Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
BlackCobalt
7
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Do you agree
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39TtF14i8I&feature=youtu.be |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10012
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lack of content.
In before the Lock.
Please have a nice day. :) Meta Portrait: umm, looks like youre 'busy', young love, sexual and sensual, soft&warm, OMG naked???, are you kissin or blo..., so much feels, most sexually suggestive pic I've seen. I make it feel real... (: :) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1544
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 00:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
You know EVE has deflation atm right and employs an actual economist to help them? Not sure who replaced our beloved last economist. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1347
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
agree with what |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
431
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You know EVE has deflation atm right and employs an actual economist to help them? Not sure who replaced our beloved last economist.
B-but muh PLEX prices say otherwise!!!! IF WE'RE IN DEFLATION PLEXES SHOULD BE 300 MIL!!!!!
Was this what the economist said during fanfest? |
Vyl Vit
781
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Three Stooges Play Economics. Pictures at eleven. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1339
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Posted - 2014.09.18 00:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
"The only devs I've seen come close to controlling inflation solely through death mechanics are the folks at CCP with eve online. In that game the economic cost of dying is so staggering it becomes a strong tool to reign in inflation. They also encourage large scale player wars as a key element of the game. These wars destroy so many goods, which then must be replaced, which helps to keep inflation in check."
I rate this Extra Credits: Extra Credits/Extra Credits. [witty image] - Stream |
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3544
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Interesting. Even though expecting your audience to follow an economic theory train of logic-- while derailing the thought process with dumb visual pun images every 2 seconds-- is a very bad idea. I suppose I could have turned the video off and just listened to the audio. That's a big leap on the effort/sacrificing my scarce amount of slack scale, though. WTH, I'll give him some feedback on the youtube page. "Economics, like chess, cannot be made more entertaining with hyper visuals. The only interest is in following the thought progression, toward the conclusion." "Were [sic] not your monkey and so what?"-á -The Sex Pistols (2006) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1544
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:B-but muh PLEX prices say otherwise!!!! IF WE'RE IN DEFLATION PLEXES SHOULD BE 300 MIL!!!!! Was this what the economist said during fanfest? Assuming that was sarcastic, but for the uninitiated, Plex prices are not linked to inflation. Plex prices are being driven mainly by people involved in market speculation as evidenced by CCP's figures showing most plex pass through several players before finally being actually used for something. And yes, also the market itself speaks about deflation. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
431
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:B-but muh PLEX prices say otherwise!!!! IF WE'RE IN DEFLATION PLEXES SHOULD BE 300 MIL!!!!! Was this what the economist said during fanfest? Assuming that was sarcastic, but for the uninitiated, Plex prices are not linked to inflation. Plex prices are being driven mainly by people involved in market speculation as evidenced by CCP's figures showing most plex pass through several players before finally being actually used for something. And yes, also the market itself speaks about deflation.
I've always wondered about that. I haven't been on my jita alt for a long time now. How does one know if the economy is in deflation? The prices of trit are higher? |
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Creamdream
Unlimited Potential
4
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
OP clearly didn't attend a decent university |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6500
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:"The only devs I've seen come close to controlling inflation solely through death mechanics are the folks at CCP with eve online. In that game the economic cost of dying is so staggering it becomes a strong tool to reign in inflation. They also encourage large scale player wars as a key element of the game. These wars destroy so many goods, which then must be replaced, which helps to keep inflation in check."
I rate this Extra Credits: Extra Credits/Extra Credits.
Edit: For anyone who doesn't follow, the above is bollocks, and whoever wrote it doesn't know what inflation is.
Would like a word:
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1340
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Is this supposed to be relevant? [witty image] - Stream |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5336
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:"The only devs I've seen come close to controlling inflation solely through death mechanics are the folks at CCP with eve online. In that game the economic cost of dying is so staggering it becomes a strong tool to reign in inflation. They also encourage large scale player wars as a key element of the game. These wars destroy so many goods, which then must be replaced, which helps to keep inflation in check."
I rate this Extra Credits: Extra Credits/Extra Credits.
Edit: For anyone who doesn't follow, the above is bollocks, and whoever wrote it doesn't know what inflation is.
Yeah, OP, if you can't see why this guy is confused, take a look at that ship you're flying right now. Specifically, the info box, and there under the industry tab, you can see the materials required to build it. Unlike a shiny suit of armour and sword in WoW, everything you use in EVE is made by a player, not an NPC.
Add to that the permaloss aspect - once it's gone, it's gone for good - and all those materials that went into producing it are now gone as well. Replacing them isn't what keeps inflation in check, but merely the simple act of destroying them to begin with. Contrast that with WoW and SWTOR where you death means somehow, you still have all the same stuff, and you'll begin to grasp a better understanding of EVE's economic stability.
Then there is the fact that EVE runs a veritable gamut of other isk sinks - wardecs, bounties, PVP itself, PI setup, SCC taxes - there's a long list of things that take isk out of EVE, not just 'death mechanics'.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1341
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Replacing them isn't what keeps inflation in check, but merely the simple act of destroying them to begin with. Ship destruction destroys stuff but not ISK, and thus contributes to inflation. [witty image] - Stream |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6500
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 01:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Is this supposed to be relevant?
