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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Luigi Thirty
Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:54:00 -
[61]
As far as I can see, the only argument against instas is "OMG IT MAKE HARD 2 PIRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:55:00 -
[62]
Quote: You'll probably have to go further. You'll have far, far fewer targets entering lowsec without the instas.
...or more people will enter low sec and grab a piece of the pie knowing that BoB or whatever alliance/corp/pirates won't/can't decide to stomp on their face at 10 minutes notice when they're bored and looking for a roadtrip.
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Andicuri Vas
Gallente Celtic Anarchy
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:55:00 -
[63]
I am all for nerfing instas, but when that happens, how about a 50% damage resistance increase to all ships?
Who wouldn't like to see skirmishes protracted just a bit?
PvP'rs would get more time doing what they love and carebears would have more of a chance to get to, and through the gate.
The upside: 1) Longer battles 2) Introducing the thrill of EVE PvP to carebears when there is ample time to asess what is happening to you and make a decision. ( Loss of assets might not be so horrific to people if there is more than POP POP POD involved) PvP is still thrilling.....even if you lose! 3) Players will return to using brain activity whilst traveling and fitting.....Using escorts while hauling BPO's for example, or putting to good use, logistics ships
The downside: 1) Killboard activity will slow dramatically 2) Much less mobility, which may not be a bad thing as people and groups are more likely to stay put and develop the region that they are in...market / infrastructure etc..
Darts?
A V
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Lexha
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:56:00 -
[64]
Well, when the pirate stop using their cheap tactic, like suicide kill in high sec, maybe i'll stop using instat. Until then deal with it....
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Reithan
Caldari Dark Planet Ventures
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:56:00 -
[65]
Ok, the 3 issues, as stated (apparently by Oveur):
1. Instas are taking WAY too much server storage space and lagging things up, and they suck by taking PVP out of the game. 2. We need more vulnerability at gates 3. We need to maintain fast travel times (or even FASTER travel times)
Possible solution: 1. Add 0km warping, either trough, base option, skill, module or whatever. Add it. 2. Make any bookmark not a BM to a specific point in space, but just to a specific grid. When you warp to a BM you simply warp to the default warp-in for that grid. This eliminates the usefullness of existing Insta BMs. 3. Make Warp Bubbles and Distruptors useable in ANY sec space.
Thinking about it, the only reason bubbles can't be used outside 0.0 is 0.1-0.4 space. If you use a bubble in 0.5+, well, if you shoot someone in the bubble, you're STILL concordokened...
And 0.4-0.1 is still supposed to be at-risk territory, so now it'll just be a little MORE at-risk.
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Father Weebles
Lost Dawn Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.04 15:58:00 -
[66]
theres a problem with instas?
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Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:02:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants Funny how you couldn't come up with a single-counter point to any of my arguments.
Funny how you're belligerent and argumentative. Your premise is ridiculous on the face of it. I'm not bored, and neither are any of the people I play with (allies and competitors alike), and instas and local don't bug us at all.
If I don't agree with your premise, there's nothing to argue about, is there?
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Father Weebles
Lost Dawn Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:07:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Father Weebles on 04/08/2006 16:07:22
Originally by: Reithan Ok, the 3 issues, as stated (apparently by Oveur):
1. Instas are taking WAY too much server storage space and lagging things up, and they suck by taking PVP out of the game. 2. We need more vulnerability at gates 3. We need to maintain fast travel times (or even FASTER travel times)
Possible solution: 1. Add 0km warping, either trough, base option, skill, module or whatever. Add it. 2. Make any bookmark not a BM to a specific point in space, but just to a specific grid. When you warp to a BM you simply warp to the default warp-in for that grid. This eliminates the usefullness of existing Insta BMs. 3. Make Warp Bubbles and Distruptors useable in ANY sec space.
Thinking about it, the only reason bubbles can't be used outside 0.0 is 0.1-0.4 space. If you use a bubble in 0.5+, well, if you shoot someone in the bubble, you're STILL concordokened...
And 0.4-0.1 is still supposed to be at-risk territory, so now it'll just be a little MORE at-risk.
have u ever tried scrambling people who uncloak?
