers Mid: 5 Low: 7 Drone bay: 500 m¦ Note that the Achilles is lacking slightly in high slots and hardpoints due to reliance on drones. The others have 7 high slots and 6 hard points. Racial combat bonuses: Amarr (A): -10% capital energy turret capacitor use and +5% capital energy turret damage. Caldari (C): -5% citadel torpedo launcher rate of fire and +20% citadel torpedo velocity. Gallente (G): +20% drone damage and hit points and +5% capital hybrid turret damage. Minmatar (M): +5% capital projectile turret damage and -5% capital projectile turret rate of fire. Note that I'm rather bored with capital ships that do not participate effectively in the actual battlefield. Production facilities. Refining array base efficiency: 20% (100% efficiency is not attainable) Refining array time consumption: 600 seconds Production array base mineral factor: 1.2x Production array base time consumption: 1.0x Production slots: 4 Blueprint input: Cargo hold Input hangar: Materials bay Output hangar: Corporate hangar array Racial production bonuses: Static bonus: -96% CPU on strip miner CPU need. This is to gather more minerals in the field, note how the ships do not get a yield bonus! A strip miner'd take 480 CPU, so more than one shouldn't be *****ble - compared to around 110 cpu for a capital turret[/b] All: -5% mineral need when producing racial frigates or destroyers (A): -10% time need when producing capacitor charges (C): -10% time need when producing missiles (G): -10% time need when producing drones (M): -10% time need when producing turret ammunition [i]When producing frigates and destroyers, they will be produced in a packaged state. They become unpackaged and ready to fly by ejecting, a one time only procedure, after which a short time is needed to fit with modules the ship for the pilot in question - all of which can also be produced in the factories. EVE's been designed not to need on-the-spot refueling, which makes this ship design slightly less needed, but to be honest, wouldn't it be cool? Did I miss any important stats? Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:37:00 - [2] 5x Strip Miner II's? Can refine minerals itself? Can build small ships inside it? Welcome to the carebear ship of the future. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Ithildin on 03/08/2006 09:41:30 Originally by: Twilight Moon 5x Strip Miner II's? Can refine minerals itself? Can build small ships inside it? Welcome to the carebear ship of the future. Ugh, yeah. Good point. Should add a guarde against that. Was meant to only be able to fit 1 strip miner, preferably at low efficiency as a last resort ;) Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
KilROCK Minmatar Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.03 09:48:00 - [4] Edited by: KilROCK on 03/08/2006 09:49:15 I thought i was going to see a decent support ship, not a capital mining barge But i like that idea XL turrets on another cheap ship that isn't a dread or titan is always a little nice idea. SMACKING IN A TOPIC NEAR YOU / WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Anpi Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:27:00 - [5] I think it's a pretty damned nice idea. Flying caldari I've always wondered how a caldari navy on is supposed to support itself behind enemy lines in times of war. I can hardly support a rathunt for very long before docking with a station. You don't want to use the carriers to jump in and out all the time to refill the hangars with missiles. Real wartime logistics should make it possible for a fleet to stay out in the field for extended periods of time. Now for feedback. I would actually like it to not have any strip miners at all. It's an obvious ship to pair with a mothership in the field, since they are pretty dependent on supplies even if the term mothership would imply that it is selfsufficient and can supply a fleet. The mothership would have to keep some mining barges in the hold, and pilots would have to bring them out and fly off to get ore for the production-ship. The other part is the building of frigates and destroyers, and subsequent arming of them. I don't mind much about the production of the ships, but rearming ships is supposed to be done at a carrier or mothership. That's part of their purpose and they are useless enough as is ;) A ship for building more fighters and ammo for the hangarstores of a mothership is the perfect centerpoint for any fleet that want to stay out in the field for extended periods.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:45:00 - [6] bar the stripminer thingy I can see the thing being used in long-range mining ops, deep enemy incursions and a ship for a new kind of gipsy corp in EVE. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.03 20:44:00 - [7] I'm so glad when ideas I have work with you people. I tend to agree, the strip miner isn't necessary. 5000 metrics of minerals should be enough for a sustainable operation. After all, that's something like 5 destroyers. Additionally, it's supposed to be a combat ship, so a strip miner'd probably just detract from it. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Fronnhelm Freelancer Union	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:00:00 - [8] I like the idea! But why not just give the titans manufacturing ability. Would be so cool, load the titan upp with minerals keep it building frigates and the podded pilots just use the clone bay and then jump in a fresh new frigate. (still with that minty new ship smell )
Cadman Weyland Millennium E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:06:00 - [9] I like it. No complaints here, though maybe watch the Strip miner usage. Director of Bubbles and Noobs
