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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5201
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Posted - 2014.09.26 13:59:00 -
[661] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.
Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. Unlike you, I don't just post "you're wrong because I don't agree with you", right now you're just circlejerking.
you were saying... =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:04:00 -
[662] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines. Oh I'm sorry, Jenn. I didn't realize you were an expert on what constitutes "fun" for everyone, nor was I aware that you were there when Hilmar & Friends created the concept of EVE and what it is or isn't based on. Show me where I said, Fun for EVERYONE. I said "fun for people", yet in your zeal to watch CCP violate their own principles you lost the ability to read English. I'm simply saying (and I'll type slow so yo can understand this time...) that CCP doesn't need to introduce things that go counter to their clearly established game concept to eveole and grow the game. They did that with incarna (seeking to take EVE from "spaceship game" to "more in depth sci-fi simulation") and overall that was a mistake. For 12 years, EVE Online has had as a FACT the principle that ANY ship in space that was not cloaked and was not a newb piloted ship in a noob system (or in the SOE Arc) could be tracked down and attacked. These Dojos add a new exception, they say "you can be in space in a special deadspace pocket that no one else can get to and the worst thing you have to worry about is someone shooting your dojo". That's wrong for this game, BASED ON it's 1st 12 years of existence and it's developers constantly saying that you should not be safe unless docked or cloaked. New exceptions should not be added to a games rules except in special circumstances (like how the "no noobs getting shot in nob systems came about). Exceptions should NEVER come from mere content additions if one wants to maintain the integrity of their own development process.
Except you're wrong, CCP provided ways for people to fight with no interruption : AT/NEO tournaments.
Now CCP is giving us tools to host our own tournaments and to pvp in the same conditions.
This won't remove non-consensual pvp since there is an incentive to be subject to non-consensual pvp, mainly :
- getting isk for pve players
- getting fun for corp roams/solo roams against the odds
- defending your territory for null
- attacking people for "tears"
- defending your corp in wardecs
- defending your faction/corp for fw
etc
Dojos won't remove all this, it's an added option that will bring more content to eve. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8359
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:05:00 -
[663] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You're like a simplicity bot. Why do you think anyone cares about how you play? Who exactly do you think you are that anyone would care.
You do have a platform, it's called EVE, it's the same platform the rest of us have. What stops "your community" from going to any of the thousands of empty systems and soloing each other to your hearts content? No one needs to alter EVE's flying in space concept to make a tournament.
Hopefully the fine people at CCP (and our CSM reps) will wise up and let this prototype (as it's currently imagined) hit the scrap heap (like most prototypes do) so they can spend time building something fun for people that stays within EVE's established lines.
What you don't understand is that people have been soloing and gimping their gameplay for years and it's not viable on the long run, CCP is fixing this just like they will (hopefully) fix POS management, just like they fixed the industry UI. Consensual pvp existed since 2005 in eve, you must be new or something but consensual pvp isn't a less valid gameplay than hotdropping people or mining, welcome to the sandbox.
"consensual pvp" has, since 2005 been CONFINED to Tournaments. The reason for that is because EVE is a non-consensual open worlds pvp game.
You cling to the AT and NEO examples because you know what you want is selfish. I can't comprehend such selfishness, I've never run to CCP and said "hey, I'm a PVE player, you guys need to make me safer so i can PVE". As an EVe players, i accept that even though i like PVE, EVEis such a game that people can disrupt my activities.
So becoming a good PVE player in EVE means knowing HOW to prevent disruption.
main point incoming:
Dojo users should have to do this as well. Their safety should only come from their efforts, not game mechanics.
Maybe CCP makes Dojo Deadspace scannable but gives the users other tools to make being scanned down unlikely (like a more expensive dojo that makes dojo ships even harder to scan down). Or maybe CCP finds a way to let dojo users TRAP people trying to scan them down.
Those things would be in keeping with the player run and "ALWAYS DANGEROUS" nature of EVE's 'flying in space' gameplay. But this thing they have now is an abomination. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:05:00 -
[664] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Says the champion in this topic of logical fallacies.
Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. Unlike you, I don't just post "you're wrong because I don't agree with you", right now you're just circlejerking. you were saying...
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve". |
Noriko Mai
1531
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:06:00 -
[665] - Quote
Oh. I totaly missed the point where this thread becomes a this little kids game. I'm right... No you aren't... yes.. no.. yes.. no.. yes.. no... yes.. no..
