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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4278
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:51:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Right, And no one is saying that. But at a certain point, a person has to have at least SOME thinking abilities to play EVE, and some will to overcome challenges. I will never understand the folks like Lucas who seem to WANT to play with legions of gamers who can't be bother to figure out something as simple as EVE I think you've misread something at some point as you seem to have no clue what I think about the game. Primarily, I don't think we should cater to "the legions", but we've pretty much reached the limit of what we will have with the current status quo. Now if CCP were happy with that, it would be fine, nothing needs to change, but they aren't, and they made it clear they'd like to work on new player retention. Whichever way you beat it, something needs to change for that to happen.
J'Poll wrote:No, it means they target a very specific type of gamer, not the dime in a dozen type of gamer.
Which is exactly what CCP is doing, they don't want to be "WoW-in-space". They want to supply a game to a "special" type of gamer, one that doesn't mind using his brain, isn't afraid of some hard challenges and above all doesn't mind doing "1 step forward, 2 steps back" occasionally. And that;s fine, but the current experience isn't just chucking away gamers that refuse to use their brains. People that could very well become great EVE players are being lost because they don't stumbling into a conversation with any of the 1% that can give them guidance, and the system itself is utterly useless in providing them information. You can't expect everyone to just inherently know how to play EVE.
J'Poll wrote:Fun part, when I started there was hardly any tutorial to speak off.
I had NO trouble getting into the game..why?
Because whenever I start a new game, I start it with a clear mindset of not comparing it with other games. That's they issue with a bunch of people, they try EVE (usually after it makes the news on some website or it comes on sale on steam) and expect it to be like "Game X". When it doesn't, they quit and blame EVE for not being correct. Well done you. I'm sure you stating that will really help in retaining many new players. See this is the problem. People are happy to chirp on about how they did it, but that doesn't resolve the actual issue that new player retention is crap.
J'Poll wrote:About the tutorial, you do know there is an entire tutorial mission that focuses on fleet warfare? I wasn't, so either it's new or it's carefully disguised as a "shoot red crosses" tutorial. I'll endeavor to rerun them ans take a gander. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4278
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:52:00 -
[92] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Xuixien wrote:eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish. Continues to grow.. you sure about that one? yes, after controlling for the boomer population, im sure eve is stll growing. I'm sure we can expect CCP to push out their usual yearly "our subscriber numbers have grown to X!" announcement soon then, yes? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4278
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Posted - 2014.09.25 16:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:This could be said of any game if it a player's first time in the genre. If you aren't prepared to spend some time figuring new things out, you're gonna have a bad time with new things. Absolutely, but it works both ways. If you aren't prepared to spend some time showing people the ropes, you can't expect them to get it.
Crumplecorn wrote:There is no lack of guidance in EVE. None whatsoever. Pick a topic, any topic, in EVE that could be remotely relevant to a new player and you'll find guides and videos and chats and more than you could ever need. At this point the tutorial really needs to say little more than "Google it" to cover just about everything. If your method of teaching new players the basics involves going to third party websites, you're doing it wrong.
Crumplecorn wrote:EVE may not be hard, on that we agree, but it is the kind of game which requires a bit of research and figuring out to play, and in these sorts of games there is simply no substitiute for self-motivated learning (or at least the willingness to ask someone more knowledgeable than you) - even if the tutorial could somehow get every person who tries EVE through their first month without fail, that's just gonna be a lot of people having a bad time in their second month.
The devs seem to have the right idea going forward - ditch the explicit tutorial, and just put helpful signposts on the buttons and actions available. Sure, I agree, but why not show people more in game? Why not explain things to them more in depth, push people to do more than missioning to begin with. They get dumped in highsec with tutorials showing them how to shoot red crosses, surrounded by people waiting for them to click a button wrong and then blow them out of the sky, and people are surprised that many of them turn into risk averse carebears then quit after a few months? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Prince Kobol
2204
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:04:00 -
[94] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Xuixien wrote:eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish. Continues to grow.. you sure about that one? yes, after controlling for the boomer population, im sure eve is stll growing.
