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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
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Posted - 2014.09.28 17:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Prior to the Retribution update, NPC's did not switch aggression once targeted on the first player in the area. This change was for the most part good when it comes to improving the PVE experience. In particular, it added an element of randomness and unpredictability for the player fighting the NPC's. I could no longer send in one tank ship to take all the aggro, then bring in as many max-DPS ships to kill everything, or bring in a remote repair ship without having to worry about its local tank.
It also fundamentally altered another aspect of Eve, and in this regard I think the changes were less positive. It vastly increased the difficulty of solo anti-ratter operations. I'm not alone in this - for example there is this nice old thread bemoaning the change from nearly 18 months ago.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=203437
Thus far, no significant changes to NPC AI have been forthcoming. So, when I attempt to go for a kill anywhere that NPC's are involved, I immediately have to deal with the fact that I am the new "bright shiny object with electronic warfare" and deal with all the NPC's trying to kill me, in addition to the player's best efforts to kill me. Never mind that the player I am attacking is at -9.99 standing to those NPC's and three seconds before I decloaked or warped in, he was happily murdering them by the bushel.
This may not matter that much when I have a gang behind me, but for a solo player, particularly a stealth bomber or recon ship, it often spells the end to the action. Even if I have fit everything to deal with the player's ship, I still have to deal with the NPC's. Try doing that in a stealth bomber against an Ishtar or Dominix.
Since I think this is a problem, I'd like to propose a couple of potential solutions. CCP should implement one or more of these options to improve Eve.
Option 1: CCP could add pirate faction ship skins for stealth bombers, force reconnaissance, and Black Ops ships (and maybe eventually for other ships). Not only would these look awesome, they would also make the rats not hate your ship. These would, as far as I know, be the only ship skins to give an advantage to a ship that was more than cosmetic. That fact alone makes them controversial. Consequently, these skins would come from NPC drops and LP stores - rather than the NEX store. Basically it would work as follows: if I get a Guristas Manticore skin, I put it on the ship. Now, when I am inside a complex or on a gate or in a belt, Guristas NPC's will not target me unless I engage them first or unless I remote assist another player who is aggressed toward or by those NPC's. I could then use my Guristas Manticore inside of Guristas anomalies, complexes, and missions to assist my beloved NPC friends against ratters. Just like that, solo hunting in a stealth bomber or recon ship becomes a viable option again. Of course the Manticore is not the ideal choice for hunting Guristas ratters, but that is a trade-off I have to accept. Or, perhaps all pirate faction NPC's would recognize a "fellow pirate ship" come to assist them based on that skin.
Option 2: CCP could add pirate faction militia corporations - faction warfare for pirate factions. For instance, all players in the Guristas militia corporation would not be targeted by Guristas NPC's, except in self-defense. Militia members aggressing fellow militia members, Guristas NPC's, stealing resources from belts in Guristas space, or directly assisting those aggressing them would suffer vastly increased standings losses towards Guristas. Failure to maintain 8.0 faction standing (or some similarly high amount) would result in the player being kicked from the militia corporation at the next downtime and banned from the corporation for thirty days. All pirate faction militia members would be persona non grata in high security space.
Option 3: CCP could add a module that acts as a pirate ship transponder. This should probably be a high slot module, to prevent mining ships from wanting to fit it. When activated, this module prevents NPC's from targeting the player's ship. This module cannot be activated by any player with an NPC aggro timer and deactivates as soon as the player gains an NPC aggro timer. Remote repairing anyone with an NPC aggro timer automatically causes an NPC aggro timer for the assisting pilot.
Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.
Any or all of these options could be implemented to improve the viability of solo anti-ratting hunting and increase risk for ratters. Personally, I think Option 1 and Option 4 are the best. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
112
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Posted - 2014.09.28 17:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.
That's the same as saying Russia and ISIS are friends because they both hate the US |
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2014.09.28 17:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking? |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2014.09.28 18:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
you really think you havent enough advantage against a pve fit ship?
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
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Posted - 2014.09.28 18:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ohkewl wrote:so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking?
As someone who rats in null sec, a lot, I think I know a lot more about the risks of ratting in null sec than you do. There are two sides to every coin. There is me, -9.99 to every pirate faction in whose space I have ever spent time, with the "Elite Carebear" certificate to match, and my ratter hunting character, who has never shot a single rat. Right now, the balance is way in my favor.
The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
547
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Posted - 2014.09.28 18:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:
Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.
That's the same as saying Russia and ISIS are friends because they both hate the US
Without getting into the politics of the situation in your example (Russia and ISIS are actually enemies because Russia is allied with Assad), in both Eve and the real world, there are all sorts of temporary alliances of convenience. I have been in fleets where we cooperated with Black Legion or Pandemic Legion to kill someone we mutually disliked, only to then GTFO as quickly as possible because I knew that as soon as the other threat was dead, I would look like a tasty morsel to the BL or PL fleet. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2014.09.28 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Ohkewl wrote:so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking? The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order. this just means that a bomber its not the right tool to fight an ishtar, because you have an hammer you ask that the whole world be remade into nails basically. just switch to a more apt tools for the specific need. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
85
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Posted - 2014.09.29 10:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:
The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order. ?
