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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:20:00 -
[1]
This may look like flamebait, but I will do my best not to push the thread that way. I will state the reasons I believe "instas" are an unintended and unfortunate game mechanic that ought to be removed (with some reasonable compromises for those dependent on them).
1. They are extremely convenient, and not having them means much longer travel times. Yet... if supposedly our nav computers can only get us to within 15km of a gate, why don't our super gee-whiz spaceships automatically warp to gate to begin with? 2. That's right. That's because warping instantly, from gate to gate, kills a lot of the peril, the risk, and yes, the FUN of playing EVE! 3. Pirates are forced to adapt, and do so by using sensor boosters (I already had a thread on those) and sniping anyone NOT using instas, thereby forcing even more insta use on all of us. 4. Pirates start using instas to get away, making it stupid and pointless to attack them except to chase them away. 5. Like all bad game mechanics in MMOs, if you don't use instas, you more or less suck. You'll be ganked at gate camps, and of course you'll take a long time to get anywhere, even if you survive. 6. Traditional (and intended) pirate implements such as scramblers are all but extinct for actual piracy. It's all about ganking anything that didn't insta away. 7. We're left with the mess we have now. A bunch of snipe and run, which, come on people, isn't really that fun for pirates or "carebears" compared to the game we had before instas.
So, I suggest that instas be done away with, a "warp navigation" skill be added to the skill list (with high SP cost), and maybe even compel people to take a little fire from pirates at lowsec gates, maybe even at close range (flame all you want, but sitting on your ass and plinking shuttles from 100+km is lame) with a simutaneous reduction of T2 ammo ranges and sensor booster effectiveness, and a range reduction on the sentry guns, as well, to compensate.
If you don't like the idea, let's discuss it. Offer something to the table, that is for the greater good for the EVE community. The only unwelcome comment is "omg if u dont liek it u maek insta noob."
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RichoDemus
Eve University The Big Blue
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:26:00 -
[2]
How about removing instas and instead letting the nav comp warp a little closer to the gate (5-10km) and enable certain ships (interdictors?) to shutdown warpgates for a short time? Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: RichoDemus How about removing instas and instead letting the nav comp warp a little closer to the gate (5-10km) and enable certain ships (interdictors?) to shutdown warpgates for a short time?
Interesting proposal.
However, the drawback is it adds new mechanics to the game (shutting down gates) that haven't been done before, thus, they'd need to be coded and more than likely would have exploiters abusing them before the bugs were worked out.
It might be wisest to simply remove bad code (bookmarks as they stand) and add in a few simple changes (range reduction across the board, from T2 ammo to sentry guns, so there's some actual FIGHTING instead of camp and run)
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Emsigma
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:33:00 -
[4]
I am so glad I made a new picture this morning to have ready for an occasion like this:
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:39:00 -
[5]
Har har.
The difference here is that I'd like to talk about this with everyone, without the usual "u suk" "NO U" exchange that never gets anywhere.
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:42:00 -
[6]
My solution would be this:
Create a disruption area around all gates and stations that kills bookmarks at 15km, killing instajumps.
Create a skill like "Warp Drive Calibration" that increases a ships warp accuracy by 3km each level, gaining instajump-like status at level 5.
Once instajumps become obsolete and are replaced by a simple skillbook, everyone deletes all their millions of bookmarks.
Let the new instajump skillbook take its course on TQ, listen to players complants, inputs, and idea changes about how to balance around the new mechanics, and rebuild things from there.
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Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:43:00 -
[7]
Oveur released a Dev Blog in late 2005 making rasing the same questions the OP has.
He asked in public for fixes to the insta problem, in 2005.
This Blog is no almost a year old and did not yield any meaningful answer.
I am afraid that i have to accept instas as a part of EvE gameplay. ________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
Oosel
Nightmare Holdings Armorum Unitas
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:45:00 -
[8]
why not have gate to gate warps.........even with instas now in 0.0 the dicters and bubbles pull you out of warp anyway.
not sure how you would work low sec though and a big part of piracy is currently happening there so you need a way for these guys to be able to ply their nasty ways there unless they themselves move out to 0.0
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:47:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Christopher Scott on 04/08/2006 12:50:16 Point being is that no matter what happens, CCP will not take away instajumps. They will not be removed or replaced with anything less effective that what we have now, or else the whining will be unbearable.