So let me get this straight, what you are saying is that after load of people join Eve but have now left, it is growing..
Also proof please because unless CCP have recently announced subs none of us know either way |
Paranoid Loyd
1972
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:05:00 -
[95] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Xuixien wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Xuixien wrote:eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish. Continues to grow.. you sure about that one? yes, after controlling for the boomer population, im sure eve is stll growing. So let me get this straight, what you are saying is that after load of people have left Eve, it is growing.. yeah that makes lots of sense lol
Alts =/= people "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8336
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:16:00 -
[96] - Quote
[quote=Lucas Kell]I think you've misread something at some point as you seem to have no clue what I think about the game. Primarily, I don't think we should cater to "the legions", but we've pretty much reached the limit of what we will have with the current status quo. Now if CCP were happy with that, it would be fine, nothing needs to change, but they aren't, and they made it clear they'd like to work on new player retention. Whichever way you beat it, something needs to change for that to happen.
The bolded part is an assumption with no supporting evidence. a million folks could discover EVE tomorrow and be all like "wow, if I'd know, i'd have started 12 years ago"!
And yea, CCP said they want to work on player retention. That are a for profit company. That has zero to do with us (customers). When you post you aren't talking about what CCP wants, you are talking about what YOU want.
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RenoIdo
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
The facts:
1) No real expansion since 2010
2) Game has lost subs and average concurrent players every year since 2010
3) CCP is being so poorly managed they can't see the correlation between facts 1 and 2. |
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
114
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:45:00 -
[98] - Quote
I can't speak for my fellow new players, but I am a masochist that really likes starting as a useless tool that slowly claws out of the muck. In fact, I took the 21 day trial and someone flipped me a good portion of the ISK for recruiting me (over 600M ISK), and I actually think that cheapened my experience by having that fallback stash.
It's not about competing against established players. It's about accomplishing very modest goals for yourself initially, and then getting incrementally better at things.
But I suspect that this is a minority mindset.
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3988
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:49:00 -
[99] - Quote
i like what lucas says (e: i only read the last page so if you said something really dumb before that lucas i will be very upset)
how do i put this? i want to see an instruction manual that'll tell players what a shovel is and how to use the shovel to dig holes. but it won't tell you you can use the holes to trip people over, or how to push them into holes
Quote:The facts:
1) No real expansion since 2010 where's our new pve zone, race, boss fight, tradable hats and dual pistol powerset ccp |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20796
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Posted - 2014.09.25 17:52:00 -
[100] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:It's not about competing against established players. It's about accomplishing very modest goals for yourself initially, and then getting incrementally better at things.
But I suspect that this is a minority mindset.
It's a good way to approach Eve, you learn from your mistakes, and the player skills you pick up along the way are just as, if not more, important than your characters skills.
Benny Ohu wrote:how do i put this? i want to see an instruction manual that'll tell players what a shovel is and how to use the shovel to dig holes. but it won't tell you you can use the holes to trip people over, or how to push them into holes Or how to boobytrap the holes with Punji Sticks. The difference between a carebear and a bear is that one expects the world to revolve around them, the other accepts the world for what it is and works around it.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
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R3DRUM
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:13:00 -
[101] - Quote
we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets! there is no better way to learn in eve than trial and error, you learn from your mistakes. do something stupid... try not to do it again! u don't learn pvp by jumping in your most expensive ship and head to old man star expecting to wipe the floor with everyone. U hop in a rifter and pray u get to actually shoot ur guns before u go pop.. if u do however get ur shiny ship out plz make your way to Deklein |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
108
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
It is a problem, but in a way it's just like any other game... You don't expect to be handed the legendary end game equipment and items from the very beginning... You need to work hard for it, and in EVE working hard exists in 2 forms: Isk and Patience. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6216
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:53:00 -
[103] - Quote
Hanz Hrible wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Hanz Hrible wrote:It's not the game's fault- and it's not CCPs fault- The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun- No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players.
