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Brixton Jaynara
Helter Shelter
0
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Posted - 2014.09.18 20:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm just wondering how we all feel about the subject. Some of the Laser modules have a clear recoil animation when firing. As far as my understanding of recoil goes, it occurs from the force of the item leaving the weapon as it fires. With something like light being fired, how realistic is it to have a recoil animation? I personally am against it, and would love others opinions and knowledge on the subject. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2168
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Posted - 2014.09.18 20:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
While photons lack rest mass, they do have momentum (which obeys the basic relationship p=E/c=h/lambda where p is momentum, E is total energy, c is the speed of light, h is Planck's constant, and lambda is the wavelength of the photon). Since momentum is a conserved quantity in a system it would in fact make some sense that a concentrated beam consisting of a massive number of electrons would result in recoil on some level (even though that would normally be well under the visible threshold). So: assuming lasers in Eve push out enough photons -- sure, there would be macroscopic recoil effects due to conservation of momentum.
As for whether graphics *should* have recoil? Eh. I really don't care. |
Brixton Jaynara
Helter Shelter
0
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Posted - 2014.09.18 21:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Awesome response, thank you. |
Froggy Storm
Paragon Trust The Bastion
298
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Posted - 2014.09.18 21:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zhilia please have my babies. |
SGT FUNYOUN
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion
86
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Posted - 2014.09.18 23:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
This can also be taken a bit farther in that, masers and phasers are not actually just lasers, but are in fact (if you follow general Sci-Fi lore as a guide point) actually lasers that are augmented with other things like microwave generators and pulsing magnetic stack coils. These additional parts basically convert a pure laser into a weapon that instead of the laser basically just burning a hole in its target, it carries magnetic or microwave radiation with it to the target, thus using these extra forces like a plasma torch, cutting a hole with the heat from the laser photons super heating, but also from the kinetic and electromagnetic energy of the magnetic waves and the explosive force of the microwave radition... of course this sounds a bit funky even as I write it... anyone with a nuclear physics degree care to clear it up a bit with some actual science? |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
848
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Posted - 2014.09.19 00:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
The 'recoil' you speak of is the cyclic rapid cooling system.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13264
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Posted - 2014.09.19 01:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
In star trek vs star wars cat fights in sto I always loved to point out that SW lasers have recoil so they cant be lasers. Got them all wound up. Then I got banned for role playing an EVE spy with a cyno looking for hotdrop targets... Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
stoicfaux
5318
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Posted - 2014.09.19 01:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Technical answers aren't always required/needed. Instead, it could simply be religious symbolism based on the ********, i.e. expressing (male) power by exposing the naked strength of the Amarr god to awe both believers and non-believers on the field of battle.
After all, there's no technical reason to make a spaceship with good lines, engravings, and a golden hull.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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elitatwo
Congregatio
305
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Posted - 2014.09.19 03:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
stoicfaux, the Empress in the lore of the Amarr religion it's always been the Empress.
And to be honest, I have never seen my lasers having a recoil effect. But to be fair, I am usually more concerned about other things than my guns doing some fancy things.
Maybe OP can be a little more specific?
If you look at the turrent animation in the information tab, it will show an animation that those turrets do as soon as you come out of warp.
They added that when they made the new turret graphics a while back. So on any turret or missile boat the turrets or launchers go from 'offline' to 'ready' mode the moment the 'Warp drive active' notification goes away.
Did you mean that or did you zoom in on your boat in a mission?
Not to be rude but let's keep real world physics at a grey area or I will bring up antimatter again signature |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9831
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Posted - 2014.09.19 05:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In star trek vs star wars cat fights in sto I always loved to point out that SW lasers have recoil so they cant be lasers. Got them all wound up. Then I got banned for role playing an EVE spy with a cyno looking for hotdrop targets...
Star Wars "lasers" are actually a plasma bolt weapon system utilizing a magnetic field and superheated gas, anyway. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
311
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Posted - 2014.09.19 06:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Action = Reaction
In fact one commonly proposed engine technology to achieve travel at substantial proportions of c is the photon gun.