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Fronnhelm I like the idea! Thanks! Quote: But why not just give the titans manufacturing ability. Would be so cool, load the titan upp with minerals keep it building frigates and the podded pilots just use the clone bay and then jump in a fresh new frigate. (still with that minty new ship smell ) Yes, why not? However, I feel that there should exist a smaller ship than Titans that can do it, too, as well as do some basic combat (Carriers and Dreads can't do basic combat). Note that due to mineral to module compression, there needs to be an artificially created hangar for mineral storage, otherwise storgage of ready modules is more efficient in all cases except cap injector charges, I'm afraid. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death

Derran Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:46:00 - [11] Edited by: Derran on 03/08/2006 21:48:17 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Fronnhelm I like the idea! Thanks! Quote: But why not just give the titans manufacturing ability. Would be so cool, load the titan upp with minerals keep it building frigates and the podded pilots just use the clone bay and then jump in a fresh new frigate. (still with that minty new ship smell ) Yes, why not? Titans already do enough as it is and only some of the biggest organizations will ever have one as they cost around 60,000,000,000. However, that said, I like this idea. Especially as I can see a ship design like this being cheaper than a carrier so many more corporations can own them. It is a mobile POS without being better than one as far as manufacturing and refining ability go. It is a severe pain in the ass to haul all kinds of POS gear down to deep space to try to set up a temporary base if you just want to do some basic mining there for perhaps a day or two and then leave. It takes like half a day just to bring up a semi decent small POS which can be wiped out easily by anyone with a couple of dreadnaughts and about 40 minutes to spare.:P I'm not sure of the usefulness of the capital turret stuff though. They can't hit much of anything unless it is another capital ship. There may be other kinds of bonuses that would suit this sort of ship design better.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:59:00 - [12] The idea of a refining capital has been thrown arround before on the ideas forum. Roughly, same refine as a standard POS refiner for 3-4 billion, a smaller hanger but more cargo capacity than the carrier. No turret slots, but a bonus to all mining command modules. This is a more " mining support carrier" style of ship, but thought I'd throw it in as a discussion point.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.04 08:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Maya Rkell The idea of a refining capital has been thrown arround before on the ideas forum. Roughly, same refine as a standard POS refiner for 3-4 billion, a smaller hanger but more cargo capacity than the carrier. No turret slots, but a bonus to all mining command modules. This is a more " mining support carrier" style of ship, but thought I'd throw it in as a discussion point. The idea is not for Just Another Safespot SitterÖ. It's mostly for a more logical combat ship since it doesn't make much sense that larger ships, capital ships especially, wouldn't feature the facilities necessary for replacing and rebuilding ammunitions, drones, fighters, and even smaller ships. The refineries are actually very secondary with this concept, and was intended more in conjunction with the single strip miner of the original plan to refuel raw materials on the spot. As it is written now, all it does is give it a civvy application in a low-yield refinery mode for a sort of new Ninja Mining - after all you'd only get about 75% refinery efficiency from this Flagship. The central point here is the factory. If you carry a few blueprints and a bunchload of minerals, you can basically tailor reinforcements and refueling. However, the problem is, still, that while raw materials to ship expansion is 1:10, the raw materials to modules is closer to 3:2. This fact makes the on-board factories less attractive. So, to reitterate. Key points of this idea is: 1. Factories 2. Turrets and launchers 3. Refineries In that order. P.S. Gotta check the production efficiencies of frigates. Mustn't let Flagships produce anything at less than 1.0x minerals, otherwise you can... manufacture... minerals by building stuff in the Flagship and refining it at a 50% station refinery. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Deviana Sevidon Gallente easyCredits	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:10:00 - [14] How about two kinds of this ship. One military and one of a civilian type. Both have the ability to support smaller craft. The Military/version can build small (T1) Frigates and Destroyers and rearm larger Ships and repair Damage. The Civilian Version is build for mining. It has space for small Barges/Exhumers inside and the ability to refine ore, but less efficient than in an Outpost or POS. Both Ships are travelling via Jumpdrive and can transport Frigate or Destroyer-Sized Ships to their destination. Imagine a Deep-Space Strike-Carrier bringing 10 Interceptors into the Backyard of an Alliance. The Civilan Version of this Ship would be used for Capital-Ninja-Mining. Getting into the Space of an Alliance, dropping Barges and Frigates and then mining the belts clean. When this has been achieved or the owners of the Region send a force to remove the Ninja-Miners, they can use their jump-capable ship to escape. For balancing reasons, both versions should be unable to use cloaking devices.
