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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
120
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Income - Cost = Profitability
I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.
Cost
1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed 2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities
Income
1. What you can salvage from the wreck 2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics 3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local 4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior
Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable? |
Paranoid Loyd
2042
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
The key is to make sure the margin is so large it is more or less irrelevant, of course that severely limits your targets requiring a much larger requirement for patience but that makes each kill that much sweeter. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
6134
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Income - Cost = Profitability
Wrong equation. That's the industry one.
The ganking one is destruction + tears = joy
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
120
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:Income - Cost = Profitability
Wrong equation. That's the industry one. The ganking one is destruction + tears = joy Mr Epeen
Sir, I believe I proposed some income variables to capture one's pleasure from creating tears. :) |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
486
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 20:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Income - Cost = Profitability
I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.
Cost
1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed 2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities
Income
1. What you can salvage from the wreck 2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics 3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local 4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior
Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable? It's inherently difficult to equate ISK earned from a gank with the pleasure gained from said gank because it's going to be different for everyone. If you have an abundant supply of ISK, then the ISK earned is inconsequential, but if you actually need the gank to be financially profitable to continue funding your activities then it becomes paramount. I don't think there is any one answer. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. |
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
120
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.
You are free to add the community suffering as a "cost", Pilot Belvar.
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Renegade Heart
Smack My Ship Up
216
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tears have no value to me. If I ever get tears, I try to help wipe them away, though sometimes that can be hard.
Ganking is fun for me. I enjoy the game you get, roleplaying as an outlaw in dangerous space. Living as an outlaw certainly adds more challenge to certain aspects of the game, especially if you are doing it on your main character!
I value fun above everything else, although isk is a nice bonus sometimes!
Lately I have been ganking lots of pods near Jita, trying to get that multibillion isk gank for my killboard, although it is becoming less fun ganking the newbie players, because I feel a sense of duty, as regards the future of EvE, in helping them understand that high sec is not safe, but also not impossible to play in.
It can be very hard to get that point across, so now I am starting to avoid the newbie pods if possible, because it is easier for me this way
I never gank in rookie systems of course! |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
486
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 21:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
I've found that looting the wreck of someone who's ship you've just relieved them of violently is a great way to break the ice. Seriously, most of the lasting in-game contacts I've made have been after one of us has just blown the other one to bits.
I've also found that helping point out a flaw in someone's build after looking over their killmail, especially with newer players, helps them learn and grow far more than simply "collecting tears". I've declared more than one war on new-ish corps specifically to help them learn how to better PvP.
See what I mean about the math being different for everyone? I don't enjoy "collecting tears" at all. In fact, I rather despise the notion of it, although I do support the right of those who do to do so. I much prefer striking up pleasant conversations at gunpoint. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5361
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. This game is designed around the idea that someone can always ruin your day, some of us enjoy it...imagine that. =]I[= |
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WASPY69
Hard Knocks Inc.
343
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
"whispers"?!?
What the **** is this? WoW? Get out... |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4744
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
As an industrialist the equation is easy:
[Profitability of ganking me] << [Profitability of ganking someone else] Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
If target = 4x+ value of ganking ship(s) I usually hit it. If less, than no. Need to account for ganker errors, security tags, and chance. |
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5614
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.
And nobody's judging* you if you'd like to do that.
We don't say you're a bad person for enjoying your legitimate in-game activities, why are you so keen to say others are bad people for enjoying their legitimate in-game activities?
Aren't you the one always calling for civility?
*At least not on moral grounds. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1499
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Income
1. What you can salvage from the wreck 2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics 3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local 4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior 5. Trading/Manufacturing the ships/equipment killed in ganks and used in ganks.
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. I see you're going for the 'sate demand by providing oversupply' strategy. Witty Image - Stream Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment |
Mag's
the united
17879
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. I do, or should I say did when the person I shot had a great attitude the last time I played.
But when they start shouting in local with personal attacks and threatening RL acts, laughing at their tears is the only course I will then accept.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Renegade Heart
Smack My Ship Up
218
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. I do, or should I say did when the person I shot had a great attitude the last time I played. But when they start shouting in local with personal attacks and threatening RL acts, laughing at their tears is the only course I will then accept.
Now I think about it, this makes me see that tears may have some value sometimes |
Paranoid Loyd
2043
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. I do, or should I say did when the person I shot had a great attitude the last time I played. But when they start shouting in local with personal attacks and threatening RL acts, laughing at their tears is the only course I will then accept.