If you work for Zorg it is.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
431
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Replacing them isn't what keeps inflation in check, but merely the simple act of destroying them to begin with. Ship destruction destroys stuff but not ISK, and thus contributes to inflation.
I may not be an indy player but don't you require ISK to manufacture stuff? Even in POSes. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5336
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 01:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Replacing them isn't what keeps inflation in check, but merely the simple act of destroying them to begin with. Ship destruction destroys stuff but not ISK, and thus contributes to inflation.
Yes, stuff that isk went into buying/building, making it a sink for that isk. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1342
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Posted - 2014.09.18 01:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:I may not be an indy player but don't you require ISK to manufacture stuff? Even in POSes. This is true, so to be accurate I should say that ship destruction is a small ISK sink and a large stuff sink, but since more stuff is destroyed than ISK so net effect is still a stuff sink. Edit: And this is ignoring insurance, which I forgot since I haven't insured anything in a while. That'll add more to the game than the manufacturing costed, making destruction an ISK faucet as well as a stuff sink.
Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, stuff that isk went into buying/building, making it a sink for that isk. The difference is the ISK spent on building is gone, whereas the ISK spent on buying merely changes hands, and the latter is the far larger amount. This is the same mistake the OP's video makes.
Inflation. [witty image] - Stream |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5336
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 01:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
That's not good enough. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1343
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Posted - 2014.09.18 02:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
What's really going to upset you is the rum forecast. Brought to you by "Extra Credits: How extrapolation works". [witty image] - Stream |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5337
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 02:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:What's really going to upset you is the rum forecast. Brought to you by "Extra Credits: How extrapolation works".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1343
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 02:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s My face when the video isn't called Do Not Want [witty image] - Stream |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
106
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Posted - 2014.09.18 02:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't think this is an important concept for EVE. It would be different if we were spending ISK on fixed cost items from NPCs. Look, if a piece of ore cost 3 ISK a few years ago, but now ISK is twice as accesible and a piece of ore costs 6 ISK to acquire, your purchasing power remains the same.
The only thing that inflation does is to encourage players to not sit on fat wallets and instead invest in other items that are more inflation-proof and easy to liquidate. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
14013
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 02:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Crumplecorn wrote:Is this supposed to be relevant? If you work for Zorg it is.
This is all good and fine until Mr. Shadow makes a phone call.. I'm sorry Peps ~ And when the seasons change, will you stand by me? ~ |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2322
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Posted - 2014.09.18 02:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
No |
Angeal MacNova
LankTech
199
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Posted - 2014.09.18 04:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Over simplified but yes. Although I don't agree with the effect of giving in-game money RL monetary value. From what I've seen, when this happens, it actually causes a period of inflation (Too many no-life gamers with more money than brains). It would've painted a better picture if it went more in-depth to just how the government and banks can control inflation through the use of automatic and fiscal policies.
The biggest problem with game economies is that there is a disconnect in the cycle. You have isk sources (bounties) and then you have isk sinks (clone upgrades, isk based LP purchases, war dec fees, etc.)
Now compare this to a RL "source" and "sink".
Employment Insurance (source) Tax (sink)
In a game, the source prints new game money while sinks remove it but the two above in RL don't. The money paid out by the EI is money collected by taxes.
So in a game, this disconnect could be filled in.
Take EvE for example. Rather than having the infinite potential that currently exists where players can simply farm isk and flood the economy, the game could have a finite isk pool behind it.
Basically sinks fill the pool while sources drain it. You will see bounties on NPCs actually go up or down in relation to the amount of isk in circulation vs the amount in the pool.
As the pool decreases and the amount in circulation increases, bounties would decrease (along with other isk sources) and taxes & fees would increase (along with other isk sinks). Then as the scale tips the other way, bounties would increase while taxes & fees would decrease.
This would essentially be an automatic policy to help control inflation.
The fiscal policy, which would be governed by CCP, would be to inject or remove isk from the pool directly as needed. With all the sources and sinks controlled by equations, CCP need only change a single value instead of changing dozens.
Of course there would have to be a few unfavorable changes for this to work. Without these changes, people would continue to amass wealth as they do now leaving CCP no choice but to inject isk into the pool. Resulting in the infinite potential that currently exists.
One such unfavorable change is taxing personal and corp wallets. As a %, the more isk you have saved, the more you have to pay on a periodic (weekly or monthly) basis.
The way to avoid this taxation is to have your assets in the form of ships, modules, ammo, etc. and not as raw isk. Isk in escrow would be exempt taxation.
This encourages people to spend their isk (invest it) as a way to keep it moving. With it moving, it becomes subject to transaction taxes and fees.