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:13:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Peachy Peachpants on 04/08/2006 16:13:40
Quote:
Funny how you're belligerent and argumentative. Your premise is ridiculous on the face of it. I'm not bored, and neither are any of the people I play with (allies and competitors alike), and instas and local don't bug us at all.
If I don't agree with your premise, there's nothing to argue about, is there?
A single premise does not constitute an argument, and excuse my belligerence if I do not believe that your mighty alliance and it's rivals are not a prime example for mainstream PvP in EVE.
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:20:00 -
[70]
Instas break the game quite badly, why do you think one can't set warp to distance to 0 instead of 15 ? It's because your ship's speed is actually supposed to matter when it comes to your safety in low sec. The devs didn't expect people to exploit it and haven't done much about it (other than interdictors and mobile warp disruptors which are pretty much just bandaids).
As things stand your velocity in a travel setup is for the most part an insignificant factor, agility matters quite a lot as do WCS and your bookmarks.
It's way way way too easy to avoid a fight as things stand, and with cloaks exacerbating the problem we see situations where it's extremely hard to stop an experienced player who knows what he's doing, even if you have 20-30 people hunting / gate camping just for him.
It's unbalanced. Instas suck.
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Leon Johnstone
Gallente CAD Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:25:00 -
[71]
I'm not entirely sure if this has been posted already but could a part solution be limiting the number of BMs that a person can have. This would at least give CCP time to find a real solution while taking pressure off the server. People would have to make a choice of where they want instas for and give the advantage to the defender in wars as they are more likely to have the BMs for that area.
What do you think?
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Fistandilus
Caldari Killson Corp HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:28:00 -
[72]
I am not a computer expert in any way so forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the problem with insta's? If it is that the BM's take up space on the server then why not make it so BM's are stored on your PC? Or am I missing something here?
If they HAVE to be "fixed/removed", how about these ideas? 1) Autopilot-Warp to 15km----NO CHANGE 2) Click to warp-Warp to 0km----FASTER TRAVEL TIME 3) Allow Warp Bubbles and Interdiction Spheres to be used in .1 to .4 systems----INCREASE VULNERABILITY LEAVING GATES 4) Remove Sentry Guns from .1 to .4 Gates----INCREASE VULNERABILITY ARRIVING AND LEAVING GATES 5) Allow the use of Interdiction Spheres, but not Warp Bubbles (I view Interdiction Spheres as being more temporary than Warp Bubbles), in some sort of limited fashion in .5 to .7 systems (e.g. Sentry Guns fire but CONCORD does not respond). If you fire on a ship that your Corp is not Wardecced on THEN CONCORD shows up.----SAME AS #4 ABOVE
Out of curiosity, don't Warp Bubbles "Pull" you out of warp? If not, then make them do so.----THIS WILL INCREASE VULNERABILITY ARRIVING AT GATES.
Oh, and as a final note, to all you people that can't respond to posts without being rude, insulting or getting defensive, GROW UP, THIS IS JUST A GAME.
Killson Corp HUZZAH Federation
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Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants excuse my belligerence if I do not believe that your mighty alliance and it's rivals are not a prime example for mainstream PvP in EVE.
I don't believe that's why you're being belligerent, but nice attempt at changing the subject.
You want instas changed because you're 'bored'. Stop trying to get the game changed to suit your selfish needs, and learn to play within the existing boundaries of the sandbox. Other people are having fun, why don't you try to follow their example?
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:43:00 -
[74]
Quote:
You want instas changed because you're 'bored'. Stop trying to get the game changed to suit your selfish needs, and learn to play within the existing boundaries of the sandbox. Other people are having fun, why don't you try to follow their example?
Wrong. I want instas changed because they ruin the game. You might not be capable of thinking "outside" the sandbox and you might be content with just having tea-parties with your jolly band of roleplayers, but I prefer to argue for things that I believe will make this game better all around, for all the reasons stated in this thread and all the threads before it, and for all the same reasons that you choose to ignore because you want to believe that my only reason is boredom.
