Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Iain Cariaba
419
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 19:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:The point is that ESSes in anomalies do not promote actual pvp activity But this wasn't your initial complaint.
Zao Elongur wrote:It is very easy for the defender to just warp to the ESS with an implantless pod, but it is very hard for the lucrative pirate to steal from them. You said it yourself, you just want to steal ratter isk.
Taking ESSes out of anoms would not, as you claim, promote PvP. All it would do is make it so no one uses ESS. Most ratters aren't going to fight anyway, so why would they bother giving you a free target to steal 20% of their income? Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Iain Cariaba
596
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 19:24:08 -
[32] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:The point is that ESSes in anomalies do not promote actual pvp activity But this wasn't your initial complaint.
Zao Elongur wrote:It is very easy for the defender to just warp to the ESS with an implantless pod, but it is very hard for the lucrative pirate to steal from them. You said it yourself, you just want to steal ratter isk.
Taking ESSes out of anoms would not, as you claim, promote PvP. All it would do is make it so no one uses ESS. Most ratters aren't going to fight anyway, so why would they bother giving you a free target to steal 20% of their income?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
|
Patty Loveless
Minute to Midnight
5
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 19:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Stupid forums ate my detailed post. I refuse to write it all up again.
tl;dr ESS in anom is broken. NPCs shouldn't provide protection services for player deployed structures. The 'pirate' is already infi-pointed and has to sit there for 2 minutes to take your tokens.
With an ESS in an anom, you risk nothing, he risks his ship. End of story. |
Patty Loveless
Minute to Midnight
11
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 19:51:59 -
[34] - Quote
Stupid forums ate my detailed post. I refuse to write it all up again.
tl;dr ESS in anom is broken. NPCs shouldn't provide protection services for player deployed structures. The 'pirate' is already infi-pointed and has to sit there for 2 minutes to take your tokens. Oh, his presence at a globally warpable object in system is literally announced in local as well.
With an ESS in an anom, you risk nothing, he risks his ship. End of story. |
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 01:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:But this wasn't your initial complaint.
But people cannot understand:
a) that an exploit is an exploit even if it suits their game b) that discussing something does not equal tears/drama/whatever c) that pirates having ways around the aforementioned exploit doesn't mean that "everything is ok"
should i just call people inexperienced / biased / stupid and not explain anything? what help would that be to an actual discussion?
Iain Cariaba wrote:You said it yourself, you just want to steal ratter isk.
Taking ESSes out of anoms would not, as you claim, promote PvP. All it would do is make it so no one uses ESS. Most ratters aren't going to fight anyway, so why would they bother giving you a free target to steal 20% of their income?
Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's Risk versus Reward. If robbing an ESS could be done at no risk then there would be no reward for doing do. And the bonus they provide does not balance out having a standing fleet defending them.
I would prefer to have much fewer ESS to take from, than having so many of them anchored inside anomalies.
As for ratters: if they cannot read their inteligence channels and share money on time, that is their problem, not mine. If they cannot notice the neutral/red entering the system chat, that is their problem, not mine If they cannot read the red text on the same chat, that is their problem, not mine. If they cannot react within 3.5 mins and prevent me, that is their problem, not mine. If they are not willing to fight, again that is their problem, not mine.
You want to know my risk? I risk flying 30-60 gates in hostile space I risk passing many gate camps I risk needing to stay next to an object that disrupts me with 100 power for 3.5 mins I risk spending all that traveling time with the possibility of not finding any ess or having them shared and empty I risk taking my loot and flying all that course back
Every time i make a mistake, there is a big chance i will loose my ship, my loot and my time. Who can be blamed when i loose except for myself?
If ratters do-not-want/fail to play the game as they should, that is no excuse that can justify exploiting anomalies to defend their ess.
My suggestions are: Prevent anchoring of ESS in anomalies Increase ESS pay out to compensate for the increased risk
even better, pay out should be increase only for the ratters. i also think that having rats shooting the ess, as some people suggested is a very good alternative idea. |
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 01:15:22 -
[36] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:But this wasn't your initial complaint.
But people cannot understand:
a) that an exploit is an exploit even if it suits their game b) that discussing something does not equal tears/drama/whatever c) that pirates having ways around the aforementioned exploit doesn't mean that "everything is ok"
should i just call people inexperienced / biased / stupid and not explain anything? what help would that be to an actual discussion?
Iain Cariaba wrote:You said it yourself, you just want to steal ratter isk.
