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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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GM Lelouch
Game Masters C C P Alliance
102
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Posted - 2014.10.02 10:16:00 -
[151] - Quote
Hello. I apologize for the long wait. I've read every post in this thread and I'm going to comment on some of the major concerns raised.
I can not make any comment on the outcome of individual reimbursement tickets or specific account suspensions, this is a matter of policy and I'm sorry that some of your questions might go unanswered.
POS bowling First off, here is the clarification you've all requested:
If a ship can be locked and fired upon, it can be legitimately bumped. If a ship cannot be locked due to it's position within a forcefield, it should be protected by said forcefield. Such a ship can only be legitimately bumped out of the forcefield with proper access rights to enter the forcefield.
Cyno bumping was also considered an exploit until it was fixed with the Oceanus release.
Public exploit notifications I acknowledge that there's been a lack of clarity concerning the exploit status of this particular nuance of POS bowling. This was our failure, we haven't done a good job communicating about this exploit and I humbly apologize for this mistake on our part. We will make an effort to react more quickly to requests for clarification of this sort in the future.
We will also take steps to improve visibility of public exploit announcements that are still in effect, it is a very reasonable complaint that exploit announcements are currently only found buried under months or even years of news items. Moving forward, we will per suggestions in this thread and from the CSM maintain an archive of some sort of publicly announced exploits still in effect.
Do keep in mind however that this will not be a comprehensive list of prohibited activity within the game. Such a list is not realistic as exploits are often not known to us until they're abused.
The drone damage exploit from this summer is a good example of this. The bug enabling this exploit had potentially existed for a long time before it became known to us. It should however have been very clear to anyone abusing that exploit that they were utilizing a game bug to increase the damage output of their drones beyond what was intended by the game.
Some exploits are also discovered and fixed before they see widespread abuse. In such cases we deem it best not to publicly announce the existence of the exploit since it could very well backfire and result in widespread abuse before the bug is addressed.
In short: Lack of an official CCP announcement regarding is not a free license to abuse game bugs without repercussions. Abuse of an bug/exploit is not okay just because we haven't yet publicly stated that abuse of this particular exploit won't be tolerated.
If in doubt, file a support ticket and ask if what you're doing/intending to do is prohibited or not, we do not punish players who stumble on an exploit and report it to us in good faith.
I want to clearly state that the variant of POS bowling this thread covers is a special case. Clarification was absolutely necessary and we fully admit our mistake in this regard. It wasn't clear to you, our players, that this was an exploit and it is therefore a different case than, to make a hypothetical example, an item duping exploit which hasn't been publicly announced.
Exploits and account suspensions We take exploit abuse extremely seriously, especially when the exploit in question has been publicly designated as such. Action is taken when a player is verified to have exploited a game bug to his/her advantage. The severity of the exploit and the player's warning/ban history are both factors in determining which action is taken.
Account suspensions are not a luck of the draw as some have suggested. All GMs operate under the same processes and procedures and we do not make any distinction based on a player's corporation/alliance affiliation. The same ruleset applies to all EVE players.
We will not suspend a player's account based on player testimony, Youtube videos or player-submitted screenshots alone. A decision to suspend a player's account must always be backed up by information in our server-side logs, we do not arbitrarily ban players. That is not to say that we never make mistakes, we are after all human. There are however strict internal guidelines regarding account suspension and we don't ban players for exploit abuse without evidence. Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514 |
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Mag's
the united
17888
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Posted - 2014.10.02 10:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
All the players require quite often, is clarity. It's nice to see you put your hands up to failings in this instance and it seems a wrong from those failings has been rectified.
Nice post GM Lelouch.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Itachi XIII
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
5
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Posted - 2014.10.02 11:05:00 -
[153] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:Account suspensions are not a luck of the draw as some have suggested. All GMs operate under the same processes and procedures and we do not make any distinction based on a player's corporation/alliance affiliation. The same ruleset applies to all EVE players.
if so whay warent the NC. titan pilots baned? im not talking about a perma ban.
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Alyssa Severasse
C.Q.B Bohica Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.10.02 12:04:00 -
[154] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote: POS bowling First off, here is the clarification you've all requested:
If a ship can be locked and fired upon, it can be legitimately bumped. If a ship cannot be locked due to it's position within a forcefield, it should be protected by said forcefield. Such a ship can only be legitimately bumped out of the forcefield with proper access rights to enter the forcefield.
