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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Magus Lay Aurion
Red Horse Expeditions Peacekeepers of High-Sec
0
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Posted - 2014.09.16 22:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I was speaking to someone about the long alignment times and what modules I prefer to lower it down. He showed me this technique he called "sling shot webbers" where you start to align then have somebody webify you (you in freighter) and it causes the freighter to warp in almost an instant. I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.
My question was whether this was simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? I hadn't heard of or seen this technique beforehand. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1308
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Posted - 2014.09.16 22:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? Cool trick. [witty image] - Stream |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6463
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Posted - 2014.09.16 22:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1308
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Posted - 2014.09.16 22:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists. Well, this and autopiloting. I hear autopiloting makes it much less boring, and your trip will be over before you know it! [witty image] - Stream |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
7117
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Posted - 2014.09.16 22:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Doc Fury wrote:It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists. Well, this and autopiloting. I hear autopiloting makes it much less boring, and your trip will be over before you know it! Only if you go through Uedama. Then it's much more interesting. |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
356
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:So, I was speaking to someone about the long alignment times and what modules I prefer to lower it down. He showed me this technique he called "sling shot webbers" where you start to align then have somebody webify you (you in freighter) and it causes the freighter to warp in almost an instant. I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.
My question was whether this was simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? I hadn't heard of or seen this technique beforehand.
The mechanics of speed vs. modified speed are used in several instances in New Eden, including sling shotting freighters, combining a MWD and a cloak to align while cloaked and warp out when coming out of cloak (this takes practice as I understand it), and pulsing a 100mn MWD on an Orca for a roughly 10 second align time. Profit favors the prepared |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
843
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:S I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.
Actually, it is ridiculously simple to explain.
Agility and Inertia affect how long it takes to align to achieve warp at 75% speed. Lowering your top speed simply reduces where that 75% line is.
So in essence (other regions too I'm sure), your align time is reduced by the same ratio your speed is reduced by webificationifying (George Bush plays EvE).
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6111
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
From an older thread...
Ok, so... warp requires two things...
- alignment towards the object in question. - be between 75% and 125% max speed.
The MWD-pulse and webbing trick are not inconsistencies... rather, they are workarounds that manipulate the speed requirement (alignment isn't a consideration when starting from a "dead stop"... you are already "aligned" once you start moving).
How it works:
- The MWD-pulse trick increases the max speed of a ship, however the agility (acceleration) of certain ships are so low that they will never reach even close to max MWD speed within one MWD cycle. Instead, they just happen to reach (or be within) that needed 75% to 125% max speed threshold when the MWD is turned off. For example: 100mn Orca
- The Webbing trick does the exact opposite of the MWD-pulse trick... instead of temporarily increasing max speed it reduces it to where the current speed is. Again, remember that some ships have very poor agility (meaning very poor acceleration). A single web reduces max speed (not current speed) by 60%. Two webs by ~87% (because stacking penalties do apply). This means that a freighter that has a max speed of ~100 m/sec only needs to be going ~10 m/sec for the desired outcome (warping).
What CCP thinks of these things:
- the MWD-pulse trick has been known and used for years. More thrill-seeking players often combine them with a cloak (the T2, non-Covert-Ops one) to get through gate camps in battleships. Petitions (and threads) have often been filed against this tactic but they usually are rebuffed and the filer pointed towards the Features and Ideas forum if they "feel very strongly" (which is then generally rebuffed by the playerbase because we do not see a problem with it).
- The Webbing-trick was never intended by the DEVs... but it was showcased by CCP during Fanfest 2013 as an example of "emergent gameplay" that they were generally fine with (note: watch the whole thing, it is quite interesting how they view their own game and mechanics). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
When flying a freighter be Vigilant. |
Paranoid Loyd
1895
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:When flying a freighter be Vigilant.
You use a Vigilant for hauling? "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
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Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:When flying a freighter be Vigilant. You use a Vigilant for hauling? DST can also use a 10MN MWD for 10 second align times. Messing around the other day I learned that 10MN AB gets my Iteron aligned in 8 ticks. Need to test on DST.
Try duel webbing with federation navy webs. Encourage others to do so.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2245
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Magus Lay Aurion wrote: simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? This is quite valid and not an exploit in any way shape or form. Feel free to use it at your leisure. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Paranoid Loyd
1896
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Try duel webbing with federation navy webs. Encourage others to do so.