Taking ESSes out of anoms would not, as you claim, promote PvP. All it would do is make it so no one uses ESS. Most ratters aren't going to fight anyway, so why would they bother giving you a free target to steal 20% of their income?
Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's Risk versus Reward. If robbing an ESS could be done at no risk then there would be no reward for doing do. And the bonus they provide does not balance out having a standing fleet defending them.
I would prefer to have much fewer ESS to take from, than having so many of them anchored inside anomalies.
As for ratters: if they cannot read their inteligence channels and share money on time, that is their problem, not mine. If they cannot notice the neutral/red entering the system chat, that is their problem, not mine If they cannot read the red text on the same chat, that is their problem, not mine. If they cannot react within 3.5 mins and prevent me, that is their problem, not mine. If they are not willing to fight, again that is their problem, not mine.
You want to know my risk? I risk flying 30-60 gates in hostile space I risk passing many gate camps I risk needing to stay next to an object that disrupts me with 100 power for 3.5 mins I risk spending all that traveling time with the possibility of not finding any ess or having them shared and empty I risk taking my loot and flying all that course back
Every time i make a mistake, there is a big chance i will loose my ship, my loot and my time. Who can be blamed when i loose except for myself?
If ratters do-not-want/fail to play the game as they should, that is no excuse that can justify exploiting anomalies to defend their ess.
My suggestions are: Prevent anchoring of ESS in anomalies Increase ESS pay out to compensate for the increased risk
even better, pay out should be increase only for the ratters. i also think that having rats shooting the ess, as some people suggested is a very good alternative idea. |
Plukovnik
Everyone vs Everything THE R0NIN
8
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 11:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
I would just let the ESS being anchorable in anomaly. At least stealing will be only for guys who really know how to do it and prepare well for it. Making it too easy would bring tons of random noobs who can fly a ceptor, stealing from every ESS that has 1% bonus and 10 mil. ISK in it.
However what would change: Mobile Tractor Unit must be unable to anchore less than 200 km from ESS. Or MTU should be shot by NPCs - it would also help making Noctis relevant ship again. |
Plukovnik
Everyone vs Everything THE R0NIN
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 11:33:12 -
[38] - Quote
I would just let the ESS being anchorable in anomaly. At least stealing will be only for guys who really know how to do it and prepare well for it. Making it too easy would bring tons of random noobs who can fly a ceptor, stealing from every ESS that has 1% bonus and 10 mil. ISK in it.
However I suggest a change: Mobile Tractor Unit should not be anchorable less than 200 km from ESS. Or MTU should be shot by NPCs - it would also help making Noctis relevant ship again.
And I agree with the idea of anchorable bubbles being shot by NPCs. |
Plukovnik
Everyone vs Everything THE R0NIN
8
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 11:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:But this wasn't your initial complaint. But people cannot understand: a) that an exploit is an exploit even if it suits their game
Dude, I am thief myself and ESS in anomalies perfectly suit my game - and are in best interest for all thieves.
Why?
1) If every ceptor could start stealing, EVE would be full of random dudes trying to steal from ESS. You could never retrieve decent amount, because every ESS would be robbed constantly.
2) NPC defence actually makes people less caring about their ESS money - they think it is OK that you approached ESS because they think you cannot do anything anyway because of NPCs, so they do not defend it - and let you steal huge amount of ISK.
3) When they come to defend it, you can expect nice fight with NPCs as wild card and good reward if you win - I once won fight with 2 maledictions vs Navy Vexor, Dramiel and Hawk using NPCs swithing tagets. Then I stole few hundred mil. ISK.
Believe me, the only reason why it is possible to steal amounts like 1 bil. ISK, is just beacause local people think that their ESS is safe due to NPCs guarding it.
|
Plukovnik
Everyone vs Everything THE R0NIN
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 11:45:14 -
[40] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:But this wasn't your initial complaint. But people cannot understand: a) that an exploit is an exploit even if it suits their game
Dude, I am thief myself and ESS in anomalies perfectly suit my game - and are in best interest for all thieves.
Why?
1) If every ceptor could start stealing, EVE would be full of random dudes trying to steal from ESS. You could never retrieve decent amount, because every ESS would be robbed constantly.
2) NPC defence actually makes people less caring about their ESS money - they think it is OK that you approached ESS because they think you cannot do anything anyway because of NPCs, so they do not defend it - and let you steal huge amount of ISK.