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Azrael Bierce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants ...or more people will enter low sec and grab a piece of the pie knowing that BoB or whatever alliance/corp/pirates won't/can't decide to stomp on their face at 10 minutes notice when they're bored and looking for a roadtrip.
This won't affect people like BoB. They'll just have an interceptor one jump ahead flying 15k past the gate for the gang to warp to.
The big alliances have the logistics to make the lack of instas issue a non issue.
Instas facilitate the small group/loners treks into lowsec.
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:45:00 -
[76]
Quote: This won't affect people like BoB. They'll just have an interceptor one jump ahead flying 15k past the gate for the gang to warp to.
I believe that would be part of "removing instajumps" in the first place.
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Axle skye
Caldari Ruby Sunrise
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:47:00 -
[77]
It's funny i've been playing this game for nearly three years, and have never used insta's. I could not make them to save my life either. Yes I have PVP'ed along time ago in a torp firing ECM Osprey back then, I lived in 0.0 for about 10 months. Never have I been ganked at a gate. ever. I have had people try. When I have to travel long distances I fit to travel. when I have to fight I fit to fight. there is a cake-and-eat-it-too attitude in this game and players seem to forget that there are supposed to be compramizes to everything, insta's to compramize anything. I like Avon's suggestion about a module. make it require space ship command 1 allow the cloeset you can warp to a gate or station or anything @ space ship command 5km.
As for the serve side issue it is not really an issue of space it is an issue of indexes. every BM as a unique number attatched to it. So...with people having 1000's of bms trying to look up each unique coordinate everytime you use one requires a lot of DB read time. and it is a problem that cannot be coded away, Gigahertzed away, or storage arrayed-away. meh, 2isk from an olde timer.
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Azrael Bierce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants I believe that would be part of "removing instajumps" in the first place.
So basically what you want is a world where you can warp to nothing that isnt
a) an agent mission or b) a celestial object
Correct? Just so I understand the argument.
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:52:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Azrael Bierce
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants I believe that would be part of "removing instajumps" in the first place.
So basically what you want is a world where you can warp to nothing that isnt
a) an agent mission or b) a celestial object
Correct? Just so I understand the argument.
More like, no warping closer than 15km to a gate, no matter what, I'd guess.
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Lt Hole
Caldari Tyrell Corp Curse Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.04 16:58:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants
Wrong. I want instas changed because they ruin the game.
I wake up every day and look up into the sky and scream:
"WHY INSTAS? WHY? WHY? EVE WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE FUN WITHOUT THEM!"
Then I log in, use my instas to get to where I want to PvP and start playing.
Instas don't bother me. Fat ships that warp away from jump-in points like interceptors bothers me.
If you're nervous, smacktalk in local.
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:00:00 -
[81]
Quote:
I wake up every day and look up into the sky and scream:
"WHY INSTAS? WHY? WHY? EVE WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE FUN WITHOUT THEM!"
I wake up in the middle of the night and cry because of instajumps :|
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:13:00 -
[82]
"warp a little closer to the gate"
Useless. If they're sitting on the gate, or sniping, then comming out a little closer, especially with loading time/lag and landing outside insta range usually means death even for the fastest ships in Eve.
"...skill"
Becomes mandatory before any serious corp will touch you for lowsec/0.0 work, and it lets you warp EVERYWHERE at 0km.
"...module"
Is absolutely mandatory for any serious 0.0 or even lowsec travel, except for 200km pirate snipers - you might as well remove the slots from the ships, allow 0km warps and nerf the pirate snipers.
It is no sort of reasonable soloution to selectively nerf ships to do basic, CORE game functions. This is no sort of comprimise, it's full-on nerf to every ship in the game and drastically unbalances it.
If the new slots have to be used for it, then I'd rather NOT have the new slots and just give people 0km warps. Same difference, because they are absolutely and totally ALLWAYS mandatory. (Warps to Coverts and so on MUST behave in the same way - NO breaching of the 15km area arround gates without these!)
"Instas destroy the speed difference..."
