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Kendon Riddick
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.09.22 00:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay - we all hate being jammed and we know how great it is in large fights and good for under dogs and surprise attacks and such.
20 seconds out of a fight is a LONG time in pvp. An ECM ship can, if its lucky with the dice rolls jam out multiple ships. other EW has to focus on one to really take it out of the fight, but its guaranteed not chance.
Damps can be countered by sensor boosting and range control
TD can be countered by tracking mods and ship control (approach, escape vectors) and range control
ECM however is pure chance and if it lands a jam (yes eccm helps a bit but its still all luck) you are done for for 20 seconds.
How about a change that says that while jammed you have a CHANCE to lock ships every X seconds while a successful jam is on you?
So you have 10 sensor strength and you are jammed most of the time by a falcon with 10 jam strength to your sensor type, every 5 seconds you have a 10/10 change of locking aka 10% chance to lock anything every 5 seconds.
ECM has a free reign and no counter to a successful jam, im not saying a good jam should be easy to avoid, but there should be something you should be able to do, like the other EW, and chance against a chance system seems like a fair compromise.
ECM lovers descend and rip this idea to shreds. I expect it. Just thought there should be something, some glimmer of hope for the ecm'ed to death pvper. |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
133
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 02:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree with the first half of your post, yes ECM has bad mechanics and yes it should be changed. However first off I'm not 100% sure I even understand what you mean for a change or how it would even work exactly, and second off you just griped about something being pure chance based and came back with an idea that is still chance based, so I don't your point. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2701
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 02:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.
As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
487
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 04:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
ECM can be countered by range. Have a sniper not in ecm optimal, out of falloff if possible. In fall off even the math gets fuzzy there.
Bum rush a falcon with no ships that can shoot 2 feet past the barrel and bad things can and will happen put another way.
This was why I brought cerbs on roams. They shoot far. YOU don't have to kill the flacon even, you just have to have them go I am going to die and gtfo. Falcon not on field is not jamming. Learned this trick when used against me. I told my peeps kill that damn cerb as he is killing me piece by piece. We can't reach him, tied up now. Well get untied up as I am about to warp the hell out. Not liked by some...but it was a case of I could die like a muppet to an HML snipe cerb or warp off. Either way meant no jams. The former just meant I didn't lose a ship in the process.
Plus eccm, remote eccm (I actually packed this in jam scorpions in case needed if lounging about by say logo's since us support should stick together) sensor backup array, sensor skill, etc. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 04:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kendon Riddick wrote:Okay - we all hate being jammed and we know how great it is in large fights and good for under dogs and surprise attacks and such.
ECM scales poorly in fleet engagements.
The other thing is that sensor damps and tracking disruptors only give the person being damped the illusion that they can still do something, while ECM makes it obvious that you can't. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
251
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 04:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.
As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM.
Thats a really, really stupid response.
ECCM ships can still be jammed. Happpened to our logi last night. 2 down to one blackbird, and my ensuing death.
ECM is a crap mechanic. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
302
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 05:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.
As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM. Thats a really, really stupid response. ECCM ships can still be jammed. Happpened to our logi last night. 2 down to one blackbird, and my ensuing death. ECM is a crap mechanic.
And you still get sensor damped when you have sensor boosters on.
And you still get tracking disrupted when you have tracking computers on. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Iain Cariaba
355
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 05:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
For those who don't understand the mechanics behind ECM, it does look overpowered. Consider this, however. Unless you put those ECM modules on specialized ECM bonused ships, the chances of you being able to jam your way out of a wet paper bag is nil.
On the other side, you can put a single sensor dampener on each ship in a small fleet and damp your target down to where he has to get in spitting distance to lock you, regardless if it has bonuses to damps. Along the same lines, put a tracking disruptor on each ship in your cruiser roam, and suddenly that t3 isn't nearly so dangerous. Put an omni jammer on each ship in that same fleet, and you'll probably get one single cycle where the interceptor harassing you is jammed. Use racial jams, and that likelyhood drops. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
487
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 05:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote: And you still get sensor damped when you have sensor boosters on.
And you still get tracking disrupted when you have tracking computers on.
Yep.....
vicious circles these arguments.
Ship/weapon/ammo dependent can have good td really debilitating to the point its a waste of time to fire. I'd be looking at the caldari gun boats where tracking not common bonus. Case of say rokh, my tc scripted for tracking is al;ready straining to hit targets not standing still lo. TD that...it hurts. Not ecm shutdown but you ain't hitting worth a damn. Pointless exercise to fire imo worst case. And gives the enemy a good 10 seconds on reload if say I try to pull a rabbit out of my hat and hope better tracking ammo helps.
And I have some fits good damps on them also has them shutdown for all intents and purposes. My kiters/snipers like this. Some are very minimal tank. I get damped I look for exit strategies tbh. As paper tank kiter versus brawler (that I now have to be in range of to lock) usually ends bad. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2702
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 06:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ishtars with Sentries set to Aggressive.
You get jammed, they get blapped in less than 20 secs.