3) When they come to defend it, you can expect nice fight with NPCs as wild card and good reward if you win - I once won fight with 2 maledictions vs Navy Vexor, Dramiel and Hawk using NPCs swithing tagets. Then I stole few hundred mil. ISK.
Believe me, the only reason why it is possible to steal amounts like 1 bil. ISK, is just beacause local people think that their ESS is safe due to NPCs guarding it.
|
|
Oddsodz
C.Q.B Bohica Empire
101
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 12:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
ESS as a system to promote PVP opportunities has failed 100% due to the tactic of placing the unit in hell spawned anomalies.
The main goal of the ESS was to promote PVP. Right now., That does not really happen.
Easy way to fix ESS.
Add new rule to the unit that states that it must be deployed within 1000KM of Stargate / Station/ Planet / Custom Office. Now the system will work as intended to provide PVP opportunities. |
Oddsodz
C.Q.B
115
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 12:07:11 -
[42] - Quote
ESS as a system to promote PVP opportunities has failed 100% due to the tactic of placing the unit in hell spawned anomalies.
The main goal of the ESS was to promote PVP. Right now., That does not really happen.
Easy way to fix ESS.
Add new rule to the unit that states that it must be deployed within 1000KM of Stargate / Station/ Planet / Custom Office. Now the system will work as intended to provide PVP opportunities. |
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 02:15:11 -
[43] - Quote
Im bumping up the thread as there is still no official reply
Plukovnik wrote:1) If every ceptor could start stealing, EVE would be full of random dudes trying to steal from ESS. You could never retrieve decent amount, because every ESS would be robbed constantly.
2) NPC defence actually makes people less caring about their ESS money - they think it is OK that you approached ESS because they think you cannot do anything anyway because of NPCs, so they do not defend it - and let you steal huge amount of ISK.
3) When they come to defend it, you can expect nice fight with NPCs as wild card and good reward if you win - I once won fight with 2 maledictions vs Navy Vexor, Dramiel and Hawk using NPCs swithing tagets. Then I stole few hundred mil. ISK.
Believe me, the only reason why it is possible to steal amounts like 1 bil. ISK, is just beacause local people think that their ESS is safe due to NPCs guarding it.
There is good logic behind peoples replies, most arguements like yours sound very logical ... but ... The problem is that this logic is based upon limited knowledge, lack of expirience, or simply bad assumptions.
I have been stealing for months from many different ESSes (currently i have 33 bookmarked), in an area that corresponds to about a third to half of null sec, in various times of the day and with varying freequency (anywhere from 2-3 days to a couple of weeks).
So lets see some examples of what happens in reality and how it is different from theory:
1: CCP adds ESS 2: A group of nullsec ratters is peacefully ratting in their system, and their ess has gathered a bilion of ISK. 3: A pirate comes into the system and steals their billion. 4: Ratters are furious, and decide to take action, they try to fight back and they start sharing the loot more often, at lets say 300m. 5: Their ESS now usually have about 300m and ratters share and defend the ESS. 6: A pirate comes into the system to steals their 300 milion, they fail to react or simply cannot fight him and he takes their 300 milion. 7: Ratters are again furious, they wish to find a solution and they hear from some guy in their alliance that you can stuff their ess inside an anomally and dont need to defend it. 8: Their ESS gathers 300 milion 9: A pirate comes and tries to steal the 300 milion, but he fails and dies 10: Ratters are now confident and let their ESS gather 1 bilion again 11: A better pirate comes with dirty tactics and steals their bilion 12: The Ratters are furious again, and they decide to not just have their ESS in an anomaly, but to share every 300m, defend the ess, and even pay attention to their alliances/coalitions intel channel.
Nowdays, the majority of ess are in anomalies, they get shared more frequently on lower amounts of isk, they get shared on time based on intel channels reports of neuts/hostiles , they get shared upon entry into the system, and they do get defended. The amounts that can be found at them range anywhere from 2m to 500m, with an average being around 60. Pirates can still steal from them, but it is definatelly not more profitable than other activities, it requires you to be active in contrast to afkish-ratting in a droneboat or mining, it has a greater degree of risk that most of those activites ... and, most importantly it is not as fun as it used to be when ESSes were not placed inside anomalies.
With my character, i can do exploration, droneboat ratting in a hac/bs and soon marauder, mine with perfect skills, PI, trading. What bothers me is not the amount of money i make with piracy, but HOW i make those money.