Have you tried using a different ship? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
554
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Posted - 2014.09.29 17:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sure, I've tried using different ships. What truly solo ship do you recommend for roaming deep in solo space to successfully catch and kill ratters? Not "solo" with neutral scout and off-grid booster, but really solo. A good T3 could do it now, but prior to the NPC aggro change, you could use a stealth bomber or recon ship. I'd just like to see those days return. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
55
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Posted - 2014.09.29 17:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Sure, I've tried using different ships. What truly solo ship do you recommend for roaming deep in solo space to successfully catch and kill ratters? Not "solo" with neutral scout and off-grid booster, but really solo. A good T3 could do it now, but prior to the NPC aggro change, you could use a stealth bomber or recon ship. I'd just like to see those days return.
Try a Stratios. Change your Drone loadout to an off damage for the region your in Tank to the region your hunting in.(Free tip the damage the rats do is the same as the guy shooting the rats)
So if your hunting in Guristas space tank for kinetic and do EM damage. Harvest tears.
A solo bomber should not be able to tackle hold and kill something anyways. It is designed as a group weapon system. Either with Bombing Runs or Torping down a larger target.
Then again Solo Ceptors (or packs of 2-3) have been able to **** Afktars for a while now. Try finding a different tool. |
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5328
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Posted - 2014.09.29 17:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote: solo an Ishtar - in a stealth bomber
...and you're think the npcs are the issue.
that's not what bombers are for. you want an assault frigate(assuming you want to frigate) with high resists,small sig and good great tracking and possibly drones of its own for killing ishthars solo. =]I[= |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
555
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Posted - 2014.09.29 17:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'll check out the Stratios, but I still think there should be a way to avoid rat aggro while attacking ratters.
I used to love the Pilgrim for this purpose, but it is toast with the current mechanics. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1263
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Posted - 2014.09.29 19:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5332
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Posted - 2014.09.29 19:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field? They put pressure on the targets tank , making it much easier to break than otherwise.
I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat... =]I[= |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
555
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Posted - 2014.09.29 20:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field?
In my experience, most people don't rat for very long with a neutral or hostile in local. If you are hunting solo, you often have to take the ratter as you find him. Most people POS up as soon as you enter local. Those who don't are totally AFK or very reckless. Trying to wait for the optimum rat spawn means you probably won't even get off a shot. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
679
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Posted - 2014.09.29 20:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field? Because the only ones you'll catch if you wait (in all areas not wspace) are the dumb ones or the AFK ones.
Waiting is not an option in 99% of the cases. (Thanks to Local Intel - the greatest intel tool the NSA never had).
I'm right behind you |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
143
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Posted - 2014.09.29 20:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat...
They really are quite solid. Pretty easy to make a 500+ DPS cloaky proteus, with 500+ EHPS on an AAR (for 70-90 seconds), and 75k EHP before boosts. More boosts and rep if you can specifically gear for a particular damage type (Proteus have insane innate kinetic resists, pretty easy to hit ~3000 EHPS and 450k EHP against that damage type).
The only standing downside to the Proteus, and really anything other than a bomber (including a Stratios) is that nastly 5-6 second sensor recalibration delay. That's what makes bombers so amazing for ganking, even solo. They can uncloak and instantly lock and scram a target. I've caught an interceptor hacking in a data site before with a bomber. No way you can do that with a Proteus or Stratios, unless said Inty was simply afk. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
679
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Posted - 2014.09.29 22:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat... They really are quite solid. Pretty easy to make a 500+ DPS cloaky proteus, with 500+ EHPS on an AAR (for 70-90 seconds), and 75k EHP before boosts. More boosts and rep if you can specifically gear for a particular damage type (Proteus have insane innate kinetic resists, pretty easy to hit ~3000 EHPS and 450k EHP against that damage type). The only standing downside to the Proteus, and really anything other than a bomber (including a Stratios) is that nastly 5-6 second sensor recalibration delay. That's what makes bombers so amazing for ganking, even solo. They can uncloak and instantly lock and scram a target. I've caught an interceptor hacking in a data site before with a bomber. No way you can do that with a Proteus or Stratios, unless said Inty was simply afk. I personally like the hero tackle dual scram Helios. I call it the "Spanish Inquisition"
:)
I'm right behind you |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
143
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Posted - 2014.09.29 23:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alundil wrote: I personally like the hero tackle dual scram Helios. I call it the "Spanish Inquisition"
:)
It's solid, but Covops frigates still have the 5-6 second sensor recalibration. Only bombers don't.
I did see a very nasty rocket Nemesis build that almost caught one of my scanners, however. Non-torp fit bombers and still be quite mean. |
Marc Durant
152
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Posted - 2014.09.29 23:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4147
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Posted - 2014.09.29 23:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
While rat aggro can be annoying, I find it questionable that the NPC aggro is the reason for your distress if you're hunting Ishtars in a solo stealth bomber.