This, I treat people in game much like I do on the forums. You are treated in direct relation to how you act. Rage/Whine at me and I will facilitate the tears. Laugh it off and understand they are just pixels, then convo me and ask what you can do better next time I will give you more knowledge then you ever would have found out on your own. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
S'Way
Bitter Vets
894
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 22:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Only thing I measure is "will I have the dps to pop the target before CONCORD saves them".
If you gank just for Isk profit you miss out on fun killmails such as that random pod with 3bil of implants in it. I rarely even bother with looting wrecks (unless the mail shows something nice). Isk is easy to come by (just buy a PLEX and sell it), the fun in making spaceships explode is all that matters. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9947
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that.
Why would I possibly want to help people who spew vile insults and send me death threats because I blew up their pixels? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. And nobody's judging* you if you'd like to do that. We don't say you're a bad person for enjoying your legitimate in-game activities, why are you so keen to say others are bad people for enjoying their legitimate in-game activities? Aren't you the one always calling for civility? *At least not on moral grounds.
Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better.
That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent. |
Paranoid Loyd
2046
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears."
Please provide evidence on how you came to this conclusion. (Hint: contrary to popular belief, the forums is not an accurate representation of the actual playerbase)
In my experience, most gankers are not in it for the tears. Tears, like bounties are simply the cherry on top of the gank sundae.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5618
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears."
There you go blaming the victim again. You do a legitimate in-game activity and receive vile, EULA-breaking abuse, and suddenly you're the bad guy.
But then, you've already made the "If they enjoy it, it's ok" argument, so you don't think that abuse is against the rules after a gank.
Quote:It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible
How does one shoot someone in a way that makes them angrier than any other kind of shooting them?
Do you press F1 harder?
You're once again suggesting that if your opponent upends the chessboard when you take their queen, then you are the one at fault.
Veers Belvar wrote:There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty.
Veers Belvar wrote:legitimate purpose - ... killboard padding
Tah da. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
776
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
It's about wiping out competition.
A small enterprise player only needs to lose two or three shipments before he is so far in the hole it's better to walk away. |
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics CODE.
229
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. And nobody's judging* you if you'd like to do that. We don't say you're a bad person for enjoying your legitimate in-game activities, why are you so keen to say others are bad people for enjoying their legitimate in-game activities? Aren't you the one always calling for civility? *At least not on moral grounds. Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better. That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent.
So you are saying that pods should drop implants?
A change in loot mechanics allowing gankers to profit from a high-sec podding would make it 'more acceptable' than it is now, in your eyes?
I like they way you think, Veers.
I look forward to reading your full throated support for this, when and if CCP ever floats it in a Dev Blog. Lord knows we've been asking for it for years now - giving people a reason to gank, collect and reprocess corpses...... |
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Income - Cost = Profitability
I think the "cost" and "income" is open to interpretation. I'll offer up a few concepts and you're free to agree or disagree with them, and replace them with your own.
Cost
1. The value of your ship that gets CONCORDed 2. Opportunity Cost of doing alternate ISK-making activities
Income
1. What you can salvage from the wreck 2. Intrinsic pleasure of augmenting your kill statistics 3. Hearty chuckles from rage mails/whispers/local 4. EVE-O forum threads/posts about you and your corp's disreputable behavior
Certainly, some variables will be valued differently by each person. How would you algebraically weight the above variables (including variables that you come up with, if applicable) to compute whether a highsec gank was truly profitable?
There are a few ways to make it work. First off, you need to be using the right ship with the right fit. People like to fly around in Talwars and Thrashers for their suicide ganks. Which is fine, but a Catalyst is cheaper. Another thing I've seen a lot of new gankers try is fitting T2 stuff. If you're guaranteed a ship loss, why waste the money on T2 mods? A meta4 fit catalyst (fits can vary a bit) with the right skills and implants can take down a fairly well tanked Hulk before the Concordoken. All together, I usually never spent more than 3.5mil on my Cat fits. The implants can be pricy depending on where you buy them, but you can avoid having to replace implants by warping to a safe spot immediately after the Concordoken, then dock up as soon as is safely possible (I use the term "safe" relatively, of course).
