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Kwan Lee
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:46:00 -
[31]
Jim makes a good point and I will add a few things to think about.
Short answer is never. CCP continues to add new ships and modules that are increasingly expensive to purchase and train for.
You can mitigate this problem by never flying something that is not easily replaceable. However, that gimps you severly if you are into CCP's end game content of low sec and 0.0.
Another option is to continue to search out for that Corp or Alliance that fits your game style. There are several well established ones that should work out for you.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:03:00 -
[32]
I discovered early on it is much easier to let others to do the ISK grind, and then deprive them of it at gunpoint. That is the beauty of Eve.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Avon I discovered early on it is much easier to let others to do the ISK grind, and then deprive them of it at gunpoint. That is the beauty of Eve.
this man speaks the truth
sig is fixed |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:21:00 -
[34]
Eve is more of a grind then any other game, because all of your acctual progress in terms of ship and mods can be destroyed, and you have to replace it. Unless you win the Tech 2 Lottery you don't get any really easy way to make craploads of money either.
What really offsets the monotony in Eve is not the fact that you don't have to grind, it's the fact that if you do it in lowsec or 0.0 you have to do it carefully. Mining on its own is boring. Mining in a system where there is a good chance of some raiders coming in is exciting...
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Zhelavar
Gallente CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 20:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Telaura Xi Well grinding is a subjective term and perhaps I was not truly clear with my definition of the term. I am trying not to place a connotation to it at all. Instead I am simply looking for alternatives to what I have done so far that in my mind qualify as repetitive tasks. All those I listed seem to be the rinse and repeat type of activity. With all of those activities it seems the goal outcome is the same, acquisition of ISK.
Perhaps grind is the improper term. Instead I should use a term such as ôISK treadmillö.
Again you are taking a word with a negative connotation and using it as a sweeping generalization for the activity.
Think of something other than in an MMOG that you like doing. Would you call it a grind? would you call it a treadmill? No. Why? Because the words have a negative connotation to them.
If you are doing something in a leisure activity - one that you are paying a monthly fee for - and you consider it a grind or treadmill, you probably should consider stopping... immediately... and go do something that you find fun.
Somewhere along the line the makers of the grindfest treadmill games.... games not too unlike rowing for a Viking ship... convinced players that even though they were suffering through content they didn't enjoy,they were having fun.
*WHIP*****!* You are having fun! Now, ROW ...and pay me my $14,95. *WHIP*****!*
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Telaura Xi
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Zhelavar Edited by: Zhelavar on 07/08/2006 20:50:14If you are doing something in a leisure activity - one that you are paying a monthly fee for - and you consider it a grind or treadmill, you probably should consider stopping... immediately... and go do something that you find fun.
Somewhere along the line the makers of the grindfest treadmill games.... games not too unlike rowing for a Viking ship... convinced players that even though they were suffering through content they didn't enjoy,they were having fun.
*WHIP*****!* You are having fun! Now, ROW ...and pay me my $14,95. *WHIP*****!*
Edit: ***** wasn't a profane word. :(
I think we are thinking along the same lines. My concern was that I was seeing a pattern not unlike your Viking ship. I am just seeking to make sure that I am not missing something in EVE before I make a final decision about whether to play or move on. I just prefer to make an informed decision rather than jumping to conclusions.
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Anatolius
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Telaura Xi
Interesting, but isn't gate camping (assuming your killing everything that passes by) just a different flavor of grind? I honestly don't know since I have only ever been on the victim side of the gate camp. I must admit hunting people does have some appeal, but as Kitty O'Shay says that eventually leads to a grind to get back security status. Plus don't you have to kill without discrimination to make any ISK that way?
Conversely, football is just a different flavor of grind. Hour after hour on a field, trying to kick a ball past a large angry man into a net. It occasionally gets more exciting, occasionally you get an hour where you have people watching you do this (who occasionally get drunk and tear things up on top of it), but you're still there on the field, kicking around a little ball, over and over and over again.
Grind is a word too overused.
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |
Zhelavar
Gallente CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.07 22:00:00 -
[38]
And on a side note, today is the 3 year anniversary of the merge between 1st Praetorian Guard and PIE Inc.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.08.07 22:07:00 -
[39]
"In almost all MMORPGs, you are forced to grind. In EVE, its optional.
You can run missions or mine if you want, or you can do something else.
You can camp gates all day in PvP, or you can go hunt people down."
