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Aeaea
XanoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.04 23:16:00 -
[1]
Tech II Sniper Ammo is in the opinion of many in the community broken, I myself see it as broken, so I decided to run the math and try to come up with a mathematical explanation to support the ranting that I'm going to post later in this thread. Obviously this math doesn't show everything, and there may be mistakes, but I tried to make this as accurate and fair as possible.
Capacitor not taken into account for obvious reasons.
The Baseline : Tech II Shortrange Ammo
I started comparing between ammo that does the same baseline damage to see how much of a Bonus Tech II Ammo gives in what is accepted as balanced ammo types.
Scorch vs Ultraviolet
Damage : 22.2% Bonus
Range : 71.4% Bonus
Tracking : -25% Bonus
Raw Bonues : 67%
Null vs Thorium
Damage : 22% Bonus
Range : 42.8% Bonus
Falloff : 25% Bonus
Raw Bonuses : 117%
Barrage vs Titanium Sabot
Damage : 22% Bonus
Range : 14.3% Bonus
Falloff : 50% Bonus
Raw Bonuses : 109%
Analysis Thus Far: Everything looks fairly balanced, the Minmatar Range hit is really more of less insignificant as AC range is tiny. Null does seem to be the Tech II ammo with the most bonuses, Scorch seems to be the least boosted, but we have to remember that Amarr have the best frigate gun range off the bat.
Average of Raw Bonuses: 97%
The Problem : Tech II Sniper Ammo
I am not factoring in tracking, in my Tracking Guide computations a Thorax (Sig Radius : 140, Maximum Speed : 225m/s) without any propulsion modules approaching at a 45 degree angle has almost a 80% chance of hitting at an optimal range (Megabeam + Aurora) without any other modules. Obviously "true" sniper setups at distance will be able to hit even better. Tracking is not an issue when shooting anything bigger then an Frigate as a Sniper. (At Sniping Range)
Aurora vs Radio
Damage : 80% Bonus
Range : 25% Bonus
Raw Bonus : 125%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Racial]:34.7%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Average]:14%
Spike vs Iron
Damage : 80% Bonus
Range : 25% Bonus
Raw Bonus : 125%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Racial]:3.68%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Average]:14%
Tremor vs Carbonized Lead
Damage : 50% Bonus
Range : 25% Bonus
Raw Bonus : 87.5%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Racial]:-11.4%
Advantage Over Shortrange [Average]:-5%
Average of Raw Bonuses OVER Shortrange Ammo: 7.66%
The Issues with Tech II Sniper Ammo
On Average Tech II Sniper ammo gives 7.66% more bonuses then Tech II short range ammo (Scorch, Null, Barrage). In a game where people spend weeks training for that last 1% of extra damage, this isn't something minor.
Tech II Sniper Ammo greatly separates the gap between Tech I and Tech II weapons. Tech II not only gives you up to a 10% specialization damage bonus, but the addition of unbalanced Tech II Sniper Ammo spreads that.
Tech II Sniper Ammo gives tremendous range bonuses. With an optimal of 100km, an extra 40KM, while allowing for vastly greater damage over Tech I sniper ammo.
My Proposal
Make all Tech II Sniper ammo give 60% range bonues, the same as Tech I. This still allows for the 80% damage bonus on Amarr/Gallente and the 50% bonus on Minmatar (This difference is fair because Carbonized Lead does 20% more damage then Tech I sniper ammo).
The differences in numbers isn't the same as in actual gameplay. An extra 5km on a short range setup isn't all that significant, an extra 40KM on the other hand is a whole different animal.
I think that reducing the range bonus to 60% will allow for Tech I snipers to have a place in the game while giving Tech II users a [still] huge bonus. This may be too much, but it would at least be a start to bringing these truly overpowered Ammos back in line.
*zips up flame suit
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Cohkka
LoneWolf Mining
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.04 23:47:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
An extra 5km on a short range setup isn't all that significant, an extra 40KM on the other hand is a whole different animal.