That or you could resort to the olden "outnumber them with moar broskies than they have jams" tactic.
Kthnx Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1300
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 06:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
You might want to take a look at what I wrote a couple months ago. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
482
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 08:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
My problem with ECCM isnt so much that its chance based(although that is a problem)
Its that its counter offers you no other benefits in combat. For sensor damps and TDs thats not the case. |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 09:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Still never seen a fix ECM solution that would be better than deleting ECM from the game and giving Caldari a Missile TD ewar instead.
Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?
Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 10:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kendon Riddick wrote: ECM however is pure chance
ECM has a Chance element to it yes it is however far from pure chance. ECM is probably the hardest for of E-War to use particularly when you have more then one ECM boat in the fleet. managing cycle times and keeping as many jams off as possible as well as making sure you aren't jamming the same person as your fleet mate is no easy task. Other forms of E-War you know that they land and don't need to worry about making sure you damp the guy your fleet mate missed a cycle on.
As well unlike other E-war boats you have little to no DPS are slow and have no tank. other forms of e-war are effective when placed on any ship where as the only effective form of ECM is the burst and that's only really any good for breaking a scram.
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Adrie Atticus
the shadow plague The Bastion
365
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 11:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
1) What has 10 senor strength?
2) Out-range the ECM ship is the easiest option
3) Kill the ECM ship; not applicable if solo
4) Damp the ECM ship, see 2
5) Counter-jam the ECM boat with your own |
Voxinian
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 11:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.
As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM. Wanted to thumb this up, but I ran out of thumbs aparently.
|
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
488
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 11:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:
Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?
Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.
You have a slippery slope here...
First they came for the ecm and I said nothing as I don't use dcm
Then they came for the damps and I said nothing as I don't use them
Then they came for my td and no one was left to speak for me.
Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol
thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps.
Or I thinks its unfair I have to switch out range scripts to tracking on my TC.
And you get the wolf pilots among others representing the 2 mid slot crew going And I thinks its unfair I can't do any of the above. running prop + tackle mlds..ccp so remove damp/td now to make life fair for all.
These people never stop at the one thing. CCP gave them their bone years ago when true because of falcon was nerfed. It used to be much longer range. They got their inch, now they want the whole damn mile... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
344
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 12:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers Version 1.0.3 10/21/13 By: Aliventi A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.
If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.
In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.
Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.
One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.
"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?
Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6. Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing. Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.
See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*
You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.
All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship: Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming
That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.
Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?
EC-300 drone strength is 1. Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming
EC-600 drone strength is 1.5. Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming
Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True: (How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)
5 EC-300 jam strength 1: vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.
5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5: vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones. vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones. For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.
You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?
HTH |
Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 14:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Ix Method wrote:
Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?
Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.
You have a slippery slope here... Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps. But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides? Travelling at the speed of love. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 14:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:Zan Shiro wrote:Ix Method wrote:
Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?
Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.
You have a slippery slope here... Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps. But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?
the ECCM does have another value why don't you look into what sensor strength affects and how it ties in with sig res. as for it not being counter able ECCM drastically lowers the chance of a jam landing and even with out the ECCM its the only E-war that in optimal can have a 0% effect and if jams don't land the ECM boat can be popped b4 the jams cycle again |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
344
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 15:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?
Yeah well, it's also the only ewar where I can skill into recon 5/5, fit for maximum possible effectiveness, dedicating 6 mids/2 lows/1 rig to ECM and have it do absolutely nothing.
Hell a guardian, with no links and a single ECCM will result in a 69% failure rate for a racial jammer. From a max skilled falcon with 2 SDA and a rig to the same effect.
The thing about the ECM counter is, it destroys ECM. People don't fit it though because ECM birds are rare (because they're crap now, compared to other EWAR hulls - too unreliable) and the odd time they do run into it it's easier to cry about how that recon pilot got lucky.
A simple arazu is so much more deadly to a small gang than a falcon ever can be unless the stars align just so, or you have perfect intel. Neither of these scenarios strike me as a problem tbh. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
252
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Ix Method wrote:But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides? Yeah well, it's also the only ewar where I can skill into recon 5/5, fit for maximum possible effectiveness, dedicating 6 mids/2 lows/1 rig to ECM and have it do absolutely nothing. Hell a guardian, with no links and a single ECCM will result in a 69% failure rate for a racial jammer. From a max skilled falcon with 2 SDA and a rig to the same effect. The thing about the ECM counter is, it destroys ECM. People don't fit it though because ECM birds are rare (because they're crap now, compared to other EWAR hulls - too unreliable) and the odd time they do run into it it's easier to cry about how that recon pilot got lucky. A simple arazu is so much more deadly to a small gang than a falcon ever can be unless the stars align just so, or you have perfect intel. Neither of these scenarios strike me as a problem tbh.
Useless like the single Griffin who jammed a comet, a hookbill, and a rifter for their whole lives.
Or like the time a single Griffin jammed my raven for about 4 minutes straight when I was saved by a corpmate in a, drum roll please, Blackbird!
Or useless like when one blackbird jams two logi even with ECCM.