Secondly, when you loot the wreck in your alt, you want to be looking for something specific. For me, it was the strip miners (especially the T2s). Skiffs and Procurers aren't the best targets because they only have one high slot, so unless they have strip miners in their hold (which is unlikely) you're only going to get one strip miner from them. That's assuming the strip miner drops, of course. Then what you do is sell the strip miners BACK to the miners on the market at an elevated price. It's important that you at least sell them in the same region that you ganked them. No point in selling to miners who you aren't ganking. Naturally, the requires you to gank a LOT. Ganking with a pirate corp will help a lot, too. The more people there are ganking strips, the higher demand there will be for strips. The higher the demand for strips, the more you can inflate the price.
Sorry if this isn't the algebraic answer you were looking for, but that's basically how it works. Basically, you're stealing a ~3.6mil (Hek prices) lolly-pop from a toddler and selling it back to them for 4 or 5 mil (or what ever you've managed to elevate the price to). Considering the meta4 Cat only costs a total of ~3.5mil, you're making a decent amount more than you're losing. Even if you only manage to sell one strip miner for the normal price of ~3.6mil, you're still making more than enough to replace your loss. I hope this helps you to understand the profitability of suicide/hisec ganking. It isn't exactly the most lucrative profession (especially when the miners catch on and won't come out to play for a few days), but it gets the job done.
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Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Or you could actually try to help other people enjoy the game instead of looking for tears...imagine that. And nobody's judging* you if you'd like to do that. We don't say you're a bad person for enjoying your legitimate in-game activities, why are you so keen to say others are bad people for enjoying their legitimate in-game activities? Aren't you the one always calling for civility? *At least not on moral grounds. Except that for many gankers the sole reason they gank is "tears." There is no in-game benefit, they know the ships are empty. It's done specifically to elicit as much anger and upset as possible, and then used to mock and humiliate the victim. It is the precise opposite of civility, and not really an "in-game" activity at all. Rather it is using Eve to attempt to inflict emotional harm on people, and the more vulnerable/unbalanced/impaired they are - the better. That's the difference between ganking for a legitimate purpose - be it isk, territory, killboard padding, or what not, which I am fine with, and ganking to intentionally inflict emotional distress, which I find abhorrent. So you are saying that pods should drop implants? A change in loot mechanics allowing gankers to profit from a high-sec podding would make it 'more acceptable' than it is now, in your eyes? I like they way you think, Veers. I look forward to reading your full throated support for this, when and if CCP ever floats it in a Dev Blog. Lord knows we've been asking for it for years now - giving people a reason to gank, collect and reprocess corpses......
We actually don't really need pods to drop implants. I've gotten plenty of my victims to buy back their corpses for exactly that purpose. Oh, the sweet, sweet tears. One can only imagine the joy I feel, the beat my heart skips, when a victim actually agrees to buy his own corpse back so that he can get his implants back. Of course, I'm always generous enough to sell the corpse back at a price that is lower than the total cost of the implants.
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Renegade Heart
Smack My Ship Up
218
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Wolf Incaelum wrote:We actually don't really need pods to drop implants. I've gotten plenty of my victims to buy back their corpses for exactly that purpose. Oh, the sweet, sweet tears. One can only imagine the joy I feel, the beat my heart skips, when a victim actually agrees to buy his own corpse back so that he can get his implants back. Of course, I'm always generous enough to sell the corpse back at a price that is lower than the total cost of the implants.
This is genius. Perhaps we could consider the cost of ganking a pod with no implants a price worth paying for the good ones to be found? |
Buck Futz
New Order Logistics CODE.
229
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Wolf Incaelum wrote:We actually don't really need pods to drop implants. I've gotten plenty of my victims to buy back their corpses for exactly that purpose. Oh, the sweet, sweet tears. One can only imagine the joy I feel, the beat my heart skips, when a victim actually agrees to buy his own corpse back so that he can get his implants back. Of course, I'm always generous enough to sell the corpse back at a price that is lower than the total cost of the implants.
Clever! Still relies on an unforced error by the victim, as in 'being a moron'. But nice when the right person happens along.
Really, it seems that a pretty solid bit of evidence regarding the motivations of various gankers was provided when 'implants on podmails' became a thing.
Nothing changed in terms of economics. Victims still lost their implants, gankers still lost their gankship. Simply providing more information about the gank led to massive increases in the activity. D400 made a career out of it, even before bounties were modified.
A more straightforward benefit (ie implant drops) would likely not only make podding more exciting (scramble for the corpse!) - but also a more 'legitimate' activity in the eyes of Veers, who believes any aggressive action must be be paired with an economic justification to be ethical.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9948
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 23:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Economic justification my ass. Try getting into the implant market, and telling me that podding isn't a strict necessity to keep the economy going.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
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