Darknar	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:24:00 - [15] i would like to see a capital production ship that has been created by ORE, so it would be a none racial capital ship, simply put capital miners would need to be created(long range T2 mining lasers possible heavy mining drones(as big as fighters) refinery production can engage into a mining mode, like seige mode but bonuses only include mining and it cant create anything and its much more vunerable. enough hanger space to fit peoples mining barges and combat ships. sounds like a greate idea and a possibility for ore to create there own capital ship. it would alo have to be a lo sec ship onlyso carebears would not be able to use it. and if a macrominer uses it then there will be a big boom. love the idea ithildin but it will create more problems if created. :(
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:29:00 - [16] Rumour has it that the reason industrials have such high CPU (and possibly why they are called industrials instead of cargo ships) is because CCP were playing with a refining module that would have fitted onboard these ships. So, the refining part of this idea has probably been considered and abandoned before. However, I love the idea of a mobile logistics ship of the type the OP describes and I think it would also fit in very well with the Dev's ideas for Kali - the bit about opening new areas of 0.0 with no stations at all. I'd love it. Tar om -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:39:00 - [17] your design has some flaws i want to light up: a) it cant tank well enough to make it worthwile for pos siege -> XL turrets kinda pointless b) having a x billion capital ship in a belt to refine ore is abit of a waste and would make alliances "task" to control space even more furtile since everyone can just come in mine, SS and (or jump out directly if the ship keeps 75% capacitor). c) it lacks the cargo space and orespace to really have any use for refining bigger amounts of ore of a mining op the size justifying a capital ship. d) on the spot production of ammo isnt really needed since you will need to haul or mine the minerals for it, making it either less profitable or cramped with 10k m3 minerals. In short ammo can be carried cheaply in carriers. Without beeing to hard to your idea, afterall its something new and you deffinately put alot of work into it, i personally think it wont be worth the money and would prolly do more harm then good to eves balance. We surely dont want "unable to catch" 0.0 mining rats.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.04 19:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Kcel Chim your design has some flaws i want to light up: a) it cant tank well enough to make it worthwile for pos siege -> XL turrets kinda pointless b) having a x billion capital ship in a belt to refine ore is abit of a waste and would make alliances "task" to control space even more furtile since everyone can just come in mine, SS and (or jump out directly if the ship keeps 75% capacitor). c) it lacks the cargo space and orespace to really have any use for refining bigger amounts of ore of a mining op the size justifying a capital ship. d) on the spot production of ammo isnt really needed since you will need to haul or mine the minerals for it, making it either less profitable or cramped with 10k m3 minerals. In short ammo can be carried cheaply in carriers. Without beeing to hard to your idea, afterall its something new and you deffinately put alot of work into it, i personally think it wont be worth the money and would prolly do more harm then good to eves balance. We surely dont want "unable to catch" 0.0 mining rats. a) It's not meant for POS sieges. Capital turrets hit battleships just fine. Even better than battleships hit cruisers. b) ...unless the ship needs be stationary while performing the refining action c) It takes much more than 10 minutes to fill the mineral space it has. After this has been refined, it can be moved to other industrials. Regardless, it's not a flaw. It's not intended for heavy duty refining outpost jobs. It's NOT a replacement for multi-billion isk stations. d) As discussed in original post, yes, sadly it isn't. But it'd be cool, no? Additionally, these ships would be ideal for SALVAGING (see: Kali 1) Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Katabrok First Caldari Kindergarden Corp	Posted - 2006.08.04 20:37:00 - [19] I couldn't help, but: Which would be the achilles heel? Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.04 23:09:00 - [20] mkae it so that the ship can only refine when in "siege mode", means it cant ss for 10mins or even 20mins, so u have to guard it pretty well. i alsp think that the offensive power should b reduced tbh :P. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.

Drommy Gallente DarkSide Inc	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon How about two kinds of this ship. One military and one of a civilian type. Both have the ability to support smaller craft. The Military/version can build small (T1) Frigates and Destroyers and rearm larger Ships and repair Damage. The Civilian Version is build for mining. It has space for small Barges/Exhumers inside and the ability to refine ore, but less efficient than in an Outpost or POS. Both Ships are travelling via Jumpdrive and can transport Frigate or Destroyer-Sized Ships to their destination. Imagine a Deep-Space Strike-Carrier bringing 10 Interceptors into the Backyard of an Alliance. The Civilan Version of this Ship would be used for Capital-Ninja-Mining. Getting into the Space of an Alliance, dropping Barges and Frigates and then mining the belts clean. When this has been achieved or the owners of the Region send a force to remove the Ninja-Miners, they can use their jump-capable ship to escape. For balancing reasons, both versions should be unable to use cloaking devices. NO IF YOU AINT BLUE... YOUR GOO DARKSIDE INC
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:57:00 - [22] tbh the only 2 things which eve needs to get a serious colonisation boost are 1) the right "civilian" tools for it a) Capital jump freighter of some sort to run the deepspace heavy cargo logistics which take atm far too long. b) mobile refineries (anchorable like in a dev blog of 2 years ago) 2) the risk vs reward scheme altered so 0.0 actually becomes a juicy option over empire agentw0ring.

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