Oh, it is. Just look how Null broke the Tempest/Megathron ballance. These numbers don't mean ****, if you read them out of context.
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Aeaea
XanoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.04 23:59:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cohkka
Quote:
An extra 5km on a short range setup isn't all that significant, an extra 40KM on the other hand is a whole different animal.
Oh, it is. Just look how Null broke the Tempest/Megathron ballance. These numbers don't mean ****, if you read them out of context.
It wasn't only the optimal range, the increase in fallout gave it a nice boost.
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Denrace
Amarr
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.05 00:37:00 -
[4]
The only ammo problem is Javelin.
It rapes Caldari ships.
Remove the unnecessary Shield Hitpoint reduction.
________________________________________
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Frools
Killson Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.05 02:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Aeaea
My Proposal
Make all Tech II Sniper ammo give 60% range bonues, the same as Tech I. This still allows for the 80% damage bonus on Amarr/Gallente and the 50% bonus on Minmatar (This difference is fair because Carbonized Lead does 20% more damage then Tech I sniper ammo).
qft..
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murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2006.08.05 05:02:00 -
[6]
To the OP:
So basically the big loser in your new idea is the Megathron and it's T2 ammo. With your proposal you'll even further reinforce the Rokh's position as the long range king. So no, your concept is a really bad idea.
The extra range of the T2 ammo allows a Mega pilot to remove a few tracking enhancers to add something of a tank in it's lows, compaired to the mandatory 3x TCs for T1 sniping. So anyway, the whole concept is flawed.
Because I said so...
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Aeaea
XanoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.05 05:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Aeaea on 05/08/2006 05:57:08
Originally by: murder one
To the OP:
So basically the big loser in your new idea is the Megathron and it's T2 ammo. With your proposal you'll even further reinforce the Rokh's position as the long range king. So no, your concept is a really bad idea.
The extra range of the T2 ammo allows a Mega pilot to remove a few tracking enhancers to add something of a tank in it's lows, compaired to the mandatory 3x TCs for T1 sniping. So anyway, the whole concept is flawed.
No this would make the range difference smaller. Plus the Megathron has a damage advantage to start. Additionally this would effect all ships if they want to keep huge range, or force them to fight closer (150KM instead of 200KM).
Maximum skills no mods...
425mm Railgun II Megathron (Current) = 142.5KM
425mm Railgun II Roc (Current) = 213.75
Difference : 71.25KM
425mm Railgun II Megathron (Proposed) = 114 KM
425mm Railgun II Roc (Proposed) = 171KM
Diffference : 57KM
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murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2006.08.05 09:18:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aeaea
Edited by: Aeaea on 05/08/2006 05:57:08
Originally by: murder one
To the OP:
So basically the big loser in your new idea is the Megathron and it's T2 ammo. With your proposal you'll even further reinforce the Rokh's position as the long range king. So no, your concept is a really bad idea.
The extra range of the T2 ammo allows a Mega pilot to remove a few tracking enhancers to add something of a tank in it's lows, compaired to the mandatory 3x TCs for T1 sniping. So anyway, the whole concept is flawed.
No this would make the range difference smaller. Plus the Megathron has a damage advantage to start. Additionally this would effect all ships if they want to keep huge range, or force them to fight closer (150KM instead of 200KM).
Maximum skills no mods...
425mm Railgun II Megathron (Current) = 142.5KM
425mm Railgun II Roc (Current) = 213.75
Difference : 71.25KM
425mm Railgun II Megathron (Proposed) = 114 KM
425mm Railgun II Roc (Proposed) = 171KM
Diffference : 57KM
So now calculate the damage that the Rokh can put out at the mega's 142.5km optimal by adjusting its ammunition type to match the same optimal or close to it. Result: the Rokh does more damage at the same range, or is able to reach much much further.
End result: Mega gets nerfed, Rokh is still superior for all purposes.
Because I said so...
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