The only realy FACT here is that this thread goes donwhill.
-Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Æ-ï-¦-+-Ç-ï! -Ü-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-é-ï - -+-+-¦-+-Ç-ï! | -ô-¦-+-¦-+-¦-¦-+-¦ |
Josef Djugashvilis
2538
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:09:00 -
[666] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sea ChangeI'm not a fan of the readily available arena pvp thing but I could live with it. But yea, to me the main problem is the deadspace thing, NOTHING in space except a noob in a noob system should be "un-screw-with-able" and i say this as someone not inclined to 'screw with' anyone. What EVE is matters. They get rid of the unscannable pocket in space thing and (while i don't like the idea of arenas ,EVE's Arena is called EVE Online) I'm more or less cool with it. Even if that pocket was 'damn near' impossible to scan down with the best skills and gear, that would be in keeping with the 12 year tradition of this game. I think you don't understand that the point of having dojos is to provide fair and controlled fights, fair and controlled fights existed in eve for a long time (the first AT was in 2005) just because CCP only used funny stories about betrayal, awox, theft and big 10% tidi battles to market eve till now doesn't mean it's not a valid part of the gameplay. I mean, CCP is working hard to provide a good and professional AT stream, you don't like it fine it's a sandbox you can go do something else. Look at the eve numbers after big battles : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility now look what happens months after that.. We are literally back to 2008 tier of average people online, CCP listened to people like you for years I hope they are tired of listening to people with metagame agendas.
...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:09:00 -
[667] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:"consensual pvp" has, since 2005 been CONFINED to Tournaments. The reason for that is because EVE is a non-consensual open worlds pvp game.
You cling to the AT and NEO examples because you know what you want is selfish. I can't comprehend such selfishness, I've never run to CCP and said "hey, I'm a PVE player, you guys need to make me safer so i can PVE". As an EVe players, i accept that even though i like PVE, EVEis such a game that people can disrupt my activities.
So becoming a good PVE player in EVE means knowing HOW to prevent disruption.
main point incoming:
Dojo users should have to do this as well. Their safety should only come from their efforts, not game mechanics.
Maybe CCP makes Dojo Deadspace scannable but gives the users other tools to make being scanned down unlikely (like a more expensive dojo that makes dojo ships even harder to scan down). Or maybe CCP finds a way to let dojo users TRAP people trying to scan them down.
Those things would be in keeping with the player run and "ALWAYS DANGEROUS" nature of EVE's 'flying in space' gameplay. But this thing they have now is an abomination.
I wouldn't care about disruption, we have duels for 1v1s that can be disrupted (they had to add duels because of the crimewatch changes), we have no option to play in the same AT/NEO setup, CCP is fixing this need.
The always dangerous nature of eve come with rewards, we have no in game rewards for dojos.
Risk vs reward, no risk, no rewards just pew pew. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:11:00 -
[668] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: ...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap.
Fair and controlled fights exist in eve online since 2005, you must be new friend.
Or you missed the AT/NEO streams/news I guess. |
Josef Djugashvilis
2538
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:15:00 -
[669] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote: ...fair and controlled fights...in Eve Online?
Then you are doing it wrong dear chap.
Fair and controlled fights exist in eve online since 2005, you must be new friend. Or you missed the AT/NEO streams/news I guess.
New since early 2007.
It the AT is to be the bench mark, then expand the AT to let folk have 'one versus one' fights during the tournament. This is not a signature. |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:18:00 -
[670] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
New since early 2007.
It the AT is to be the bench mark, then expand the AT to let folk have 'one versus one' fights during the tournament.
That's what CCP is doing, giving us players the tools because you know Eve Online is a sandbox.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5204
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:19:00 -
[671] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle =]I[= |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:23:00 -
[672] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle
This is your (wrong) opinion and not factual data, you can lookup the thread about duels and notice the exact same posting patterns "this will kill pvp/eve", "eve is wow now", "I don't like consensual pvp", etc.
Of course the feature can't be the same, but again like I said the topic is the same and it was judged "un-eve" by the same kind of people.
Please try to focus.
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Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
381
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:25:00 -
[673] - Quote
Hold on, hold on.
There is going to be a structure in wide open space which is full of ships which are not protected by a timer of any shape or form?
