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Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
And I get it....CCP wants pilots to fly together, and be in gangs; but for the solo player, ECM ruins the game. I dont know how many times I warped in to fight a single ship, and a falcon decloak. unless I brought my OWN falcon, there is basically nothing I can do.
If that person had brought ANY other ship, there would be a chance I could fight it because I could still lock them both. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
344
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
And every single other ewar is GUARANTEED to impact, ECM is not.
What part of this are you missing?
Ed: You think a 2v1 with ANY recon is going to let you win? Rubbish, you might have a misguided illusion of winning, but you're just as dead. |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
afkalt wrote:And every single other ewar is GUARANTEED to impact, ECM is not.
What part of this are you missing?
uh.....so what. So my Damp hits you perfect (depending on range)----wow. So by making ECM a chance based it makes it perfect. You have missed my entire argument. I would have a completely different view if ECM only had a 10% chance to jam my ship.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
344
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
ECM is far from perfect, but it is closer to perfect than it is to overpowered.
Just because you /think/ it's overpowerd, doesnt make it so. See earlier post with math. |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
440
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:Right now, in small gang warfare, the ECM ship can decide the fight. I think what you fail to understand is that this is the precise point of ECM, and really of EWar in general. It's a force multiplier. It's supposed to make small gangs far more effective.
Grim Destiny wrote:The jamming ship can even take a whole gang out of play, while his buddies mop up. Unless the other gang consists of the the exact number and racial composition of the ECM ship's jammers, and are all frigates, there's no way to guarantee an ECM ship can jam a whole gang. Also, this power is based on the other gang not bringing something to counter it. Like, say, drones, damps, FoFs, sufficient ECCM, or, hey maybe even it's own ECM ship. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bronson---- I understand that it is a force multiplyer, I have done nothing but argue for that point, but if you change the way it works, it would still be a force multiplyer. As it stands, its still leaves the pilot(s) with little to no options. If the damping ship you brought gets jammed.....you can't take the ecm out.
Why is my idea so out of the ball park?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
344
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM. |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
440
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:Why is my idea so out of the ball park? Two reasons:
1. Because ECM isn't nearly as overpowered as you think it is. (i.e. It doesn't need to have it's effectiveness reduced.)
2. Because leaving a ship that is successfully jammed your targeting sensors able to attack the ship jamming it makes little sense. Am I still allowed to track the Arbitrator that is disrupting my tracking, or lock the Celestis that is outside of my now damped lock range? Nope.
I do give you full marks for creativity, but with regards to this issue I think it's being applied to the wrong mechanic. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
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Posted - 2014.09.22 17:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM.
Are you kidding?
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Grim Destiny
Failed Diplomacy
26
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:2. Because leaving a ship that has successfully been jammed able to attack the ship jamming it makes little sense. Am I still allowed to track the Arbitrator that is disrupting my tracking, or lock the Celestis that is outside of my now damped lock range? Nope.
Yes you can....can I change the target that my drones are on. There are tricks to hit ships that are TD'ing you, most of them involve approaching or keeping that ship at range. Damps----approach.
But with both those example, I can still FIGHT with most of my ships abilities.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
346
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:afkalt wrote:Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM. Are you kidding?
No, what I see is a bunch of anecdotal stuff added to the illusion of a chance afforded by other ewar types, compounded by the inability of a target of ECM to see failed attempts as well as the use of the classic 'falcon decloak ruined my 1v1'.
All familiar, tired, old arguments which do nothing to prove that ECM is overpowered.
If ECM is all that, why then when all other things are equal, are damps the weapon of choice in the tournaments? Surely it can't be because ECM is unreliable.....?
You're suffering from severe confirmation bias because RNG dunked you. It happens, but you really have to get over it.
Question: when was the last rook you saw? I've seen ONE in the last two years. |
Bronson Hughes
Caldari Provisions
440
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 18:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Grim Destiny wrote:Yes you can....can I change the target that my drones are on. There are tricks to hit ships that are TD'ing you, most of them involve approaching or keeping that ship at range. Damps----approach.