YES I truly am a very new and very fresh player, under 1.5million SP- The reason I know about the things I've been writing about? Because A) The first corp I joined got war dec'd by Marmite and I wasn't left with any explination- so I had to google it for myself.. and B) I'm in prominent Sov Space alliance now with their own wikis and guides along with new player training. All of your perceived issues are a result of your mindset & belief that people should go out of their way to help you just in case you're some random new guy that is actually prepared to listen & take advice as opposed to what normally happens. There's a difference between going "out of your way" to help some new person and not scamming them, ganking them, trolling them, and just being generally mean to them for no good reason.
New players already have gank protection in rookie systems and they have nothing worth scamming. Why should people go out of their way to cater to what in most cases is just an alt? This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
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Hanz Hrible
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:55:00 -
[104] - Quote
R3DRUM wrote:we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets! there is no better way to learn in eve than trial and error, you learn from your mistakes. do something stupid... try not to do it again! u don't learn pvp by jumping in your most expensive ship and head to old man star expecting to wipe the floor with everyone. U hop in a rifter and pray u get to actually shoot ur guns before u go pop.. if u do however get ur shiny ship out plz make your way to Deklein
A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target... Today I learned something new. |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
58
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Posted - 2014.09.25 18:58:00 -
[105] - Quote
I love the part where new player retention is an admitted issue for the game that the devs are actively working on addressing, and yet whenever a new player voices his or her problems with the new player experience they just get shouted down by most of the player base. Why wouldn't we want to listen and take their concerns seriously so we can have more people to shoot at down the road?
For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going.
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R3DRUM
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:03:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hanz Hrible wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: New players already have gank protection in rookie systems and they have nothing worth scamming. Why should people go out of their way to cater to what in most cases is just an alt?
SEE! That's it, right there "Most cases is just an alt" That digs at the heart of my concern- old players are making alts faster than new players are subscribing... Is that not seen as an issue? R3DRUM wrote:we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets! there is no better way to learn in eve than trial and error, you learn from your mistakes. do something stupid... try not to do it again! u don't learn pvp by jumping in your most expensive ship and head to old man star expecting to wipe the floor with everyone. U hop in a rifter and pray u get to actually shoot ur guns before u go pop.. if u do however get ur shiny ship out plz make your way to Deklein A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target... Today I learned something new. plz tell me were i said A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target????
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Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
78
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going. Anyone can do worthwhile things pretty much from the first day. If that's how you played, it's a wonder that you actually stayed.
In 90% of all cases, the issue isn't the NPE ... the issue is the players themselves.
Do we want a game that makes it easy enough for a lot of people to grasp it ... ... or do we want EVE ONLINE?
I prefer the latter. Another satisfied customer! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Check out the attractive miiral in her new 'Avenue' short dress! More to come soon! |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1408
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:07:00 -
[108] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:yet whenever a new player voices his or her problems with the new player experience they just get shouted down by most of the player base OP isn't talking about the NPE, he's talking about how terrible it is that he has to learn to play before he will stop dying over and over. [witty image] - Stream |
Hanz Hrible
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:16:00 -
[109] - Quote
R3DRUM wrote:plz tell me were i said A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target????
"we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!" |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
79
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
Hanz Hrible wrote:R3DRUM wrote:plz tell me were i said A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target????
"we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!" - When you said "we" I thought you were referring to EvE players in general- I'm not upset that I lost a $1mil heron- I was slightly annoyed however that a player that had been playing for 5 years had nothing better to do than to chase me 6 jumps to take me out. Sorry but ... how exactly did you die? How do you know he chased you? Why didn't you dock, if you knew?
I probably missed a piece of information in this thread. Another satisfied customer! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Check out the attractive miiral in her new 'Avenue' short dress! More to come soon! |
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R3DRUM
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:21:00 -
[111] - Quote
Hanz Hrible wrote:R3DRUM wrote:plz tell me were i said A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target????
"we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!" - When you said "we" I thought you were referring to EvE players in general- I'm not upset that I lost a $1mil heron- I was slightly annoyed however that a player that had been playing for 5 years had nothing better to do than to chase me 6 jumps to take me out. well if u were in someones null sec they do have to protect there turf. we cant just let anyone go in our space taking our loot |
Hanz Hrible
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:23:00 -
[112] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:Hanz Hrible wrote:R3DRUM wrote:plz tell me were i said A heron with 0 weapons worth $1,000,000 is is a juicy target????