If yes, then restrict them to player corps like the good CCP you are. If no, then don't implement the thing at all. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
99
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:28:00 -
[674] - Quote
Why are you argueing with a troll who hides behind an npc alt?
He just wants you to fill the pages anyway.
Now I have to look through this mess....... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:32:00 -
[675] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Hold on, hold on.
There is going to be a structure in wide open space which is full of ships which are not protected by a timer of any shape or form?
If yes, then restrict them to player corps like the good CCP you are. If no, then don't implement the thing at all.
I agree that we need a player corp restriction, it would be really stupid to be able to deploy one in a npc corp.
Unless you can shoot it and go suspect instead of having concord rek you.
Priscilla Project wrote:Why are you argueing with a troll who hides behind an npc alt?
He just wants you to fill the pages anyway.
Now I have to look through this mess.......
Please stick to arguments and factual data. |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
99
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:33:00 -
[676] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Please stick to arguments and factual data. Oh Hi Veers... was wondering where you were.
I know. Coincidences. Roughly the same facial structure and the same hairdo.
And the same stupid textline.
Gotta check the speed of your replies.
Anyhow... reading. The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2352
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:35:00 -
[677] - Quote
To use a frequently posted phrase: 'Well, this escalated quickly!'
In other words, I would like to remind everybody to keep it on topic and please, above all, civil! ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5206
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Posted - 2014.09.26 14:50:00 -
[678] - Quote
Bamboozlement wrote:Feel free to highlight my logical fallacies and say why I'm wrong, you know like I just did for him. vv so because people were wrong before, they are wrong now? really?
Bamboozlement wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:
This is relevant factual data of what happened last time CCP introduced a feature some people (the same kind of people complaining about dojos) judged "un-eve".
and that feature is not the same as the one in question, making your comparison about as relevant as my left testicle This is your (wrong) opinion and not factual data, you can lookup the thread about duels and notice the exact same posting patterns "this will kill pvp/eve", "eve is wow now", "I don't like consensual pvp", etc.Of course the feature can't be the same, but again like I said the topic is the same and it was judged "un-eve" by the same kind of people. Please try to focus. read my posts , at no point have i stated anything other than unease at the notion of this being implemented as is outside of a tourney.
you could a least be aware of my opinion before declaring it invalid. =]I[= |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
103
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:53:00 -
[679] - Quote
Haven't you learned from the other thread, Ralph?
Still reading...... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5206
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 14:53:00 -
[680] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:Bamboozlement wrote:Please stick to arguments and factual data. Oh Hi Veers... was wondering where you were. I know. Coincidences. Roughly the same facial structure and the same hairdo. And the same stupid textline. Gotta check the speed of your replies. Anyhow... reading. oh nice catch, missed that. in that case im out
o7 =]I[= |
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Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:00:00 -
[681] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:vv so because people were wrong before, they are wrong now? really?
No, I just showed that the "doom and gloom" comments are not to be taken seriously when CCP implement something they dislike, is it okay for people to wrongfully say "eve will die if you do something I don't like"?
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: read my posts , at no point have i stated anything other than unease at the notion of this being implemented as is outside of a tourney.
you could a least be aware of my opinion before declaring it invalid.
Sure I also agree that this need work and testing, but a lot of people are saying "consensual pvp shouldn't be part of eve", which is not only false since it existed in eve since 2005 but also ridiculous because eve is a sandbox.
I don't think your gameplay (whatever you do) is a lesser gameplay than mine, I won't tell you to do the same thing as me and like the same stuff.
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1527
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:18:00 -
[682] - Quote
Marian Devers wrote:So... which CSM members ok-ed this? Speak up, no need to be afraid...
me
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:18:00 -
[683] - Quote
SoundWave would have never approved of this .....
Gotta say that ships that do not need to warp to spots in space... ... makes no sense so probs will not stay that way anyway.
And instances ... hm. Bad.
And then there's this deep change in the global meta .........
Still reading.......... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 15:45:00 -
[684] - Quote
Okay... so the deployable is destroyable ... ... haven't yet found out *when* that is actually possible.
The issue here is that, with players hunting specifically for them ... ... which WILL happen, because it asks for being primary all day ... ... every day ... everywhere ...
... well, the issue with this is all the people who will join EVE for quick fixes ... ... will cry out loud because of their stuff being destroyed all day ...
Just writing this possibility down.