And you're assuming that the Aribtrator is just going to sit still and not take measures of it's own to increase traversal? (Or range, if it's range disrupting you.)
Incidentally, that's another counter to ECM: get beyond the jammer's optimal range.
Grim Destiny wrote:But with both those example, I can still FIGHT with most of my ships abilities.
Yes, with other forms of EWar applied you can fight all the time, albeit at a reduced capacity. When jammed, you are denied the ability to fight at all, but only if the jams against you are successful. The net effect is the same, even if the perceived frustration of being jammed is admittedly higher than other EWar.
ECM is not broken, and not in need of any "fixing". I've said my peace here and am bowing out before it starts getting repetitive.
Keep it classy. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
786
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Posted - 2014.09.22 18:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
I don't even understand what OP is suggesting as an alternative to the current mechanics. Is it supposed to be % * (jam strength / sensor strength ) chance to jam/miss? Last I checked, that's already how it works, just without the coefficient.
The duration of the jam cycle is 20 seconds because that is the cycle time of the module. Reducing the cycle time will merely result in more frequent checks, which will get you permajammed. There is a reason why there is not a skill to reduce ECM module cycle time. It would be retardedly OP.
Drones set to aggressive will auto-engage on hostile targets, provided they are not already busy doing something else. You can also assign them to another pilot and have them sick your drones on the ECM boat.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, every T2 ship that has gone through tiericide and the subsequent rebalances has had a massive sensor strength boost. Coupled with the sensor compensation skills, ECM is no where near as powerful as it used to be.
Range: ECM has optimal and falloff. Out in falloff it may fail entirely. Even if it doesn't, it still has to make the standard pass/fail check. Unlike other EWAR, it has to succeed twice when in falloff. By this logic, one could say that ECM is pre-gimped compared to other EWAR and perhaps should be buffed. Personally, I don't think it should be buffed the effect is so strong.
Hull: ECM hulls (and all EWAR hulls in general) are very fragile. Just sneeze at them and they either warp away or die. This fragility is why they have such long effective ranges.
I don't consider smartbombs and FOF missiles to be effective counters to ECM. Theoretically they would work. But they just aren't practical.
I trained Recon 5 years ago. But I don't even bother flying Falcons anymore because they are so unreliable now.
GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2702
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 19:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
I love my Rooks in gangs of 3 or more....
Just saying. This is Eve Online. If you've found yourself in a fair fight, you've done it wrong. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.09.22 21:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Every type of ecm can have a tactical response (on the field choice) to counter/mitigate it in some way. Neuts nos, damps, td's can all be mitigated by range while ECM cannot. Ecm modules have optimal and falloff ranges, Why not use them?
example: ECM at optimal range jams, the farther into falloff you get the less your jam chance becomes. inside optimal has the same effect, so you could theoretically close range to reduce the jam chance and eventually get under them similar to turret combat. The ECM burst would then be the way to bump lock at point blank range.
Just a thought
Edit: I realize that TP's cannot have their effect mitigated by range control like the others, but could be grouped with ecm and changed similarly |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
53
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Posted - 2014.09.22 22:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Evora Pirkibo wrote:Every type of ecm can have a tactical response (on the field choice) to counter/mitigate it in some way. Neuts nos, damps, td's can all be mitigated by range while ECM cannot. Ecm modules have optimal and falloff ranges, Why not use them?
example: ECM at optimal range jams, the farther into falloff you get the less your jam chance becomes. inside optimal has the same effect, so you could theoretically close range to reduce the jam chance and eventually get under them similar to turret combat. The ECM burst would then be the way to bump lock at point blank range.
Just a thought
Edit: I realize that TP's cannot have their effect mitigated by range control like the others, but could be grouped with ecm and changed similarly
ECM is mitigated by range you even pointed out that in falloff the chance drops so i don't see what you are going for there so the optimal and falloff is being used already.
as for your idea to make it so the closer you get the harder it is to land jams no ECM is used to push ships away use damps if you want to pull them into you. |
Kendon Riddick
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.09.24 18:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
some really mixed responces here.