Untrue. When this was statted out, the actual percentage differences in travel time for insta vs no insta travel remained remarkably consistant. A smaller, more agile ship DOES travel quicker, and the claim that less agile ships somehow get an unfair advantage from them is completely incorrect - it MATTERS! (And agility and ship speed are interconnected heavily)
"Ban 90% of the playerbase..."
Hi Reithan!
"Make you make your own instas..."
No, this isn't a "soloution", it's an nerf attempt and forces people to spend week and weeks getting instas for the region before they can be effective. Moreover, you CAN'T get them for where they are truly needed, hence nullifying instas as a factor and making this very little different in practice from "remove instas outright"
"Warp to a ship..."
No. One rule, ONE RULE. You can't have people warping with a ship like this, if instas are out for one then they must be out for all. This basically requires you to use an alt for any sort of travel, and some of us would prefer NOT to pay for a "buffbot" travel account!
I'm not for passive soloutions to the problem. People overlook at there are *2* sides to the issue, and active soloutions are perfectly viable. Add new bubbles you can anchor on a gate which throw your warp off if you warp out of them, so you can't insta gate to gate when one's there. Make new bubbles which only affect war enemies you can anchor in lowsec, and so on.
And move to limited 0km warps or CorpBM's, they're not a true "fix", but will limit the load and so on.
Removing local is a diferent rant, but basically again nobody has begun to address the many issues arround it with more than "cry more newb". And CCP themselves have noted it's not going to chaneg soon and could break the game if changed poorly.
Andicuri Vas, I hope that was sarcasm. More people logging, more people running back to the gates, uberNos, useless to botehr with smaller ships or anything that's not a gank setup and so on are the inevitable results. And fleet battles with even LESS kills... POSwars are allready slow and static enough.
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Tuang Pao
The-Wrath
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:26:00 -
[83]
The real problem with instas is that the developers will not make the hard decisions required to solve the problem.
Instead they allow their use while burdening us with their punishing bookmark copy method.
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Malena Panic
Gallente Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:31:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Peachy Peachpants PvP in EVE has stagnated to the point of pure boredom because of instas and local.
Why did you write this as your first contribution to the thread? More importantly, why did you discard this argument so abruptly once it was challenged? One wonders how often you might be willing to shift your position in order to sustain your indefensible position.
There is no stagnation, there is only creative adaptation. For some people at least. For others, there's always desperate pleas to change core game mechanics I guess. At least it's a respite from the crushing boredom of actually playing Eve.
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:33:00 -
[85]
1) remove bookmarks completely 2) allow new bookmarks to be made only attached to an (anchored) object. 2b) removal of the object means removal of the bookmarks attached to it. (so you can bookmark a can while mining to get insta on the roids for hauling, you can anchor secure cans in deep space and leave ships there temporarily, you cna bookmark interesting objects in space,all the valid uses of bookmarks will remain possible) 3) re-introduce the come out of warp at full speed feature that was removed because of dual mwds. Because of the initial speed moving to the gate will be a lot faster now, and it will make the difference between slow and fast ships much more pronounced 4) do not allow warp at > 150% max speed. This way the one mwd or ab burst and then instawarp will be gone. 5) a ship will accellerate at normal accelleration up till 130% of max speed. Once above 100% the warp cannot be cancelled unless the ship is scrambled. This will prevent people who are aligned to instant warp, they will still need to accellerate the extra 30% before they are gone. 6) warp to a bookmark or gang member takes extra time to align. gate to gate (planet, moon, station,...) warps have been pre-calculated and stored in each ship on production, warping to a bookmark requires fresh calculations and take time. 7) sensor boosters/tracking computers and the other dual bonus modules are changed into a bonus/penalty module. This fixes the inbalance where long range ships also lock a lot faster than short range ships and allows for the current silly gatecamping. 8) explain to newbies how to slingshot when doing an escort of slower indies (with the extra alignment time to warp to pilot or bookmark it does not reduce the risk, only moves it from one gate to another, it is up to the escort to decide at which side the risk should be taken)
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Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:37:00 -
[86]
Quote: Why did you write this as your first contribution to the thread? More importantly, why did you discard this argument so abruptly once it was challenged? One wonders how often you might be willing to shift your position in order to sustain your indefensible position.