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Vyl Vit
781
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Posted - 2014.09.18 13:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
How do you know there's inflation? You have an economy! Inflation is a tendency, not a condition. You can manage it. You can't stop it. It's like saying how do you know it's rain? It's wet outside. It tends to rain. Get rid of rain, you get rid of a lot of other stuff TOO, including YOU. So, the next time you see rainclouds...don't complain...
What's bad about runaway inflation? That's the question. It drives down the value of your currency. That's the answer. Why don't we use leaves for money? With all these trees, everyone would be rich! (Thanks Douglas Adams, and 42 right back atcha.) The profusity of leaves, the sheer abundance would make the concept of currency as a means of exchange absurd. Of course.
MMOs, as experience has shown everyone, tends to generate currency, or money. The first, and most time-honored way games do this is as a reward for effort. REMEMBER? You get XP, you get some item or other that's "dropped" and you get MUNNY. Kill the mob. Get paid. Kill the mob. Get paid. Well, of course, each time you do this, "money" enters the digital reality. It wasn't there. Now, it is there. Unlike real life, you don't need a commodity - or an investment banker with a phd in math, to gin-up money out of thin air. A computer will do that just fine by entering a figure in the right spot on the screen. Here we call that the "wallet." Hoo haw.
When people list how ISK is made, I noticed not many people mentioned mission payouts. Mission payouts are probably the most significant "printer of cash" in any game. Gamers won't game without some sort of pay off. The rise in gear quality alone demands more munny more munny more munny. It is how we gauge our progress. (Say it ain't so.)
The problem arises when there is more money being invented by the game than is being removed by actions in the game. To tell you the truth, it's a mathematical impossibility for a corporation the size of CCP to generate content on the scale that would match the money creation being done by its player base using mission payouts for rewards. It is inevitable the currency will amass faster than it's removed. Therefore, inflation is like the rain. It's here.
How does this become a real problem for a game like EVE? One thing devs can do is recalibrate the prices and payouts. More more more until we're dealing with figures like 1,000,000,000,000,000.00 ISK for a single level IV mission. Why this? Think about it. How long does it take you to go from first-day n00b to owning your first battle cruiser? Isn't that BC the mark of just being able to get off the porch and run with the big dogs?
What if it took a n00b a year to amass enough ISK to buy the first BC? Do you think that player would be around for that long? How long did it take YOU to make that first purchase - unaided, just on your own effort and enterprise? How long is long enough? Like it or not, advancing in a game is tied to this equation effort=payout. It's interesting. Is it solvable? I really don't think so.
"Place all the economists end to end and they point in every direction." -Harry S Truman-
Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
24605
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 13:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:"Place all the economists end to end and they point in every direction." -Harry S Truman- He also (supposedly) said GÇ£My economists keep saying GÇÿon the one hand GǪ on the other handGÇÖ GÇö can someone please bring me a one-handed economist?GÇ¥
H.S.T. wasn't a friend of the profession, it seems.
By the way, I suppose it's only appropriate to throw out this list again, since the simplifications in their video (and in many posts) need to be recalibrated:
ISK Faucets:- NPC bounties: Exploration, Belt rats, Missions
- NPC buy orders: Trade goods, Sleeper loot, Overseer effects, Tags
- Agent rewards: Mission rewards, Mission time bonuses, Incursion rewards, Deposit repayment
- Insurance payout
- GM actions: Reimbursement for lost pods
- Character creation
ISK Sinks:- Market taxes & fees: Broker fees, Sales tax
- NPC sell orders: Blueprints, Skill books, Trade goods
- NPC station services: Repairs, Jump clone installation, Medical clone installation/upgrade/station change, Ship insurance
- NPC station office fees: Rent, Impound penalties
- Science and industry taxes
- Wardecs
- Reimbursed player bounties.
- Sovereignty fees
- PI fees: Building PI structures, Import/export tax (from NPC-owned customs offices)
- Corp & alliance fees: Corp creation, Alliance creation, Alliance upkeep, Creating/awarding medals, Corp registry ads
- Agent fees: (Certain) LP store items, Locator agent services, Courier missions w/ deposits
- CSPA Charges
- Smuggling fines
- GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
- Character deletion (including the GÇ£soft sinkGÇ¥ of accounts being frozen or banned, and the even softer sink of accounts being abandoned forever)
Item Faucets:- Resource harvesting: Mining, Salvaging, PI, Moon mining
- NPC Destruction: Rats & structures in missions/exploration sites, Belt rats
- NPC Sell orders
- Exploration mini-professions: Hacking, Archaeology
- Agent hand-outs: Courier missions packages, Storyline mission rewards
Item Sinks:- PC destruction: Ships, POSs, POCOs, Personal deployables
- NPC buy orders
- Agent requirements: Courier, trade, kill-and-collect, and mining mission hand-ins
- Using one-use items: Skill books, Implants, Drugs, Module charges
- Siphons
- POS Fuel
Item Transformations:- Industry: Manufacturing, Reacting, PI, Outpost deployment
- Refining
- Compression
- (Certain) LP store items
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2282
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Posted - 2014.09.18 14:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thread has been moved to Out of Pod Experience. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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