Quote:Star Wars "lasers" are actually a plasma bolt weapon system utilizing a magnetic field and superheated gas, anyway. Star Wars Blasters are plasma weapons, the lasers are still lasers. Though what exactly a Turbolaser is is another matter... |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1455
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Posted - 2014.09.19 07:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Quote:Star Wars "lasers" are actually a plasma bolt weapon system utilizing a magnetic field and superheated gas, anyway. Star Wars Blasters are plasma weapons, the lasers are still lasers. Though what exactly a Turbolaser is is another matter...
Despite the name, the Star Wars turbolasers and laser cannons are blaster-type weapons as well.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
311
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Posted - 2014.09.19 12:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Not sure where that's coming from... the cannon has been mucked around a lot over the years (and particularly since Disney).
My understanding is that Star Wars lasers are a distinct technology - the use of Blasters of ships and fighters basically disappeared with the early marks of the Z95, probably because the instability of the containment field led to drastic losses in effectiveness even at what would now be termed short range for Ship-to-Ship.
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Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1455
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Posted - 2014.09.19 12:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Not sure where that's coming from...
The list of references are at the bottom of the page, lots of sources from a variety of times. I can check the tech reference manuals (published late 80's, early 90's) when I get home, if you like.
Plus, if they were laser weapons, their shots would travel at c, which they don't appear to do. Of course, Star Wars physics is... different.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
487
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Posted - 2014.09.19 16:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
I always enjoy these science/physics based discussions. We argue these finer points as to if they are reasonable or not and yet we travel at warp speed from everywhere to everywhere and never question it. AND I think there are more ships inside Jita 4-4 than it can actually hold - no one ever gets upset over that.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
487
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Posted - 2014.09.19 16:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Speaking of Jita 4-4. Wouldn't it be awesome if it grew into a unique station based on the amount of activity there. Maybe caldari could make it into a double wide with more than one dock/undock point, because.... it needs it? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5008
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Speaking of Jita 4-4. Wouldn't it be awesome if it grew into a unique station based on the amount of activity there. Maybe caldari could make it into a double wide with more than one dock/undock point, because.... it needs it? +1 i have thought this many a time, same goes for dixi and amarr, hek is fine as is i.e. a ****hole. =]I[= |
Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
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Posted - 2014.09.19 18:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
I do like how most of the stargates are hard to warp to from the Jita dock, due to the station model. Forces you to many times boat out a bit, which gives a nice excuse to enjoy the view carnage. |
Arrogus Advenient
The Machine. LLC
2
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Posted - 2014.09.19 19:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:While photons lack rest mass, they do have momentum (which obeys the basic relationship p=E/c=h/lambda where p is momentum, E is total energy, c is the speed of light, h is Planck's constant, and lambda is the wavelength of the photon). Since momentum is a conserved quantity in a system it would in fact make some sense that a concentrated beam consisting of a massive number of electrons would result in recoil on some level (even though that would normally be well under the visible threshold). So: assuming lasers in Eve push out enough photons -- sure, there would be macroscopic recoil effects due to conservation of momentum.
As for whether graphics *should* have recoil? Eh. I really don't care.
To expand upon this, a Medium Beam Laser uses 7.22 GJ of energy to fire. Assuming 100% efficiency, the resulting beam of light would carry roughly 24 kg m/s of momentum, about the same as a liter of water moving at 55 mph. Decreases in efficiency would yield corresponding decreases in momentum, with the best modern lasers working at 30% efficiency.
So yes, lasers as powerful as those in eve would produce noticeable recoil. |
Polcor Rodal
Rentnerfabrik E.B.O.L.A.
0
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Posted - 2014.09.20 20:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Arrogus Advenient wrote:
....... about the same as a liter of water moving at 55 mph.....
MARVELLOUS !
Warping to bed now, imaging a Tetra-Pak of Perrier drifting through space.......
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
284
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Posted - 2014.09.20 20:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Brixton Jaynara wrote:I'm just wondering how we all feel about the subject. Some of the Laser modules have a clear recoil animation when firing. As far as my understanding of recoil goes, it occurs from the force of the item leaving the weapon as it fires. With something like light being fired, how realistic is it to have a recoil animation? I personally am against it, and would love others opinions and knowledge on the subject.