There is literally no conceivable use for ECM. |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
437
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Useless like the single Griffin who jammed a comet, a hookbill, and a rifter for their whole lives.
Or like the time a single Griffin jammed my raven for about 4 minutes straight when I was saved by a corpmate in a, drum roll please, Blackbird!
Or useless like when one blackbird jams two logi even with ECCM. The nature of ECM is that it is random. As an ECM pilot, I have landed jams, even long strings of jams, that were statistically improbable. I've also missed jams, even long strings of jams, that were all but guaranteed. Nothing personal, but our anecdotes don't equate to evidence. The whole picture must be looked at.
ECCM is not a hard counter, I agree. It mucks up the jamming ships odds, but it doesn't shut them down. Given the random nature of ECM, the random nature of it's direct counter seems fitting.
Sensor damps, on the other hand, shut down ECM ships rather nicely. A Celestis has both a higher scan res and a lower sig res than a Blackbird, meaning that it can, all other things being equal, lock a Blackbird before the Blackbird can lock it back. Apply damps while the Blackbird is still locking you and the Blackbird is either A) unable to jam you, or B) at close enough that it's paper-thin tank won't keep it alive very long against drones and FoF missiles.
ECM only appears overpowered when it works far better than the odds say it should. Between the occasions where it works far worse than the odds say it should, along with it's counters, I say ECM is completely fine.
EDIT: Phaade wrote:There is literally no conceivable use for ECM. I'm assuming you mean ECCM here? You just demonstrated several conceivable uses for ECM. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play. Damps, TD's, Neuts, etc can be countered by several options. The argument that "bring a sniper ship to blap falcons" is not a valid argument.
A simple solution for me would be make is percentage based, and have it reduce the amount of targets by a certain percentage. For example: I am in a guardian and have ECCM and get hit with a jam; I would only be able to lock 2-3 targets instead of the full amount. A ship could never be 100% jammed, and could always lock at least one target (i.e the falcon) to combat the EW against him.
This solution would still have a tactically sound use, and even a BETTER use in large fleets where logi are key. If the logi could only lock one ship---they would have to chose between the cap buddy and the one getting attacked. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
757
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
In any case OP, you are on the wrong end of the bandwagon right now. Convincing the mythical new player they can turn the tide of war in a week old black bird is the running slogan.
Truth be known, a Crucifier with 3 scripted TD is just as lethal and all E-War is over powered minus the target painter which is akin to putting a band-aid on a decapitated man. None of it will change much at this point though. |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
437
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play. Drones. FoF Missiles. Smartbombs. Propulsion Modules. Warp Drives. Tanking Modules. Warp Disruption Field Generators (unscripted). Interdiction Sphere Launchers.
These are some of the things that are not impacted by ECM. There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles, and that's because they need other ships to deal with everything that ECM doesn't impact. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
1318
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
No. "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives"-á |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 16:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Grim Destiny wrote:ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play. Drones. FoF Missiles. Smartbombs. Propulsion Modules. Warp Drives. Tanking Modules. Warp Disruption Field Generators (unscripted). Interdiction Sphere Launchers. These are some of the things that are not impacted by ECM. There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles, and that's because they need other ships to deal with everything that ECM doesn't impact.
Drones----if you dont put them on the ecm ship before you get jammed---or hes out of range. FAIL FOF Missiles ----gun ships dont have them Smartbombs ---- viable option? Are you serious? Propulsion modules ----look I can go fast....but I cant do anything else. Warp Drives ----look I can warp, but my buddies are still jammed. Tanking Modules ----I'm slowly dying Warp disruption field generators ----I can bubble my friends while the falcon sits at 60-100k away Interdiction sphere launchers --not going to argue against this one...but still useless if everyone cant fire.
I believe you misinterpreted my saying by the way. Out of play doesn't mean you cant do "anything" but 95% of the time, you can't fight back.
"There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles" so the blackbird isnt a solo ship.....okay??!?!!? |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
437
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 17:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:I believe you misinterpreted my saying by the way. Out of play doesn't mean you cant do "anything" but 95% of the time, you can't fight back. I agree completely that ECM can remove the ability to apply remote reps and DPS in a targeted manner, but that's hardly "completely...out of play".
Bottom line: learn to counter ECM, or keep dying to it. It's not overpowered unless it can't be countered, and in it's current state it certainly can. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 17:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
EVERY single EW except ECM has a SINGLE ship counter.
TD---approach or reduce transversal DAMP-- approach NEUT --cap booster (VERY COMMON in case you want to argue)
but ecm ECM ---bring more ships or fit a mod that cant guarantee you will be able to lock the pilot.
With the reduction in locked targets, the pilot would have to chose whether to keep fighting, or break off to fight the jamming ship.
Every EW should have a tactical reason to be deployed, TD a ship or two to reduce the incoming dps to your fleet, Damp, make the logi come in closer, or buy precious time before your enemy catch reps. Neut a ship to put pressure on his local reps.
Right now, in small gang warfare, the ECM ship can decide the fight. The jamming ship can even take a whole gang out of play, while his buddies mop up. |
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