Still reading and processing the influence on the meta ... Sheesh, this is huge.........
There is a huge issue with all these deeper meta changes that gives me the feeling that CCP is worried about sub numbers, because of changes in the meta of modern society. Interesting .....
Reading......... The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:46:00 -
[685] - Quote
Sturm Gewehr wrote:I don't think people realize that the tools for arena/tournament style pvp are just not in the game unless CCP is directly organizing and running it. You cannot regulate fits, implants, boundary violations, countdowns to prevent early locking, time limits, tidi, spectator cameras that don't interfere with or can be interfered with, pod immunity, etc. If eve was "real" it would be trivial for organizations to run tournaments with these restrictions in place. You can make all the rules in the world but you have no seamless way to enforce them without the tools something like the dojo would introduce. There are mechanics for sov, facwar, dueling, pos bashes, wormholes etc. in the game but there is nothing for tournaments without CCP interaction.
There is a playerbase that highly values tournament/arena style pvp. Unfortunately this only exists on the live server twice a year in NEO and AT. Many players only pvp during these time periods because EVE otherwise does not support their style of play.
To everyone complaining about how this shouldn't be implemented because of potential XYZ exploit, this is a prototype on a test server. If we are already recognizing it now you can be sure CCP will fix it before it does go live IF it goes live. If they don't all the proponents of it will be slamming CCP for not doing something about it when it was a known issue day 1 along with the rest of you. I don't think CCP wants another monoclegate.
Giving players the tools to run their own tournaments (assuming dojos evolve to support this) is a huge boon to the small competitive pvp community and will drastically improve the quality and skill level of participants in the AT and NEO because teams will be more practiced and CCP will have more opportunities to evaluate their rules and craft a more competitive meta.
And if you don't like dojos robbing you of your content then go blow them up! It is interesting how many players here who are complaining about losing out on content belong to organizations that deliberately deny content with blue lists/NAPs/not engaging without massive superiority and also use content denial as a form of warfare.
For everyone complaining about eve becoming safe just remember that losses do occur and the are REAL, AT runs can cost into the hundreds of billions. The ships are REAL, the ammo is REAL, when they blow up there is a REAL wreck just like anywhere else. Just because arena style combat is introduced does not mean CCP or the players are just going to pack up sov, NPC 0.0, FW, dueling, wardecs, suicide ganking, wormholes, etc. and just focus on dojos.
Also keep in mind if this becomes a well implemented function within the game it could draw more subscribers. Not everyone who starts playing eve because they heard about a giant sov fight actually goes into sov warfare. Not everyone who does dojos will do dojos 100% of the time.
Finally a post from someone relevant to the topic, I agree with everything said here there is no valid and logical argument against the dojos implementation.
This is really important, and while it's obvious that people shouldn't be able to screw with people fighting inside the dojo we should be able to interact with the dojo itself since it's a deployable and with the people deploying it.
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Priscilla Project
Custom Clothing Productions
105
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:53:00 -
[686] - Quote
*points at Veers*
Still processing the changes ............. The most sexy piece of clothing New Eden saw to date! The 'Open Avenue' short dress! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=374461 Join my mailing list, "wemew", for fast and easy future updates! (without the ") |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1882
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:03:00 -
[687] - Quote
the interface looks dull as you use the standard and dated windows but the concept is sound. +1 |
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2014.09.26 16:11:00 -
[688] - Quote
Priscilla Project wrote:*points at Veers*
Still processing the changes .............
All I will say is that you're not as smart as you think , please stay on topic.
PS : We are all waiting for your conclusions, "Priscilla Project" is my reference for anything solo pvp and competitive eve. /s
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3890
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:16:00 -
[689] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Marian Devers wrote:So... which CSM members ok-ed this? Speak up, no need to be afraid... me m
Most of us, actually.
OKed in the form of "Here's a prototype for players to look at, to gauge the overall reaction"
As you can see from the wide variety of responses to this thread, it's far from monolithic, one way or another. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2731
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 16:18:00 -
[690] - Quote
A lot of people want to PvP - specifically they want to 1v1 - but don't bother to try because it's a sea of neutral logi and offgrid boosts and anything except actual 1v1.
A lot of people will say "then bring your own neutral logi and your own offgrid boosts" but that's a lame cop-out answer and doesn't make for 1v1. 1v1 shouldn't require multiboxing or friends. It's 1v1. |
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