Its been 11 years and people still hate ecm, this is a fact. is this thread about damps? is it about TDs? no it isnt.
Look at drones too, every other ew drone gets stacking raped, what about ecm? oh whats that it gets BETTER with more due to chance rolls not worse like every other?
Fit eccm? dont make me laugh, waste of a slot for getting jammed anyway, utter stupid bullshirt.
ECM needs some way round so if you fit for anti ecm you actually can do it and protect your fleet wihtout wasting multi slots and stuff for somthing that wont even work.
Its crap and you know its crap, fix it. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
178
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Posted - 2014.09.24 18:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
The problem with ECM is that there's no "player counter". You can counter TD by lowering transversal and counter damps by getting close. There's nothing you as a player can do to counter ECM. To fix this I suggest players always have the ability to lock whoever is jamming them. This would allow players to attempt to deal with ECM without nerfing it into uselessness.
-Tikk |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
896
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Posted - 2014.09.24 18:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
all e-war needs looking at
- falloff should decrease strength rather than being a probability penalty - drones shouldn't be so immune too e-war .. which is why drones are so popular they just laugh at falcons - damps are too powerful - TD's need a nerf - webs need a nerf .. and by default makes TP's more useful - add missile e-war/ tracking mods Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please |
RTSAvalanche
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
38
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Posted - 2014.09.24 19:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Grim Destiny wrote:afkalt wrote:Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM. Are you kidding? No, what I see is a bunch of anecdotal stuff added to the illusion of a chance afforded by other ewar types, compounded by the inability of a target of ECM to see failed attempts as well as the use of the classic 'falcon decloak ruined my 1v1'. All familiar, tired, old arguments which do nothing to prove that ECM is overpowered. If ECM is all that, why then when all other things are equal, are damps the weapon of choice in the tournaments? Surely it can't be because ECM is unreliable.....? You're suffering from severe confirmation bias because RNG dunked you. It happens, but you really have to get over it. Question: when was the last rook you saw? I've seen ONE in the last two years.
lol, that's funny. A strong defender of ECM just has to be apart of Minmatar
Anyways point is in every other form of e-war - you are still able to use all your modules, just some woul be less effective.. ECM denies all of this! It's really that simple
ECM is the bane of solo & small gang pvp and CCP can go to hell of keeping it in game... =\ |
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
304
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Posted - 2014.09.24 19:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote: you are still able to use all your modules, just some woul be less effective.. ECM denies all of this!
This is why I said before that Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps only give you the illusion that you can still do something. Face it, if you get your optimal range nerfed down to 100 meters, and your fighting a ship that can move as fast as you and they are orbiting at 5000 meters, do you still think your guns are going to do anything? ECM just slaps you in the face on a chance based and flat out tells you no, you will not be using your highslots against the other person.
If you go up against a double damp hookbill that can move faster then you and damp your lock range down below what he is orbiting you at, do you still think you will ever hit him?
Kendon Riddick wrote:
Look at drones too, every other ew drone gets stacking raped, what about ecm? oh whats that it gets BETTER with more due to chance rolls not worse like every other?
Actually ECM drones have a stacking penalty as well. Let's just assume that each drone has a 5% chance to jam the target they are on.
First drone: 5% to jam Second drone: 5% chance to jam the target, if the first drone doesn't jam the target, so 5% of 95% is 4.75% chance to jam. Third drone: 5% chance to jam the target if the first two drones don't jam the target, so 5% of 90.25% is 4.51% chance to jam. Fourth drone: 5% chance to jam the target if the first three drones don't jam the target, so 5% of 85.74% is 4.29% chance to jam.
So as you can see, there is diminishing returns on having your ECM drones on the same target. So in large fleet engagements, where there is an equal threat on multiple ships, your best bet will be to put a drone on 5 different targets.
Kendon Riddick wrote: Fit eccm? dont make me laugh, waste of a slot for getting jammed anyway, utter stupid bullshirt.
ECM needs some way round so if you fit for anti ecm you actually can do it and protect your fleet wihtout wasting multi slots and stuff for somthing that wont even work.