I got it, just my poor attempt at humor. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
175
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Okay, Here is an explanation.
In order to warp you have to be pointed in the direction you want to go and be going at least 75% of your maximum velocity.
Your ability to change speed (Or direction but that doesn't matter, I'll explain slightly later) so that you can get to warp is based on your ship's Inertia Modifier or agility. For example a Kestral has a speedy inertia modifier of 3.27. Larger ships tend to have smaller inertia modifiers. For example a Raven has an inertia modifier of a slow 0.12. What is the inertia modifier of a Freighter? A Charon has a inertia modifier of 0.0625. Meaning that it can accelerate as fast as cool molasses.
Mathematically the system treats your ship like a vector with the direction being the direction you are going and the length being how fast you are going in that direction. Since you start at exactly 0 m/s when you jump into a system the direction you are facing graphically is not relevant, your vector has 0 length and therefore no real direction. So when you start heading to the other gate you turn to the proper direction instantly* then start accelerating (slowly in the case of a you flying a Freighter). However, if your corpmate** has a stasis webifier fitted they can help you out. A Stasis Webifier decreases your maximum velocity. It does not directly decrease your actual velocity, except if your velocity is greater than your maximum velocity you will slow down (You won't be having that problem in a Freighter though).
Here is the beauty part. Your corpmate's webs have reduced your max velocity and so reduced how fast you have to go to get to warp. Your inertia modifier is the same as it ever was and you lose no speed from before you were webbed, You are always pointed in the direction you want to go by the laws of linear algebra. Therefore you warp faster. It is not an exploit, but rather a clever use of game mechanics, the same mechanics that save at least one hostile daily who was webbed first instead of warp scrambled***.
*If you have ever seen a battleship warp onto a grid sideways this is probably why, the graphics have to turn the ship ponderously but the math has turned the ship the proper direction already if they were at exactly 0 m/s. Also this is why 'passive aligning' doesn't do anything. If you have no speed, you have no direction, any direction would be good enough (although FC's can still catch sleeping people by telling the fleet to passive align)
**And it has to be a corpmate, or someone who continuously accepts dueling requests (Or a wartarget, or someone who activated a killright)
***I'll leave why as an exercise for the reader. |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:When flying a freighter be Vigilant. You use a Vigilant for hauling? DST can also use a 10MN MWD for 10 second align times. Messing around the other day I learned that 10MN AB gets my Iteron aligned in 8 ticks. Need to test on DST. Try duel webbing with federation navy webs. Encourage others to do so. Nah, I encourage them to use ships with a web range bonus. Cannot guarantee an insta web warp without it, especially in parts of space where the gate models are bigger. |
Vyl Vit
776
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Posted - 2014.09.17 01:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
TimeToWarp = -ln(0.25) +ù Mass +ù Agility/1000000
And, don't you forget it! Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
16822
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Posted - 2014.09.17 01:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:This is quite valid and not an exploit in any way shape or form. Feel free to use it at your leisure.
Wrong. Exploit. If everything else is considered an exploit by people..then this is DEFINITELY an exploit. Come on man..get with the program and call legitimate things exploits or else th....
Whoa...
Sorry Ezwal, thought you were a GD regular for a moment there.
.... I guess you kinda are...
I don't know where I was going with this.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
59
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Posted - 2014.09.17 01:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
One thing to remember is that webbing freighter for faster warp is best done at gates after the jump, i.e., when the freighter is at stand still (0m/s), which means that there is no alignment time.
If you web a freighter coming out of undock and aligning to its jump destination, it seems that your warp will initiate actually slower than not being webbed. |
Cyrek Ohaya
Perkone Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2014.09.17 01:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Make sure whoever is webbing you part of your corp, or in a duel, or they might be some confusion with the authorities. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1136
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Posted - 2014.09.17 02:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yeah, when tricks like these help freighter pilots escape ganking death its always "emergent gameplay". Arguably, the warp speed threshold should scale with the web effect and a web would have no effect on your time to warp. This would also be a pretty thing to fix. But it gives pilots a way to save their assets, so game on, 'its A-OK'.
On the other hand, when webbing tricks are used in a similar manner to KILL targets and victims start screaming? Suddenly the 'emergent gameplay' turns into a bannable exploit. Never mind that faction police frequently killed -10 pilots using this same 'exploit'.
exploit notification from lead gm grimmi
It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. Our Game Design team will be working to deploy a fix for this issue in the near future.