There is no stagnation, there is only creative adaptation. For some people at least. For others, there's always desperate pleas to change core game mechanics I guess. At least it's a respite from the crushing boredom of actually playing Eve.
A single premise makes an argument? No wait. It doesn't. The only indefensible position here is your straw man, and pathetic attempts to derail. NO DICE.
There is stagnation. Instas aren't a "core game mechanic". They are a problem, as acknowledged by the dev team. So what are you arguing for again? The fact that you're having oh so much fun! or that everyone should just shut up and "play in the sandbox" and not give any feedback as to how the game could be improved? Yeah great argument there Sandy. Now try again.
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Rosenkranz
Caldari The Aussie Connection Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.04 17:48:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Christopher Scott My solution would be this:
Create a disruption area around all gates and stations that kills bookmarks at 15km, killing instajumps.
Create a skill like "Warp Drive Calibration" that increases a ships warp accuracy by 3km each level, gaining instajump-like status at level 5.
Once instajumps become obsolete and are replaced by a simple skillbook, everyone deletes all their millions of bookmarks.
Let the new instajump skillbook take its course on TQ, listen to players complants, inputs, and idea changes about how to balance around the new mechanics, and rebuild things from there.
I agree, though I'd take this just a small step farther.
I'd make warp drive operation get you to 5km at level 5 and add the advanced skill to get you the rest of the way to 0km at level 5.
This way, practically everybody would be half way there already having warp drive operation at level 4. A bit more effort could chop that in half again getting the advanced skill to 2 or 3. With the really hard core users going for the 0km warp accuracy at level 5. ----------------- "Its never just a game when you're winning." - George Carlin |
Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.08.04 18:00:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 04/08/2006 18:04:28 "Instas are on their way out, along with local chat. PvP in EVE has stagnated to the point of pure boredom because of instas and local. It has been discussed a thousand times why instas suck and should be outright removed, and every time we had one side crying GRIEFERS! GANKERS! THE END IS NIGH! while being unable to come up with any coherant argument while the other side presented truckloads of reasons for their removal. I'm guessing this thread will be the same."
HAHAHA ya right. Removing insta's and local just makes it even easier for gankers to gank, and gate campers to gank. Man how easy do you want it? You talk nothing of pvp you only talk of ganking. Same old typical gate campers wanting even EASIER mode are the only people who think ships should have to fly to a gate from 15 km out. Remove insta's and local and you END 0.0 for ooooooo 90% of EVE and then you truly will see the stagnation of eve.
Attackers just have WAY to big of an advantage in EVE to not have insta's and local. You convince CCP to put the attacker/hunter at a disadvantage or at best even odds and then changing insta's and local might make sense until then it is stupid to suggest otherwise.
Peachy your a joke and your entire set of posts here are nothing more than a big fat carebear pirate whine, here is a tissue go cry to mommy.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.08.04 18:05:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 04/08/2006 18:08:34
Have constellation bookmarks readily available as agent offers, with the downside of them having an expiration date, where stellar objects are no longer aligned right for them to be useful.
That way you can still have some good marks without being Zorro in space.
Looking For Ventrilo Hosting |
Peachy Peachpants
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Posted - 2006.08.04 18:05:00 -
[90]
Quote: HAHAHA ya right. Removing insta's and local just makes it even easier for gankers to gank, and gate campers to gank. Man how easy do you want it? You talk nothing of pvp you only talk of ganking. Same old typical gate campers wanting even EASIER mode are the only people who think ships should have to fly to a gate from 15 km out. Remove insta's and local and you END 0.0 for ooooooo 90% of EVE and then you truly will see the stagnation of eve.
Attackers just have WAY to big of an advantage in EVE to not have insta's and local. You convince CCP to put the attacker/hunter at a disadvantage or at best even odds and then changing insta's and local might make sense until then it is stupid to suggest otherwise.
Haha! Yeah I want more people to gank and kill! You caught me sherlock congratulations! YARRR! How could I ever have hoped to get past you in the first place!
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