Cyno bumping was also considered an exploit until it was fixed with the Oceanus release.
Then please make it so that said ship is lockable if it's partly sticking out of the forcefield. Having looked at the image of the original titan and bubble I'd have gone for the bump as well (and would happily have whored on the resultant km if I'd been online).
I get cyno bumping is an exploit as clearly you can bump something out which is inside the forcefield completely. I get awoxing the pos password and/or corp is legit.
But if your titan is sticking out of the POS and isn't lockable then that is a game play / visual issue, not an exploit issue. Eve is hard enough to play without having to worry about exploits, especially when you feel you *are* playing within the rules. Should we take a screen shot and ask which titans we are allowed to bump out of the POS? How much needs to be sticking out before it becomes lockable?
I know, for instance, that if you are repping a POS with a carrier and you are aligned along the shield line horizontally you are lockable (and therefore a legitimate bump target), however the second you turn into the POS your carrier is not lockable (as the targetable zone is a cuboid, and turns into the POS shield). Your ship *does not need to move* for this effect to happen, it just needs to turn! Is this not abusing the same game exploit but from the opposite way?
Then what happens if someone is powering towards you in their Machariel as you turn into the POS shield? They lose target lock in the last 2 seconds before they hit you, hey presto instant banhammer! Especially if that bump *does* put the carrier out of the shield. Technically the Mach pilot has done nothing wrong here,but they have used an 'exploit' just as much as you have by turning into the POS shield.
Yes, I know this is edge case scenario, but FFS make POS shields and bumping work sensibly.
IMHO it should be quite simple - ship model inside shields, ship safe. Ship model partly outside shields, ship targetable, bumpable and shootable. It should not be that hard to make that code work(!) If it is that hard give me a call and I'll write it for you...
This case specifically
As to the outcome - I get you can't comment as a GM but it seems every player that has looked at this has the same opinion - and when your entire player base (including plenty of Shadow Cartel's reds I hasten to add) is on one side and one GM is on the other then perhaps that GM is wrong? Reduction to a timed ban is progress, but really the ban should be revoked totally.
Fundamentally the underlying question is was this person trying to abuse an exploit? |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
627
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:07:00 -
[155] - Quote
Thankyou for the clarification and follow up GM Lelouch. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
25
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:36:00 -
[156] - Quote
Indeed thank you for the clarification. It is not exactly the answer I assume all of us were wanting however an answer never less. |
Hoshiko Rei
Soul Takers
0
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
Thanks for the clarification CCP Lelouch, and thanks for looking into the situation about the ban and remedying it!
Cheers, |
Anabaric
The Grumpy Bastards The Bastards.
86
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:53:00 -
[158] - Quote
Thank you for the clarification, see that wasn't hard was it.
*put's pliers away*
Now that it's confirm unacceptable (exploiting) to interact with a titan from OUTSIDE of the POS field, when the titan is unlockable (thus effectively making all POS/bridge titans unkillable). I think you also look into the other potential exploit / unfair game mechanic which allows titans to interact with ships OUTSIDE of the POS field whilst themselves being protected by the same.
IE: Bridging through the shield.
Thanks Community Manager www.Battleclinic.com @battleclinic Loadouts + Killboards + Forums Twitter @anabaric_eve www.the-bastards.net Recruitment: OPEN |
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
81
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Posted - 2014.10.02 17:05:00 -
[159] - Quote
Itachi XIII wrote:if so whay warent the NC. titan pilots baned? im not talking about a perma ban.
I believe the word you're looking for is suspended, as banning implies something permanent. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
843
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:15:00 -
[160] - Quote
so how is one supposed to kill a pos titan? there's no actual way to do it, is there.
seems like a bug to me. |
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Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
25
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:18:00 -
[161] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so how is one supposed to kill a pos titan? there's no actual way to do it, is there.
seems like a bug to me.
You don't. I did not agree with the GM's response. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
167
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:18:46 -
[162] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so how is one supposed to kill a pos titan? there's no actual way to do it, is there.
seems like a bug to me.
You don't. I did not agree with the GM's response. |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
134
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:55:00 -
[163] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so how is one supposed to kill a pos titan? there's no actual way to do it, is there.
seems like a bug to me.