It is the gameplay that gets ruined.
|
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
348
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 03:00:03 -
[44] - Quote
Oddsodz wrote:Add new rule to the unit that states that it must be deployed within 1000KM of Stargate / Station/ Planet / Custom Office. Now the system will work as intended to provide PVP opportunities. No, it won't, unless by "PVP opportunities" you mean blues blowing up the ESS so that they don't have to deal with it.
|
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
187
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 07:17:53 -
[45] - Quote
Nah... I think they should roll back the nerf they already placed on ESS when they prevented them from being anchored in worm hole space.
Why should stealing ever be easy? |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
206
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 11:12:39 -
[46] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:Tabyll Altol wrote:The ESS is ment to encourage Fights, not to let interceptor farm the people who rat. Expecting that the "anomally will stop the pirate", while you just continue with your nullsec carebearing does not encourage any fights.This is not a question of what is doable, or how it is possible to steal from an ESS in an anomaly. It is a question of exploiting game mechanisms. Having ESS anchored inside anomalies defeats the purpose of ESS.
lol @ anomalies killing pirates
Just because you die to rats doesn't mean that anyone else is that terribad :D
|
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
473
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 13:54:10 -
[47] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote: The point is that ESSes in anomalies do not promote actual pvp activity
Neither does your almost uncatchable interceptor, what's the point of this thread? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1354
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 14:06:37 -
[48] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote: I want to actually have encounters with defenders without rats shooting at someone, i want people to chace me, i want it to be interesting and to have a fair fight from time to time.
Why do you think they would/should give you a fair fight? If they make the ESS worthwhile to defend, they will fleet up to curbstomp solo pirate trying to steal from it. Then the pirates will come with a fleet and magically, the issue of rats in an anom become moot as a fleet with support can deal with the rats... |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
69
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 00:07:27 -
[49] - Quote
accidental doublepost |
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
69
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 00:08:45 -
[50] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:Why ist this not okay, because it-¦s now hart to get in the ess with an interceptor to steal the tokens and go away?
The ESS is ment to encourage Fights, not to let interceptor farm the people who rat. Get you a propper fleet and you can shoot the rats and get the money. Get you a bigger ship with more tank and you can also get the money.
But no you want that you can farm it in your interceptor without any danger of getting shot.
No way -1
Stop crying
But it alraedy is possible to farm them with a interceptor without being shot as long as you are not in gurista space. And even in guristaspace you dont need more than 4 ceppies to do it. PvP fit nontheless. |
|
viverxia
Serenity Prime The Volition Cult
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 03:12:38 -
[51] - Quote
Your problem is that if you disallow the way they are used now (which is pretty much the only way.. every alliance that doesn't pretty much just blanket bans their use) would mean they would never be used.
Introducing another very redundant object to the crowded shelf of **** we never use (to the left of the pile of defender missiles) If you buff the turnover too much there would be nothing to steal, If its not buffed enough it gets shelved. If you increase the time to access it then pirates complain.
Without trying to sound like a broken record. Working as intended. These devices sit in a already precarious state of use and you changes would tip them into room 101.
|
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 21:11:12 -
[52] - Quote
Newly updated:
Ok, so after many of you talked about "fleets" killing anomalies i made the following experiment:
- ESS in fully spawned Sansha Hidden rally point
- Decent Skills tengu: 80% em resistance 90% thermal resistance 966 shield hp every 5 sec Cap stable Eft says 1318 def (if i have set up eft properly).
Result, in 15 seconds after i was targeted by rats, my shield was already going down too fast.
More to follow
|
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 21:31:42 -
[53] - Quote
viverxia wrote:Your problem is that if you disallow the way they are used now (which is pretty much the only way.. every alliance that doesn't pretty much just blanket bans their use) would mean they would never be used.
Introducing another very redundant object to the crowded shelf of **** we never use (to the left of the pile of defender missiles) If you buff the turnover too much there would be nothing to steal, If its not buffed enough it gets shelved. If you increase the time to access it then pirates complain.
Without trying to sound like a broken record. Working as intended. These devices sit in a already precarious state of use and you changes would tip them into room 101.
So it is better if nullsec alliances use the ESS as a "i-have-to-do-nearly-nothing" passive-boost to their income, than it being fixed because they might not use them at all?
|
Iain Cariaba
629
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 21:37:50 -
[54] - Quote
Oh Gods, are you still whining about this? Didn't the month of no one caring about this before you broke forum rules by bumping it clue you in?