Everyone pretty much has instajumps everywhere at this point, it is a very rare occurence to see any remotely-valuable ship fly without them. We might as well give everyone an instajump skillbook, delete all these millions of damn bookmarks clogging the server, and then figure out how to balance things.
Edit: Saving low-sec areas. Maybe have a 5km minimum distance when skill-instajumping to an empire gate? Snipers only need two seconds to do their buisness, anyway.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:48:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 04/08/2006 12:49:37 I've said it before and I will say it again (if you want or not unless the mods stop me )
Instas are afaik a circumvention of the 15 km warp mechanic which was put there so that ship speed matters when traveling.
The solution should be surprisingly simple:
Make a 15 km no-warp bubble arround star gates, stations etc, thus removing instas. Every ship drops out of warp at this bubble no matter what. Boost hauler/barge tanking ability and/or give them the ability to fit proper weapons to compensate for the advantage pirates get from the no-warp bubbles. Alternatively, allow haulers/barges to warp further into the bubbles, like 15 km for war ships and 7km for haulers or such.
Explain in story by saying that warping is prohibited to close to big objects for safety reasons. --
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:49:00 -
[11]
Instas are on their way out, along with local chat. PvP in EVE has stagnated to the point of pure boredom because of instas and local. It has been discussed a thousand times why instas suck and should be outright removed, and every time we had one side crying GRIEFERS! GANKERS! THE END IS NIGH! while being unable to come up with any coherant argument while the other side presented truckloads of reasons for their removal. I'm guessing this thread will be the same.
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Himo Amasacia
Minmatar Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2006.08.04 12:56:00 -
[12]
If the instajump skill was inserted pirates would giggle for a week.. then start howling that they 'cant get any kills waaaah' again. It would 'solve' nothing, assuming there is a problem in the first place.
Point. Any battleship can roast a hauler in 2 volleys max despite what defence you slap on it. A haulers only defence is speed.. and uh they are reeeeeeeeleeeeeee slow...
In 0.0 there is a counter to instas called warp disruption bubbles. Can I suggest you go to 0.o if you find them too much of a headache?
The other problem is that bookmarks are a game mechanic used to bring people to missions and wherever. And people leave cans in savespots to save ore in areas with no refining stations, so how are they supposed to get back to them? Probes use a bookmard system too. They would have to remain in some form.
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Xorus
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:05:00 -
[13]
Thread cleaned, please do not post links to inappropriate images on these forums. ---
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Himo Amasacia If the instajump skill was inserted pirates would giggle for a week.. then start howling that they 'cant get any kills waaaah' again. It would 'solve' nothing, assuming there is a problem in the first place.
Point. Any battleship can roast a hauler in 2 volleys max despite what defence you slap on it. A haulers only defence is speed.. and uh they are reeeeeeeeleeeeeee slow...
In 0.0 there is a counter to instas called warp disruption bubbles. Can I suggest you go to 0.o if you find them too much of a headache?
The other problem is that bookmarks are a game mechanic used to bring people to missions and wherever. And people leave cans in savespots to save ore in areas with no refining stations, so how are they supposed to get back to them? Probes use a bookmard system too. They would have to remain in some form.
Cut the condescending crap. Of course I play in 0.0. What other use would I have for my corp and alliance?
What's sad is that 0.0 is usually a lot SAFER than .4, but that's another story.
Back on topic, and please, no flamebait.
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Peachy Peachpants on 04/08/2006 13:09:32
Quote: If the instajump skill was inserted pirates would giggle for a week.. then start howling that they 'cant get any kills waaaah' again. It would 'solve' nothing, assuming there is a problem in the first place.
I know that it might look different from Jita, but it's not only pirates who shoot people at gates. Alliances, corporations, individuals and pretty much everyone does so. Putting pirate in your non-argument means nothing.
Second point; the said people use instajumps also to escape potential threats and travel without being harmed. The reason that a pirate is camping a gate somewhere is mainly because no one could stop him from getting there via instajumps, and no one can keep him trapped there because he can just instajump out.
Waaaah! PIRATES! Waaah! Invalid Argument. Fail.
Quote: Point. Any battleship can roast a hauler in 2 volleys max despite what defence you slap on it. A haulers only defence is speed.. and uh they are reeeeeeeeleeeeeee slow...
Wrong. I've seen lots of haulers go through 0.0 without being roasted by the said battleships! You know why? Because an idiots only defence is speed, or rather instajumps. A haulers defences are local, the map, escorts, different routes, a good tank instead of cargo expanders, a good scout... the list goes on. These are the things that should be the difference between a GOOD hauler and a DEAD hauler. Unfortunately with instajumps, this is not the case. It takes a minimum IQ of 20, and a maximum effort of 2 seconds to use an instajump.
Again, your argument fails.
Quote: In 0.0 there is a counter to instas called warp disruption bubbles. Can I suggest you go to 0.o if you find them too much of a headache?
What about Empire, where the majority of the population resides? Bubbles don't work in Empire. What is the counter to instajumps there? Answer: There is no counter. Fail again.
Also, an instajump;
Costs nothing. Takes no cargo. Does not require skills. Does not require manufacturing. Does not require a blueprint. Can be copied infinitely. Does not fail. Cannot be destroyed.
Yeah. Bubbles are definately the counter to instajumps.
Oh dear, fail again.
Quote: The other problem is that bookmarks are a game mechanic used to bring people to missions and wherever. And people leave cans in savespots to save ore in areas with no refining stations, so how are they supposed to get back to them? Probes use a bookmard system too. They would have to remain in some form.
No one says remove bookmarks. Instajumps are the problem. There are many ways to remove instajumps while preserving the original intented use of bookmarks.
So yeah, now that we have that out of the way, do you have any arguments with substance?
EDIT: Forgot zi boldness!
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Ismern
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ismern on 04/08/2006 13:14:43 Solution to instas:
1)Allow BMs to be made. (This allows people to still make BMs for safespots, POSs, and asteroids.) 2)Allow a player to warp directly to an object (i.e. gate, station,etc.). This still allows for faster travel, but will free up 99% of all BMs in the game that are tying up the server. 3)Pirates who want to camp . . . two words: Warp Bubble. Empire systems aren't meant to be camped, and many 0.0 alliances don't carry instas for empire. Low sec ganking is also outside of its intentions. The sentry guns are there for a reason, but any battleship can tank them and mute their purpose.
Problem solved.
----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken.
Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left. |
Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:11:00 -
[17]
Quote: Pirates who want to camp . . . two words: Warp Bubble.
Two words: Empire space.
Try again :|
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Ismern
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:16:00 -
[18]
EDITED: Read above. :)
----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken.
Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left. |
Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:20:00 -
[19]
Quote: Empire systems aren't meant to be camped and many 0.0 alliances don't carry instas for empire. Low sec ganking is also outside of its intentions. The sentry guns are there for a reason, but any battleship can tank them and mute their purpose.
The fact that people can tank sentries and have been doing so for years seems to show that they are meant to be camped.
Put that aside; what about corp wars? Are you not "meant" to camp a gate in a corp war either?
And you say that low sec ganking is outside of its intentions (Intentions of what exactly?). How do you know so much about CCP's intentions and meanings, and how come your interpretions conflict with how the game has been working for over three years? No Dev has ever said that Empire systems aren't "meant" to be camped, and no dev has ever said that low sec ganks aren't intentional. It's all been part of the game for a long time.
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Jobie Thickburger
Gallente Miner Guide to the Galaxy
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:28:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants
Quote: Pirates who want to camp . . . two words: Warp Bubble.
Two words: Empire space.
Try again :|
Then camp the other side of the gate
1) anything that is really worth killing should be able to be sniped before it warps out, I know my Itty V, even with 5 nanos, takes about 5 seconds to align to warp, a fitted cruiser would take about 5-10...
2) How about actually Trying to pirate, go belt hunting rather than sit at a gate and gripe about not being able to get any kills b/c of instas.
Instas are there, Like it or not. Your given 2 choices to deal with them, Adapt and Overcome, Or whine about it on the forums.
Also, With a propperly fitted Scorpion, you can tank the guns (just jettison out a jetcan of cap boosters for your capacator) and pound away at the jumpgate with torps. nice 10km range there will shoot down most things.
CEO - MGTTG
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Evelyn Lavi
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:34:00 -
[21]
"deal with it?" Sigh.
The most tiresome, unproductive, and ignorant words ever dealt out in a forum thread.
First off, no one will ever, ever "deal with it" as the unimaginative poster suggests.
Second, it just irritates people. I guess that's the idea, right?
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Christopher Scott
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jobie Thickburger
1) anything that is really worth killing should be able to be sniped before it warps out, I know my Itty V, even with 5 nanos, takes about 5 seconds to align to warp, a fitted cruiser would take about 5-10...
Just pointing out a little flaw.. you can cloak, align for warp, uncloak, and then warp. It bypasses that whole "I'm vulnerable while trying to warp" thing you were talking about.
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wierchas noobhunter
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:34:00 -
[23]
instas are fine !
join col ! now |
Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:41:00 -
[24]
Quote: Then camp the other side of the gate
1) anything that is really worth killing should be able to be sniped before it warps out, I know my Itty V, even with 5 nanos, takes about 5 seconds to align to warp, a fitted cruiser would take about 5-10...
2) How about actually Trying to pirate, go belt hunting rather than sit at a gate and gripe about not being able to get any kills b/c of instas.
Instas are there, Like it or not. Your given 2 choices to deal with them, Adapt and Overcome, Or whine about it on the forums.
Your argument fails on several points.
Firstly, combat in empire space is not only piracy. There are people who HUNT pirates. There are people who have CORP WARS. Instas are used in both, and the fact that you cannot deploy bubbles is a crippling disadvantage in empire. Pirates escape the people who hunt them with instas. They travel to different places to camp and kill. But you are deliberately ignoring that fact because your only non-existant point is BOO HOO PIRATES :(
And surely if bubbles were a good counter to instas, then instas shouldn't work in empire, no? Otherwise THERE IS NO COUNTER, half-arsed or otherwise, in empire for instas.
Secondly, you say adapt and overcome. That would be valid if instajumps were a solid piece of game mechanics implemented by CCP with reason and purpose. The fact is, they are not. They are a loophole discovered by players, and were not designed in any way by CCP. The only thing to adapt and overcome here is a faulty loophole being mass-abused and throwing the game off-balance.
Quote: Also, With a propperly fitted Scorpion, you can tank the guns (just jettison out a jetcan of cap boosters for your capacator) and pound away at the jumpgate with torps. nice 10km range there will shoot down most things.
Yes because torpedoes do splash damage. Not.
If you mean smartbombs, why do we have to pervert game-play in order to handle a perversion of game mechanics in the first place?
You lose.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:43:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/08/2006 13:44:29 Not another mandantory skill, please. It's just a time-sink for everyone, who needs to travel.
For an older player it would mean that he had to delay his current goals a bit to train that skill to 4 in one rush. For the new player it would be even worse, since they already don't know what to train first. They have already a huge pile of important skills that they need to learn.
So in the end all vets have that skill and only newbies can get ganked more easily at a gate. Imho useless timesink, especially where is the point, if you can circumvent the drawbacks of eve-without-instas just by investing a few days/weeks to train that skill ?
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Ismern
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.04 13:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants
Quote: Empire systems aren't meant to be camped and many 0.0 alliances don't carry instas for empire. Low sec ganking is also outside of its intentions. The sentry guns are there for a reason, but any battleship can tank them and mute their purpose.
The fact that people can tank sentries and have been doing so for years seems to show that they are meant to be camped.
Put that aside; what about corp wars? Are you not "meant" to camp a gate in a corp war either?
And you say that low sec ganking is outside of its intentions (Intentions of what exactly?). How do you know so much about CCP's intentions and meanings, and how come your interpretions conflict with how the game has been working for over three years? No Dev has ever said that Empire systems aren't "meant" to be camped, and no dev has ever said that low sec ganks aren't intentional. It's all been part of the game for a long time.
The same could be said of instas . . .
But yes, you can camp the other side of the gate. Interceptors have extremely fast locking times, and the only thing that cannot be locked before it warps out are interceptors, shuttles, and covert ops ships. Every smart gate camp I've seen that doesn't use bubbles have an interceptor or two for tackling and then firepower (who will also carry a scrambler or disruptor in case the interceptor gets killed) and this is generally effective.