Clearly this isn't actually recoil, it's just a mechanism meant to draw the turrets back to help with cooling. Since it's kind of hard to bleed of heat into space, (Not many particles to take of the molecular movement, even in New Eden's weird super dense space.) this mechanism draws the outlying parts of the turrets physically closer to the cooling mechanism, to cool those parts faster and easier. |
Grimpak
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
2392
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Posted - 2014.09.20 23:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
also, piezoelectric laz0rz? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2014.09.24 10:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I always enjoy these science/physics based discussions. We argue these finer points as to if they are reasonable or not and yet we travel at warp speed from everywhere to everywhere and never question it. AND I think there are more ships inside Jita 4-4 than it can actually hold - no one ever gets upset over that.
i'm been waiting for a realistic warp animation for a while :(... space being compressed on the front - point in front of the ship that 'seems' to suck in the air/vacuum- and expanded at the back of the ship... |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
71
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Arrogus Advenient wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:While photons lack rest mass, they do have momentum (which obeys the basic relationship p=E/c=h/lambda where p is momentum, E is total energy, c is the speed of light, h is Planck's constant, and lambda is the wavelength of the photon). Since momentum is a conserved quantity in a system it would in fact make some sense that a concentrated beam consisting of a massive number of electrons would result in recoil on some level (even though that would normally be well under the visible threshold). So: assuming lasers in Eve push out enough photons -- sure, there would be macroscopic recoil effects due to conservation of momentum.
As for whether graphics *should* have recoil? Eh. I really don't care. To expand upon this, a Medium Beam Laser uses 7.22 GJ of energy to fire. Assuming 100% efficiency, the resulting beam of light would carry roughly 24 kg m/s of momentum, about the same as a liter of water moving at 55 mph. Decreases in efficiency would yield corresponding decreases in momentum, with the best modern lasers working at 30% efficiency. So yes, lasers as powerful as those in eve would produce noticeable recoil.
I have to admit I looked at that and said to myself, "That seems a little weak."
Direct-fire artillery rifles have muzzle velocities of around 1-2000m/s small-caliber (say, 5" or smaller) weapons. To match a velocity of 1-2000m/s with that momentum, your payload is going to be one to two kilos max. Applying some focused but not-great googling, this tells me that this approximately matches the performance of an anti-tank gun, or maybe a naval destroyer or cruiser main armament at best. Those 200mm autocannons the Minmatar mount? Definitely bigger.
Of course, nobody actually requires the capacitor numbers to actually, y'know, *mean* anything. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
154
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Posted - 2014.09.24 21:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm totally cool with lazors having the recoil animation. Not like any of us aren't having a matching pelvic thrust every time those beams go off.... |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
375
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
anyone care to make a calculation on the momentum distance thrown of any ship using Projectile Artillery broadside... on say a BS hull, moving at speed at a 90 degree off vector... and if it would also spin the shim on it's CG due to placement of turrets. Look at all the Macks in local...impressive...very impressive...I see you have fashioned a new exhumer...much like you father's...your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen. |
Arrogus Advenient
The Machine. LLC
4
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Arrogus Advenient wrote: To expand upon this, a Medium Beam Laser uses 7.22 GJ of energy to fire. Assuming 100% efficiency, the resulting beam of light would carry roughly 24 kg m/s of momentum, about the same as a liter of water moving at 55 mph. Decreases in efficiency would yield corresponding decreases in momentum, with the best modern lasers working at 30% efficiency.
So yes, lasers as powerful as those in eve would produce noticeable recoil.
I have to admit I looked at that and said to myself, "That seems a little weak." Direct-fire artillery rifles have muzzle velocities of around 1-2000m/s small-caliber (say, 5" or smaller) weapons. To match a velocity of 1-2000m/s with that momentum, your payload is going to be one to two kilos max. Applying some focused but not-great googling, this tells me that this approximately matches the performance of an anti-tank gun, or maybe a naval destroyer or cruiser main armament at best. Those 200mm autocannons the Minmatar mount? Definitely bigger. Of course, nobody actually requires the capacitor numbers to actually, y'know, *mean* anything.
The momentum of a laser's fire is almost certainly much lower than that of any other weapon system in eve, but it's the energy of the beam that does the damage, not its momentum. |
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