Err everyone always says you can do missions, or mine or rat... then they through in that ubiquitious or so something else or etc... lol, because that was pretty much it if :)
Also you can only pvp and camp gates after putting in for the grind, you know it requires ISK to pvp :P
Alot of peopel have loads of money or ships in this game for those they don;t see the grind, for the average joe the game is mostly a ISK grind. you know how long it takes to make enough ISK to replace a fully fitted HAC? and how long that takes?
the answer is YES the grind is there and you need to grind to do the other stuff, where as alot of other games once you do all your grinding you can pvp for the msot part and never really need to grind again.
I find it an accepted part of EVE though, it is jsut how the game is.
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Luc Boye
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 23:09:00 -
[40]
It balances out the game in the long run tho, a vet with few bills can undock in a pimped out faction battleship, and lose it few minutes later. In wow, once a guy gets his epics and trinkets, he is pretty much invincible until others get the same trinkets, which makes it for grind-oriented game.
As people said, you can chose NOT to grind, and use cheap stuff and obtain pretty good results.
-------------------------- MWD Cap Penalty? |
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Benco97
Gallente On Ravens Wings
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Posted - 2006.08.07 23:22:00 -
[41]
In my opinion it isn't a grind at all, you don't HAVE to fly a titan. I have fun in Frigs and rookie ships, it's great.
Snug Radio - Fart like a Pirate |
Y'laaris Brood
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Posted - 2006.08.08 01:41:00 -
[42]
Lets face it - we actually play MMOs FOR the grind.
Sounds crazy but the grinding is the time sink... it's what makes the game last years instead of days (or hours in the case of Prey...grrrrr).
The key is whether you; a) really notice the grind b) have optional other things to do c) have time to spend not grinding
I spent a while ratting a while ago and saved 500mil. I now dont feel obliged to do anything when I log in as I have enough money to do me for a while. I have the opportunity to essentially do whatever the hell I like with my time.
The best bit is - that'll probably make me money whether it's in looted modules from folk I've killed or from mission runing or whatever.
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Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.08.08 05:57:00 -
[43]
Eve - interestingly enough - has two distinctive types of grind.
The first is early grind. As a noob player you are forced to grind for ISK (unless given it or you obtain it via OOG methods), faction standing and, if your bad, security standing.
Skills cost ISK. Ships cost ISK. Insurance costs ISK.
Then, depending on how long and hard you grind as a noob, you one day reach a post-noob-grind state. Skills now take days and weeks to train, more than off-setting the higher skill costs. You can do lucrative Lvl 3 & 4 missions. You may have jump clones and therefore can protect your precious implants.
Suddenly you have enough ISK that you can take risks that you'd previously avoid. Now its not grind ISK/faction standing that is holding you back, it's skill training time.
This is a liberating stage of EvE - you are free from grinding unless you choose to do it. The majority of EvE's content is available to you, and you have near total freedom.
This happy state exists until you finally decide to enter the final stage - the big end of town: Big corporations and Alliances (although many players in EvE will prefer to stay in the previous stages).
Here you encounter a new form of grind - organisational grind. There are POSes to fuel, goods to haul to and from empire, gates to camp, space to control. PvP is suddenly no longer just "lets go hunting"; its a matter of logistics, blobs, and POS lag fests.
EvE has now become work again.
And if you choose to be a leader, then EvE really does become a job. And CCP has not provided the tools to make managing a corp/alliance any easier.
Hence it doesn't surprise me that the old average character age (has anyone seen new figures) was around seven months: people moving to last stage suddenly found EvE to be work again.
So if by "Grind" people mean repetative tasks that are necessary rather than voluntary, then EvE has grind.
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Mr Xzomo
Carebear Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.08 06:09:00 -
[44]
Well if there where no grinding, then it meant that you wouldnt need to work for things.
BUT there is Loyaly Points grinding also. (Mission running) Set up a goal to work for a faction bs. Thats me plan, and i im going to do it with LP, not isk.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.08.08 06:29:00 -
[45]
Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers #Selling the more valuable player loot #Ransoms #Gate tolls #Occasional scam #My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Rick Dentill
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
Oh I don't know, getting from 5.1 to 5.2 didn't happen over night you know. _______
http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers #Selling the more valuable player loot #Ransoms #Gate tolls #Occasional scam #My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna
QFT.
EVE is only a Grind if you make it a Grind (usually the PvE carebears.)