Its crap and you know its crap, fix it.
Try flying an ECM boat where the entire other fleet has ECCM on. Chances are you will either warp off or die in a fire before your second cycle of jams can go. The workaround for fitting ECCM on your entire fleet will be have 1 ship fit remote ECCM and have your fleet broadcast when they are being primaried by ECM. It won't help them for the first cycle of jams, but it will on the 2nd. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
God's Apples
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
439
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Wow who knew that bonused ewar was very powerful. No amount of sebos and resebos can protect you from linked bonused damps. No amount of tracking comps will negate the effect of a bonused TD. No matter how fast your ship is you aren't going to outrun 2 90% webs. The list goes on. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
352
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Posted - 2014.09.24 22:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
RTSAvalanche wrote:you are still able to use all your modules, just some woul be less effective.
So by "less effective" you mean: "utterly worthless".
At least ECM doesn't taunt the lesser experienced people by affording them the illusion of chance.....
Here, let me put it in actual numbers. With my emphasis.
Azual Skoll wrote:On a fully skilled Arbitrator, a single tracking disruptor will afflict its unfortunate target with a 66% reduction in tracking speed or range, up from 48% on a non-bonused ship. While that's a powerful debuff in itself, the truly scary thing is what happens when you start to enhance it.* If the Arbitrator is rigged for TD strength, that reduction goes up to 72%. Add a Proteus with an Electronic Superiority info link, and we're looking at 88%. Let me put that in context - a single 88% tracking disruptor brings a sniping Naga down from 224km to just 28km
Oh yeah, sure, you can lock and fire - utterly impotently - but sure you can burn ammo before dying in a fire if you like. Knock yourself out. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
61
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Posted - 2014.09.25 03:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kendon Riddick wrote:.
Its been 11 years and people still hate ecm, this is a fact. is this thread about damps? is it about TDs? no it isnt.
You're right with that logic lets get rid of HS pvp as well.
just because one group is more vocal doesn't make them right or more numerous |
Kendon Riddick
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.09.25 06:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:Wow who knew that bonused ewar was very powerful. No amount of sebos and resebos can protect you from linked bonused damps. No amount of tracking comps will negate the effect of a bonused TD. No matter how fast your ship is you aren't going to outrun 2 90% webs. The list goes on.
Thats not true at all.
And to the guy saying ecm drones get reduced also horse ****.
A blob of ecm drones has MASSIVE chance to hit on cycle, even if they are actually penalized while their effectiveness might be reduced in strength they still get X dice roles which INCREASES chance massively.
Lets not forget that a 20 second jam in anything but a BS or cap fight is an eternity in pvp. Short of auto aggroed drones you are screwed.
I got jammed the other day at 80k by one griffin in a 10 v 5, what the ******* **** man! half of our gang jammed out by one 80km griffen is stupid. name one other ew ship that can do that
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Claud Tiberius
Fidelas Constans
72
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Posted - 2014.09.25 08:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
ECM should be more effective against Drone ships. I think every Caldair could agree on that Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
61
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Posted - 2014.09.25 09:05:00 -
[57] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:ECM should be more effective against Drone ships. I think every Caldair could agree on that No they are already effective considering you can jam a drone boat and he may not even know it. Just it scales even worse on done boats in larger fights |
Kendon Riddick
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.09.25 09:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
who the hell wants to fight pvp fights when half the gang cant do a damned thing because theres a few ecm ships.
explosions are fun, not being able to lock anything is stupid |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
61
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Posted - 2014.09.25 09:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kendon Riddick wrote:who the hell wants to fight pvp fights when half the gang cant do a damned thing because theres a few ecm ships.
explosions are fun, not being able to lock anything is stupid Then being some ecm with you and jam the jammers they pop pretty fast after that |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
352
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Posted - 2014.09.25 09:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
Or bring a single ECCM cerberus and absolutely roflstomp them of the field. It can afford the slot, don't kid yourself.
Not being able to lock anything isn't stupid - not learning from losses and adapting however, IS stupid. |
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