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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
22
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Posted - 2014.09.23 14:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Just a crazy though. The fact that most here want the Ishtar nerfed is a perfect indicator of the root cause of the problem, failure to adapt to the changing landscape of EVE. The Ishtar and it's resists, speed etc is not relevant, its soft squishy perfectly stationary in space drones are the real issue and to be honest they are easy to deal with by a simple adjustment in tactics. Perhaps running some level 4's with a domi or rattlesnake would be helpful here in developing tactics against a drone ship since the NPC AI has this pretty well figured out.
But for those who despise missions, or think they are worthless in planning tactics for a PvP engagement here are the basics. Sentries are small and have cruiser class EHP true but they also hang completely stationary in space, with a max effective range from as little 40k to about 100k depending on which sentries are deployed. Those I know in the game that have had to face these fleets took a page from the playbook of the NPC in lvl4 missions. They adapted tactics to a long range take out the drones doctrine. As the drones start to die the rest of the fleet warps in tackles and destroys the now increasingly vulnerable Ishtars and as the saying goes game over.
As a drones pilot I find it very interesting. Drones are finally being raised to the level of an effective primary weapons system and look at the response. Many crying for the nerf bat because there current tactics/doctrines have no real way of dealing with this new threat. So I say rise up, adapt to this new challenge and over come that is what this game is all about. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
516
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Posted - 2014.09.23 14:31:00 -
[32] - Quote
What did I just read.
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Vulfen
Snuff Box
139
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Posted - 2014.09.23 14:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
I Just think the ishtar needs to have 1 less mid slot and it would be fine |
SmarncaV2
Snuff Box
48
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Posted - 2014.09.23 14:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:What did I just read.
I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp |
Bechuanaland
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.09.23 15:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
With apologies for not exact numerics, solution to the Ishtar-problem is quite simple in my imagination. Merely, apply 'Gallente-ization' to drone bonuses, similar (but slightly more extremely) than Cerberus or Drake. Currently 'normal' Shield-Ishtar looks like:
Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km Curator II: 600 DPS to ~80km Bouncer II: 550 DPS to ~110km Warden II: 500 DPS to ~125km
It's very excessive! Normal ship can choose to do very great damage at short range, or to do shooting further with less damage; Ishtar can do both. Comparing Deimos, for example, it can do:
~ 650 DPS to very close with short-blaster shooting; ~ 550 DPS to ~25km with long-blaster shooting or short-railgun shooting; ~ 300 DPS to ~80km with long-railgun shooting; it can also not choose the damage types it's doing.
Perhaps, if we make "CreoDron" bonuses to drone damage, so that they are applying only to Gallente drone series, same Shield-Ishtar might have performance of:
Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km Curator II: 300 DPS to ~80km Bouncer II: 275 DPS to ~110km Warden II: 250 DPS to ~125km
Then, that is comparatively similar damage at range to similar large cruisers, having advantage of total choice in the damage type, advantage of tracking free from the movement of the ship, disadvantage of the drones being shot, disadvantage of enemy fighting 'from' your drones in Garde-case, since no longer it's possible for Ishtars to fight from 100km drone cloud as well as before.
Now, that is still very much damage at quite long range for Garde-case; and perhaps range should not be quite that great, but these are more problematic to use than other types, being why they are used not as much now in Fleet-situation. Also it's not taking the issue of Heavy Drone-Ishtar, but that is mostly more unexplored area, with some exceptions (PVE-Ishtar, and Gecko-Ishtar). Argument that Ishtar must have unique ability to do such damage at such range, is not good, in my opinion; no one suggests that Deimos and Zealot must be diverged, despite a Pulse-Zealot / Blaster-Deimos and Beam-Zealot / Railgun-Deimos being quite similar ships in many ways.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
348
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Posted - 2014.09.23 15:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Push a mid to a low. Forces an armor tank and slows them down. At the same time, cut their CPU so that fitting DLAs is harder and reduce (or kill) the control range bonus - the aim being if you want super long range, you have to trade and lose substantial damage like everyone else needs to.
Their garde DPS really isnt a big deal, plenty of stuff can outrange that and counter it well.
Edit: Or make the tracking/optimal bonus just a tracking bonus. Not run those numbers yet though. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5100
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Posted - 2014.09.23 15:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
SmarncaV2 wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:What did I just read.
I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... =]I[= |
Mag's
the united
17870
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Posted - 2014.09.23 15:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:SmarncaV2 wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:What did I just read.
I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5103
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:SmarncaV2 wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:What did I just read.
I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. love it =]I[= |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
668
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:SmarncaV2 wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:What did I just read.
I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer.