There is no leveling grind as skills train by themselves. There is no money grind as you can make all your money just from killing other people. There's also the fact that "ISK" is much easier to obtain than most other MMORPG currency and that you can still be very effective with only cheap t1 stuff.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rick Dentill
Originally by: Kitty O'Shay There's only one grind in Eve:
Raising security status.
There's no real way to speed it up other than kill rats quicker, and you can't do it offline.
The upside is that if you don't lose ships, you'll have a lot more isk that when you started.
But if you've never gone from -10 to -1.9, you can't say that you've lived a grind in Eve. (I'm still working on it.)
Oh I don't know, getting from 5.1 to 5.2 didn't happen over night you know.
Which is why I gave up on the stoopid raising sec idea
Being forced to interact with NPC content sucks
Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Patric Murphy
The Krazed KIller Kitty Kats From Kent
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:38:00 -
[49]
I see a lot of people in this thread saying that grinding isk is necesary for PVP. I have to say that this is totaly wrong. I have spent the last several months as a low sec pirate, and not a very sucsefull one at that. There is a comon misconseption that all pvp requewres you to have T2 ships fitted with T2 gear and all the most expensive named /faction. But the truth of the matter is the most success that i had as a solo/small gang pirate was in T1 Frigs and crusers with only t1 and the lowest named mods. i dosnt mean you will always make monney in pvp, but your losses can be replaced in minutes.
No, i cant spell, Yes, i have an education. Please try to keep your responses related to what I said, not the typo's. |
Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:46:00 -
[50]
I would clasify a grind thusley:
Anything you do in game that is not fun.
This is usually for me npc hunting or mission running, im currently earing most of my money buying and selling over eve and using that for PvP.
If your being forced to do something in game thats not fun your not playing the game properly, i think there is something in game for everyone you just need to find it and then your having fun even if it is reppetetive.
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Tobin Farr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 07:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Which is why I gave up on the stoopid raising sec idea
Being forced to interact with NPC content sucks
Alliaanna
Interacting with NPCs is OK, I can deal with that. But being forced to is a whole different thing.
CCP really needs to come up with something better for rising one's sec-stat.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Telaura Xi ....It seems as if EVE is by and large nothing more than an ISK grind. Honestly when I started playing I was hoping that due to the free-form professions and open-ended nature of EVE that there wouldn't be a grind unless you enjoyed that type of thing and wanted to.....I've done agent missions, high and low security NPC hunting, mining, and PvP. Of all of these PvP is the only activity that kinda departs from the grind mentality....
You need to make ISK to buy stuff, no denying that. In fact the time it takes to make the isk to buy the ship is what gives the ship it's value. It's that value, that investment of time, that gets the heart pumping when you are fighting tooth and claw in it. It is what makes the victories truly sweet and the defeats bitter. If it wasn't for that I'd play Freelancer for free and just respawn an uber ship whenever I pop but that lacks meaning.
I have played fantasy games where I would go smacking rats with my mates with a world of possibilities ahead of me. Then next weekend I'd jump on to find they had been on all week and I would have to get a couple of levels to party up with them. Off I'd go picking cotton, making healing kits and purging the sewers of rats. After a few weeks of picking cotton and stamping on rats (or picking wheat and stamping on wolves) in the vain hope of being able to join a party where I wasn't on the floor screaming medic I gave up. I wasn't playing a game, I was grinding.
I don't find Eve to be a grind. I don't grind for my isk, I graft for it. There are others that grift for it but thats another story.
In Eve you can go and PvP in a 1mil Tech 1 frigate, 100mil Battleship or a 280mil HAC (including fittings). It doesn't matter, all have strengths and weaknesses. A gang of frigates can take a Battleship. If you pick your fights you will have victories. Bigger is not always better therefore you can fly what you can afford to lose and still have fun.
Some folks find mining while listening to music and chatting a relaxing way to end a hectic day. Some prefer missions. Others fleet battles. Some like the thrill of the hunt. You can get your fun any way you like. You'll need isk but there are different ways to get it. The bigger pile you have the more you can make too. If you master the frigate as a hunting ship you'll find 100mil goes a long way.
You can go for slow burning isk. Things like mining. It's constant income but you won't get rich quick in high sec. If you don't like repetative stuff avoid mining. Some people get enough excitement in real life and enjoy just being a miner in space listening to classical music.
There is also the mid rate isk. This is generally a combo of things. I used to buy minerals, build stuff and sell it at a profit. Combination of R&D, trade, bit of mining and building. Once I had the capital (week or so) I could easily pull in 30-50 mil a week with around 20mins effort a night on my part (deliver ship to market, set mineral orders, set builds). After that I could do waht I wanted and as long as I made more than I lost it was all good. It tends to tie you to one spot though. POS mining / reactions can also make good coin but it can be a lot of hauling unless you pay others to do the travelling for you.