"we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!we don't pick on new players. we do however go after juicy targets!" - When you said "we" I thought you were referring to EvE players in general- I'm not upset that I lost a $1mil heron- I was slightly annoyed however that a player that had been playing for 5 years had nothing better to do than to chase me 6 jumps to take me out. Sorry but ... how exactly did you die? How do you know he chased you? Why didn't you dock, if you knew? I probably missed a piece of information in this thread.
I'm not saying I couldn't have avoided the death- I probably could have if I had the thing that some players have called.. experience. And I know he purposefully hunted me down because he was in every single system I was in before he finally pinpointed my warp to a planet's moon.
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R3DRUM
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:35:00 -
[113] - Quote
i normally sit in a rapier with a drag bubble 70km off gate and try to kill anyone that gets in my trap i don't care who u are or what ur flying if ur in our space i will protect it . i was talking about high sec and ganking when i said juicy targets sry for the confusion |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2014.09.25 19:46:00 -
[114] - Quote
Unfortunately, territoriality (even in low) and player agresivity is not something that can be changed that easily, without discrete systems and gates the game would fall apart (just think about "general chat" as the first thing :) ), and the lack of penalty for killing so you can kill anyone you can has probably been chosen on purpose (bu we do seem to start lacking systems, cause this needs players to be spread out, like in every free for all pvp game, ghost town outside safe zones). |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
59
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Posted - 2014.09.25 20:17:00 -
[115] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going. Anyone can do worthwhile things pretty much from the first day.
Not solo, and there should be room for that for new players, just as there is for players with more SP. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6216
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Posted - 2014.09.25 20:27:00 -
[116] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Priscilla Project wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going. Anyone can do worthwhile things pretty much from the first day. Not solo, and there should be room for that for new players, just as there is for players with more SP.
Why should you be able to manage a 100-tower reaction farm on day 3 of playing when everyone else had to wait months or years? This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
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Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
80
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Posted - 2014.09.25 20:30:00 -
[117] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Priscilla Project wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going. Anyone can do worthwhile things pretty much from the first day. Not solo, and there should be room for that for new players, just as there is for players with more SP. Err ... so, you are calling me a liar?
You're clueless about the possibilities. A common thing with people is that they rather talk back out of their dunning-krueger effect, than simply ASKING about what they might not know.
Hey, if you look up "dunning-krueger effect" it would be a good start.
Anyhow ... stay clueless. Another satisfied customer! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Check out the attractive miiral in her new 'Avenue' short dress! More to come soon! |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
59
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Posted - 2014.09.25 20:31:00 -
[118] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:Priscilla Project wrote:Moth Eisig wrote:For myself, if I hadn't been able to o-plex for decent ISK in FW for the first few months while my character trained the basic skills needed to do anything worthwhile, I probably wouldn't have kept going. Anyone can do worthwhile things pretty much from the first day. Not solo, and there should be room for that for new players, just as there is for players with more SP. Why should you be able to manage a 100-tower reaction farm on day 3 of playing when everyone else had to wait months or years?
Hmm, that looks exactly like something I never said. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
80
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 20:32:00 -
[119] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Hmm, that looks exactly like something I never said. True. Mallak ... you're really not helping.
He might be clueless ... ... probably wants to stay clueless ... ... but your comments aren't actually better than his either.
Another satisfied customer! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Check out the attractive miiral in her new 'Avenue' short dress! More to come soon! |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
60
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Posted - 2014.09.25 21:12:00 -
[120] - Quote
The point is that there is no downside to making new characters more capable on their own to take off the edge of the first couple frustrating months. How that can best be accomplished is up to discussion, but the issue is all the people who won't even have that discussion and try to bully people out of it whenever it comes up. Eve is an ecosystem. In the real world, creatures at the bottom of the food chain don't have a choice about it. But since gamers do get to choose their experiences, for Eve's ecosystem to stay healthy it needs to work to attract new players to be the plankton instead of driving them away. |
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