Good to see someone who *really* has their priorities right :D |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1261
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:There are numerous counters to and tactics against Ishtars. What these can't achieve, however, is a change in player attitude. So, as long as players play as they do, deal with it. If it's not Ishtars people can complain about, it's something else - still not acknowledging the real problems of the game and its players.
@afkalt It were, as stated, armor caps, ie. Archons, which are as useful to a Tengu fleet as a Thanatos is in a Slowcat fleet. The Tengus had their normal logis aka Scimis.
Remote doomsday were not a problem guys, the player getting wreck were just doing it wrong. Same thing for AoE domsday, players should of applied a different strategy to counter it.
The armor reps were usefull unless not a single one of the ships in the fleet ever went into armor. The buffer your armor + structure provide on a shield tanked ship can easyly mean staying on field long enough to catch reps from the scimitar instead of getting blown up. Keeping your armor full if you can is better than letting it get damaged and leave it as is every time a spike get you a bit into armor. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
821
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
better reduce its speed again, rather than nerfing sentries.
these brawling armour ishtars are out of control and need to be stopped. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
287
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:40:00 -
[43] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.
Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Are you insane or just incapable of logical reasoning?
Sure they need a balance pass, but they're goddamn strategic cruisers! Saying that they're OP relative to a HAC is like saying AFs are OP relative to t1 frigates. Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. If you want to talk balances issues then talk about how ships fare relative to their own class instead of pulling a random red herring out of your ass.
The ishtar sticks out like a sore thumb in relation to classical favorites like the Cerberus and the Vagabond because of the completely bonkers place sentry drones are in right now. I would like to point out for the record that this is an extension of the issue with drones and not with the ship itself; it just so happens to be geared towards using sentries particularly well, so while we can say that it's the ship, I'd say that as long as they're making it a drone boat (and they have to) then it's going to be facing this problem. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1261
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.
Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP.
According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. |
Mag's
the united
17871
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mag's wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Good to see someone who *really* has their priorities right :D Got to have some fun in life.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
287
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.
Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. Power at its most basic form is access; even if they get a balance pass and get nerfed into the ground, they will always be more inherently flexible no matter how they're turned. As we're talking about hypothetical balance passes that will not occur for some time, I will say with certainty as things currently stand that yes; most t3 ships with good combat sub combos are stronger than HACs, even the Ishtar right now. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
718
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Posted - 2014.09.23 16:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.
Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship.
As far as I can see, the Tengu is better as a Rail Platform than an Eagle. As 1 example. vOv
@Catherine Laartii
You should calm down and reconsider your use of colorful vocabulary as you employ it way too often and it loses its effect on others. Besides, I am sure you have read Katia Echerie's AF thread depicting some AF being worse or only equal to T1 frigs.
Not to mention that Sentry drones are in a perfect spot. Again (and probably not the last time): It is the bonuses of the hulls which make snetries and all drones on Ishtars, Gilas, Worms and Dominixes as good as they are.
*should get a another life instead of discussing this over and over and over again with people*
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
287
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Posted - 2014.09.23 17:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.
Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. As far as I can see, the Tengu is better as a Rail Platform than an Eagle. As 1 example. vOv @Catherine Laartii You should calm down and reconsider your use of colorful vocabulary as you employ it way too often and it loses its effect on others. Besides, I am sure you have read Katia Echerie's AF thread depicting some AF being worse or only equal to T1 frigs. Not to mention that Sentry drones are in a perfect spot. Again (and probably not the last time): It is the bonuses of the hulls which make snetries and all drones on Ishtars, Gilas, Worms and Dominixes as good as they are. *should get a another life instead of discussing this over and over and over again with people* You're citing an inaccurate thread about t1 frigs being stronger than t2, and you think sentries are in a good spot? Please; if that were the case nobody would be flying hawks and harpies everywhere (especially fw lowsec) and we wouldn't be having this discussion about the ishtar in the first place.
It's not the bonuses on the hull; it's the hull itself and how they're applied. Sentries are inherently a battleship-sized weapon platform and while we can make the same argument about heavy drones, it's not applicable since we don't have to factor in damage projection with them. The ishtar being able to use them puts it in the same kind of role that Attack Bcs have with being able to use oversized weapons, except with specialist bonuses to damage projection and application, as well as that nice mwd sig bloom role bonus. Again; I'm not saying the ishtar itself is to blame here; it's just the fact that it's taking advantage of a broken weapon system that makes it as popular as it is, and the ship itself shouldn't be nerfed any more than it has. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
821
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Posted - 2014.09.23 17:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
the ship itself should be unnerfed. drone ships shouldn't need awful stats. why is it slower than an eagle? |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2333
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Posted - 2014.09.23 22:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
SmarncaV2 wrote:Please look at it! That's not an entirely new idea. Nor a proposal for a new feature I might add.
Thread locked.
The Rules: 17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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