The last category is the high risk predator isk. Pirate or Bounty hunter you make your isk looting ships you kill in PvP. If you lose your ship it can hurt but if you take down a vessel with a valuable cargo or fittings you can make more in 5 minutes than a miner makes all week. Thats not counting the days of stalking you might have before you find a rich target. My most profitable kill was 40mil which bought me a few new Jaguars. I know there are pirates out there get more but they actively target haulers full of loot. I'm not a pirate.
It's hard at first but once you have a modest pile of ISK you can make enough ISK to get by easily enough. I have never felt like Eve was a grind.
>> RECRUITING << |
Brastagi
Caldari g guild
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:34:00 -
[53]
So... what about whoring LP to get those faction ship? ---------
In memory of Ghossen
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Syri Dominus
J.H.E.N.R
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:42:00 -
[54]
Just to put a little contrast to things.
You don't find going to work everyday doing the same (similar) thing over and over again... grinding?
As previously said, while many don't, EVE has the feature that you don't need to grind if you don't feel like it (still you might do it because of the ISK), but you can always try something a little different, and some means of space exploration is coming in Kali right?
________________________________________________ Play multiplayer Connect4 with you friends in the IGB now: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=374957 |
Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:44:00 -
[55]
isk is not grind...
i can make loads of isk whit 2-3 missions a day if that. i can only barely(sp) do lvl4 kill missions(deadspace ones i die too fast) and i have easy 200mil + in my wallet whitout much hard farming. i have all the ships i need to pvp and stuff to fit.
just find a way of makeing money that you enjoy allso :)
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Brastagi So... what about whoring LP to get those faction ship?
Those are just Empire PvE Carebears who have no intention of ever using the faction ship in PvP (and they usually won't ever use a T1 Frig in PvP either.)
The Empire PvE Carebear has no idea that they are playing a PvP game and do nothing but grind rats or roids until they quit of bordem (or get suicide killed.) They usually come from WoW or other PvE games and can't understand anything other than grinding!
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Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.08 08:58:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Patric Murphy I see a lot of people in this thread saying that grinding isk is necesary for PVP. I have to say that this is totaly wrong. I have spent the last several months as a low sec pirate, and not a very sucsefull one at that. There is a comon misconseption that all pvp requewres you to have T2 ships fitted with T2 gear and all the most expensive named /faction. But the truth of the matter is the most success that i had as a solo/small gang pirate was in T1 Frigs and crusers with only t1 and the lowest named mods. i dosnt mean you will always make monney in pvp, but your losses can be replaced in minutes.
What he said. It's not hard to PvP in T1 cruisers or even t1 frigs. You could have a good (if challenging) time PvPing in a rifter for your entire eve career. You can expect to get killed a lot, but then it would take like 20 minutes in a .5 system npcing to make enough to replace your insured rifter with t1 stuff on board.
PvP is the ONLY thing to do in this game that has any kind of dynamics to it though. I'd call anything else grinding, unless you just really like doing market assesments. +++
"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Alaric Rurk
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Posted - 2006.08.08 10:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ann Mari I havn't played in 3 weeks, but I'm making isk and gaining skill. I loaded up my trades at above avergae prices with 3 month time-outs, I'm logging on now and then to change those critical have to have at level 5 fitting skills. So I'm making money and making my char better with almost no time invested.
So you're paying $15 a month for what, exactly? To not play most of the time?
Or is it that you hope the game will become fun when your character is "better" and you have lots of ISK? |
Alaric Rurk
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Posted - 2006.08.08 10:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Load of rubbish frankly. You can do what you want to do in Eve, nothing more and nothing less.
Im an Outlaw, I make all of my isk from the following and have done for the last year and 2 months
#Reprocessing loot (Player loot) to build cruisers #Selling the more valuable player loot #Ransoms #Gate tolls #Occasional scam #My alt accounts are in different corps, ones a director.. I wonder what I plan to do with that
Grinding = ghey. So dont do it
Alliaanna
Uhuh. And if the vast majority of people didn't grind, you'd have nothing to prey on. You're living like a parasite off of their effort. |
Splagada
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.08 11:10:00 -
[60]
grinding works, but it really not necessary to keep the pace with other players -
Looking for technetium delivery contracts
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