----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken.
Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left. |
Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:00:00 -
[27]
Quote: The same could be said of instas . . .
Actually it has been stated that instas were never intended, and the devs do recognize them as a problem that needs to be fixed.
Quote: But yes, you can camp the other side of the gate. Interceptors have extremely fast locking times, and the only thing that cannot be locked before it warps out are interceptors, shuttles, and covert ops ships. Every smart gate camp I've seen that doesn't use bubbles have an interceptor or two for tackling and then firepower (who will also carry a scrambler or disruptor in case the interceptor gets killed) and this is generally effective.
I am aware of the ways to catch people using instajumps, and use them.
This only half the problem with instajumps. Instas also provide incredibly fast travel, allowing entire alliance fleets to go on a cross-region rampage (see BoB and their various raids) within hours. It allows battleships do go only marginally slower than interceptors WITH combat setups. Does that make sense? Can you honestly say that this does not dumb down EVE and take away from what it is, in favor of a few simple-minded carebears who cannot grasp the bigger picture and go around screaming GRIEFERS! PIRATES! (most of whom use and benefit from instajumps far more than themselves) every time their precious instajumps are threatened?
And finally; how come we have to spend money and time on making, transporting and deploying bubbles, while risking their destruction, when a simple shift-drag and right click -which was never intended- is what we're aiming to counter? Is that balanced? Of course not; the devs never designed instajumps, and thus the so-called "counter" they popped into the game is flawed, largely useless (see: empire) and impractical in any situation but that of a static and fortified camp (see: s-u).
It simply makes no sense.
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Aralin
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:01:00 -
[28]
Quote: Make a 15 km no-warp bubble arround star gates, stations etc, thus removing instas. Every ship drops out of warp at this bubble no matter what. Boost hauler/barge tanking ability and/or give them the ability to fit proper weapons to compensate for the advantage pirates get from the no-warp bubbles. Alternatively, allow haulers/barges to warp further into the bubbles, like 15 km for war ships and 7km for haulers or such.
Its not a bad idea, but if instas are nerfed at all, in any way, I want the ability to warp to things on my scanner, for example that sniping battleship sitting above the gate just out of a sentry range.
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Zeknichov
Amarr Black Avatar
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:12:00 -
[29]
Just make it take 10 seconds after warping to use a jumpgate. Still gives instas a use although they are no longer instas but rather 10secondAhs.
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2006.08.04 14:18:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 04/08/2006 14:18:26
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants
Quote: The same could be said of instas . . .
Actually it has been stated that instas were never intended, and the devs do recognize them as a problem that needs to be fixed.
Quote: But yes, you can camp the other side of the gate. Interceptors have extremely fast locking times, and the only thing that cannot be locked before it warps out are interceptors, shuttles, and covert ops ships. Every smart gate camp I've seen that doesn't use bubbles have an interceptor or two for tackling and then firepower (who will also carry a scrambler or disruptor in case the interceptor gets killed) and this is generally effective.
I am aware of the ways to catch people using instajumps, and use them.
This only half the problem with instajumps. Instas also provide incredibly fast travel, allowing entire alliance fleets to go on a cross-region rampage (see BoB and their various raids) within hours. It allows battleships do go only marginally slower than interceptors WITH combat setups. Does that make sense? Can you honestly say that this does not dumb down EVE and take away from what it is, in favor of a few simple-minded carebears who cannot grasp the bigger picture and go around screaming GRIEFERS! PIRATES! (most of whom use and benefit from instajumps far more than themselves) every time their precious instajumps are threatened?
And finally; how come we have to spend money and time on making, transporting and deploying bubbles, while risking their destruction, when a simple shift-drag and right click -which was never intended- is what we're aiming to counter? Is that balanced? Of course not; the devs never designed instajumps, and thus the so-called "counter" they popped into the game is flawed, largely useless (see: empire) and impractical in any situation but that of a static and fortified camp (see: s-u).
It simply makes no sense.
QFT
ccp or more like Oveur (cuz he is our last best hope) has to grab his balls and get this through ...
it simply is mind boggling ridicilous
Greetings Grim |
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