Kill the pos. |
Tear Jar
Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch
198
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Posted - 2014.10.02 18:55:37 -
[164] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so how is one supposed to kill a pos titan? there's no actual way to do it, is there.
seems like a bug to me.
Kill the pos. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
25
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:00:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote: Kill the pos.
We live in low sec. **** caging does not exist. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
167
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:00:39 -
[166] - Quote
Tear Jar wrote: Kill the pos.
We live in low sec. **** caging does not exist. |
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute Ineluctable.
15
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
So if the ban has been overturned as a mistake is it safe to assume the reimbursement has been taken away/reduced to the same amount? |
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
17
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:43:32 -
[168] - Quote
So if the ban has been overturned as a mistake is it safe to assume the reimbursement has been taken away/reduced to the same amount? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6298
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:54:00 -
[169] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:We will not suspend a player's account based on player testimony, Youtube videos or player-submitted screenshots alone. A decision to suspend a player's account must always be backed up by information in our server-side logs, we do not arbitrarily ban players.
Huh, that is really interesting.... I put it to you that your colleague Senior GM Karidor does not share this ethic. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6433
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:54:14 -
[170] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:We will not suspend a player's account based on player testimony, Youtube videos or player-submitted screenshots alone. A decision to suspend a player's account must always be backed up by information in our server-side logs, we do not arbitrarily ban players.
Huh, that is really interesting.... I put it to you that your colleague Senior GM Karidor does not share this ethic.
This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
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Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:58:00 -
[171] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:We will not suspend a player's account based on player testimony, Youtube videos or player-submitted screenshots alone. A decision to suspend a player's account must always be backed up by information in our server-side logs I assume this only applies to bans for exploiting? Otherwise, how does this mesh with your policy on out-of-game harassment, which by its nature has to rely on player-submitted evidence? Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
167
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:58:41 -
[172] - Quote
GM Lelouch wrote:We will not suspend a player's account based on player testimony, Youtube videos or player-submitted screenshots alone. A decision to suspend a player's account must always be backed up by information in our server-side logs I assume this only applies to bans for exploiting? Otherwise, how does this mesh with your policy on out-of-game harassment, which by its nature has to rely on player-submitted evidence?
Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
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Gfy Trextron
Soul Takers
31
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Posted - 2014.10.03 05:06:00 -
[173] - Quote
Thank you for the reply.
That answers all of my questions asked.
I personally appreciate the public apology for the circumstances, our corp member is happy to be playing again.
Gfy
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Gfy Trextron
Soul Takers
31
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Posted - 2014.10.03 05:06:45 -
[174] - Quote
Thank you for the reply.
That answers all of my questions asked.
I personally appreciate the public apology for the circumstances, our corp member is happy to be playing again.
Gfy
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Naughty Cargo
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
45
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Posted - 2014.10.03 16:05:00 -
[175] - Quote
Thanks for the reply :) Makes me feel a lot better. And yay for Aglon!
Might have made some people annoyed, but seems clear enough.
Cheers. |
Naughty Cargo
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
45
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Posted - 2014.10.03 16:05:45 -
[176] - Quote
Thanks for the reply :) Makes me feel a lot better. And yay for Aglon!
Might have made some people annoyed, but seems clear enough.
Cheers. |
Maccian
Soul Takers
18
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Posted - 2014.10.04 00:50:00 -
[177] - Quote
Gfy Trextron wrote:Thank you for the reply.
I personally appreciate the public apology for the circumstances, our corp member is happy to be playing again.
+1 What Gfy Said.
Good job.
Back to flying spaceships
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Maccian
Soul Takers
20
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Posted - 2014.10.04 00:50:43 -
[178] - Quote
Gfy Trextron wrote:Thank you for the reply.
I personally appreciate the public apology for the circumstances, our corp member is happy to be playing again.
+1 What Gfy Said.
Good job.
Back to flying spaceships
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Demeter Corinth
Basgerin Pirate
16
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Posted - 2014.10.04 06:04:00 -
[179] - Quote
It's not ideal, but it will do.
Thanks for listening to folks, CCP.
-D |
Demeter Corinth
Basgerin Pirate
20
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Posted - 2014.10.04 06:04:56 -
[180] - Quote
It's not ideal, but it will do.
Thanks for listening to folks, CCP.
-D |
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