Hooray for coddling. |
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6474
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Posted - 2014.09.17 02:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Yeah, when tricks like these help freighter pilots escape ganking death its always "emergent gameplay". Arguably, the warp speed threshold should scale with the web effect and a web would have no effect on your time to warp. This would also be a pretty thing to fix. But it gives pilots a way to save their assets, so game on, 'its A-OK'. On the other hand, when webbing tricks are used in a similar manner to KILL targets and victims start screaming? Suddenly the 'emergent gameplay' turns into a bannable exploit. Never mind that faction police frequently killed -10 pilots using this same 'exploit'. exploit notification from lead gm grimmi
It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. Our Game Design team will be working to deploy a fix for this issue in the near future.Hooray for coddling.
You probably didn't want to post that even if you are into coddling. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
1136
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Posted - 2014.09.17 02:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.
When the same 'tricks' are used to trap and kill players, its labelled an 'exploit' or nerfed ASAP.
Orca swap tricks, webs, logoffski, insurance for self-destruction vs Concord, you name it.
The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.
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Paranoid Loyd
1899
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Posted - 2014.09.17 02:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.
When the same 'tricks' are used to trap and kill players, its labelled an 'exploit' or nerfed ASAP.
Orca swap tricks, webs, logoffski, insurance for self-destruction vs Concord, you name it.
The legitimacy of the 'exploit', really, only depends on which type of player is benefiting from it.
We all benefit from this one, especially the people who learn the intricacies of the game. Not saying working as designed, but working as intended (intentions change based on unforeseen circumstances). "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1319
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Posted - 2014.09.17 07:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:duel webbing I demand satisfaction! [witty image] - Stream |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
310
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Posted - 2014.09.17 07:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:DST can also use a 10MN MWD for 10 second align times. Messing around the other day I learned that 10MN AB gets my Iteron aligned in 8 ticks. Need to test on DST. Most ships with appropriately sized ABs can align in 7.5 seconds by this method. It is certainly the case with DSTs.
The reason the MWD was used is simply its consistent 10 second cycle, until recently the AB had a far longer cycle. When ABs were changed to 10 second base with the AB skill reducing that the AB became the faster route - Even if your AB is only a 100% speed boost you would have to be crazily over-plated not to reach ~40% top speed in 7.5 seconds. |
Darth Bladius
Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels
27
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Posted - 2014.09.17 08:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Magus Lay Aurion wrote:S I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration. Actually, it is ridiculously simple to explain. Agility and Inertia affect how long it takes to align to achieve warp at 75% speed. Lowering your top speed simply reduces where that 75% line is.So in essence (other regions too I'm sure), your align time is reduced by the same ratio your speed is reduced by webificationifying (George Bush plays EvE).
And now tell me I should fit a cargo extender to my crow. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1583
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Posted - 2014.09.17 15:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Just pointing out that when 'tricks' are used to escape PVP, the 'bugs' become features, or remain in game for years.
Didn't your GM quote refer to a bug some expansions back, where vindicators could web people to the point of their ship being unable to warp as if disrupted / scrambled? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Prince Kobol
2178
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Posted - 2014.09.17 15:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dont mind Herr Wilkus, he is still butt hurt over the boomerang tactic being declared an exploit
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Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
129
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Posted - 2014.09.17 15:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Magus Lay Aurion wrote:So, I was speaking to someone about the long alignment times and what modules I prefer to lower it down. He showed me this technique he called "sling shot webbers" where you start to align then have somebody webify you (you in freighter) and it causes the freighter to warp in almost an instant. I don't quite remember the physics behind it, but it had to do with manipulating the speed to lower the inertia in contrast to increasing acceleration.
My question was whether this was simply a cool trick or if this is considered an exploit? I hadn't heard of or seen this technique beforehand.
Just part of the game mechanics.
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Lucrii Dei
Vector Galactic The Big Dirty
32
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Posted - 2014.09.17 16:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Doc Fury wrote:It's also the only way to move freighters long distances without slashing your own wrists. Well, this and autopiloting. I hear autopiloting makes it much less boring, and your trip will be over before you know it!
The correct response. GöÇGòó The Explorer I GöÇGòó The Explorer II (Coming Soon!)
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