I also don't have an issue with NPC aggro, although I'd figure the NPC's would generally prioritize heavy dps ships over warp scramblers.
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Mag's
the united
17879
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Posted - 2014.09.29 23:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
At this point in time, you should have learned to deal with it tbh. I think it was a good change.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
23
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Posted - 2014.09.30 01:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field? They put pressure on the targets tank , making it much easier to break than otherwise. I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat...
And hear we have the basics of the issue, he wants the rats to be able to do a lot of the damage to the target for him while he moves around totally free of any damage other than that the target may send his way. This change to the NPC AI was one of the best things that CCP ever did to balance the game between gankers and their targets. Now both ganker and target must be able to tank the damage if they want to stay around, heck they may even need to shoot rats so they can stay in the pocket. I would say this is working as intended. |
Inadequate Suppression
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2014.09.30 01:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
This change would make me very happy. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
751
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Posted - 2014.09.30 08:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
yes, NPC switching targets in pvp encounters was a very bad change and should be reverted by CCP soon.
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KatanTharkay
V I R I I Ineluctable.
30
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Posted - 2014.09.30 09:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. You fail to realize that this change was made in order to stop the one ship that tanks and the others repp or do full damage gameplay that we had before the new AI implementation. The current switch to everything on the grid ******** AI is just a side effect of the quick & dirty programming. Ergo the unwillingness of CCP to review that code. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5339
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Posted - 2014.09.30 09:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
KatanTharkay wrote:Marc Durant wrote:The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. No, this change was made in order to stop the one ship that tanks and the others repp or do full damage gameplay that we had before the new AI implementation. The current switch to everything on the grid of the mentally challenged AI is just a side effect of the quick & dirty programming. Ergo the unwillingness of CCP to review that code. actually i remember this being the stated reason for it. you could keep agro on something the rats couldn't hit under the right circumstances. =]I[= |
KatanTharkay
V I R I I Ineluctable.
30
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Posted - 2014.09.30 09:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:KatanTharkay wrote:Marc Durant wrote:The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. No, this change was made in order to stop the one ship that tanks and the others repp or do full damage gameplay that we had before the new AI implementation. The current switch to everything on the grid of the mentally challenged AI is just a side effect of the quick & dirty programming. Ergo the unwillingness of CCP to review that code. actually i remember this being the stated reason for it. you could keep agro on something the rats couldn't hit under the right circumstances.
Quoting from Apocrypha devblog: "One of the things we disliked about the current AI system is that the first player ship in range of a NPC squad would become the focus of the attacks for the entire squad. The squad would never deviate from that attack pattern. We have changed this as well. When an encounter starts, the NPC will individually evaluate what is known of the opponent and target the appropriate opponent. As the fight evolves, the NPC will watch what players are doing and, based on several criteria, will decide if some or all of the NPCs should change their targets. In very basic terms: modules and weapons generate threat; as the threat goes up and down the NPCs will change targets and allocate secondary targets."
You can also read this devblog. There is absolutely no reference to what you said as being intended. Like I said before, this is just a side effect.
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Marc Durant
153
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
KatanTharkay wrote:Marc Durant wrote:The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. No, this change was made in order to stop the one ship that tanks and the others repp or do full damage gameplay that we had before the new AI implementation. The current switch to everything on the grid of the mentally challenged AI is just a side effect of the quick & dirty programming. Ergo the unwillingness of CCP to review that code.
There have been an awful lot of "side effects" the past few years that, just by sheer accident, had a rather positive use for carebears. Don't kid yourself, when CCP said/says "we want more subscribers" what they forgot to add is "so we'll adapt the game to the biggest player pool; the carebears".
KatanTharkay wrote:You can also read this devblog. There is absolutely no reference to what you said as being intended. Like I said before, this is just a side effect.
Yes, they will of course openly state to their hardcore customers that they're changing focus. Marketing speak has always been 100% honest and open about a company's motivation. Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
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KatanTharkay
V I R I I Ineluctable.
31
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Posted - 2014.09.30 14:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:KatanTharkay wrote:Marc Durant wrote:The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.
So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way. No, this change was made in order to stop the one ship that tanks and the others repp or do full damage gameplay that we had before the new AI implementation. The current switch to everything on the grid of the mentally challenged AI is just a side effect of the quick & dirty programming. Ergo the unwillingness of CCP to review that code. There have been an awful lot of "side effects" the past few years that, just by sheer accident, had a rather positive use for carebears. Don't kid yourself, when CCP said/says "we want more subscribers" what they forgot to add is "so we'll adapt the game to the biggest player pool; the carebears". KatanTharkay wrote:You can also read this devblog. There is absolutely no reference to what you said as being intended. Like I said before, this is just a side effect. Yes, they will of course openly state to their hardcore customers that they're changing focus. Marketing speak has always been 100% honest and open about a company's motivation. Ohhh, so CCP secretly helped the carebears. Sweet Jezuz! You're saying that CCP practically kept us the players in the dark but told the secret to the chosen few. Because you know that CCP did this specially to help the carebears, I guess you're one of the blessed by CCP players. God, I envy you! |
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