Zao Elongur wrote:Ok, so after many of you talked about "fleets" killing anomalies i made the following experiment: I highlighted the part you seemingly missed. A fleet is not you alone in a tengu.
Stop being bad at EvE, or at least stop shiptoasting on forums about it.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
|
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 09:47:50 -
[55] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Oh Gods, are you still whining about this? Didn't the month of no one caring about this before you broke forum rules by bumping it clue you in?
I expect a proper reply from a ccp member of staff on the issue which is clearly an exploit of game mechanisms and defeats the purpose of the structure.
Also for your information, even if everyone would argue against me, that still wouldn't make me wrong.
Iain Cariaba wrote: I highlighted the part you seemingly missed. A fleet is not you alone in a tengu.
Stop being bad at EvE, or at least stop shiptoasting on forums about it.
A decent fleet, a carrier, battleships, and even smaller ships with expensive fits could all survive/do those anomalies. There is no doubt about that sherlock. But have you ever seen a "pirate carrier", or an ess stealing battleship or generally pirate fleets to steal from ess? lol
The issue is not feasibility, the issue is practicality!
Actual problems: - Fleets for ESS require willing Fleet members - Fleets equals division of money - Profit from stealing from ESS is uncertain - Survival of fleet deep in hostile space is uncertain - More expensive ships mean greater risk taken - More ships suggest greater chance for a defencive hunt party - Bigger ships travel very slowly, 30-60 jumps is a huge time sink
There are ways "around" Esses in anomalies, but the fact that they are ways "around" IS part of the problem and not the solution.
My tengu experiments just proves that actually solo tanking the anomaly is very hard if not impossible. So far, the only way to steal SOLO from an ESS in an anomaly is by abandoning your ship in space and all it implies about the risk , the gameplay, and the actual fun of the activity. |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
88
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 10:40:49 -
[56] - Quote
Zao Elongur wrote:The issue: People keep anchoring ESS inside anomalies, and exploit the game mechanisms to provide their ess with "defending rats", and hard to navigate structures.It is very easy for the defender to just warp to the ESS with an implantless pod, but it is very hard for the lucrative pirate to steal from them. Small ships cannot tank the rats, bigger ships are too slow to travel the 30-60 jump distances. finally, fighting players AND rats at the same time is not really pvp either. Suggestions: Prevent anchoring of ESS in anomalies increase ESS pay out to compensate for the increased risk
or kinda deal with it haters ^^ it's super easy to stel from npc guarded ess, ab interceptor can tank it, if you have biger gang, one interceptor jump from ship and go to take all and other pilot warp to the canp and pick it up.
or just ahev a gang with two logis to tank it ... it's not like you can counter it.
it's easy ... |
Hairpins Blueprint
CBC Interstellar Fidelas Constans
88
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 10:44:01 -
[57] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Actual problems: - Fleets for ESS require willing Fleet members - Fleets equals division of money - Profit from stealing from ESS is uncertain - Survival of fleet deep in hostile space is uncertain - More expensive ships mean greater risk taken - More ships suggest greater chance for a defencive hunt party - Bigger ships travel very slowly, 30-60 jumps is a huge time sink
i think the problem is you guy's wona have it easy ... and are not willing to play the game : )
stealing from ess is not a game profesion it's a thing to do while roaming. |
Jur Tissant
The TERRA Guardians of Serenity
325
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 13:36:01 -
[58] - Quote
Athryn Bellee wrote:Or just change it so that NPCs shoot player anchored items. Solves gate bubbles and ESS problems at the same time.
Bubbles yes but not everything, this would basically kill half the functionality of MTUs.
But I dunno OP, just seems like a clever use of gameplay functionality to me. |
Zao Elongur
Porphyr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 21:39:20 -
[59] - Quote
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:i think the problem is you guy's wona have it easy ... and are not willing to play the game : ) stealing from ess is not a game profesion it's a thing to do while roaming.
Practically being a market alt that never left jita, or scamming people, or suicide ganking to get items from poor victims aren't game proffesions either :P
but anyway, the point isn't about money, it is about the gameplay. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
624
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 22:38:55 -
[60] - Quote
Emergent gameplay. I was in a roaming gang that got into a nice full ESS in an anomaly earlier this week. We got a few hundred million and killed the ESS and the rats, then got a very fun fight out of it.
Apparently you don't want a sandbox.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |