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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 41 post(s) |
Eigenvalue
Suay Tii Suk Brave Collective
39
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:10:00 -
[3301] - Quote
Additional thoughts on the implications:
1) Some null professions, such as ninja gas harvesting in drug regions, will be logistically impossible now. They fully depended on being able to move carriers and rorquals to NPC null systems adjoining the drug space, projecting combat ships, harvesting, and hauling ships and harvesting in the shadows. It's implausible to fly these ships one by one through low/null, so profession dead.
2) JF logistics are being nerfed much harder than people seem to be getting. My JF route currently is 3 jumps and about 16LY total to service Brave in GE-, so round trip 6 jumps and can be handled by a single cyno alt account, and takes about 20 minutes round trip with a return of about 30m isk/trip (so about 90m/hour). That's now growing to 12 jumps round trip with 6 mids (so requires two cyno accounts) and will take 2 hours of timer burn down and 4 hours of fatigue burn down to start the next trip - bringing us to 5m isk/hour.
You would be better of mining veldspar in a venture in high sec and it will be more interesting to boot.
Instead couriers will probably have to be around 300M per load to incentivize JF pilots to haul there which will never be acceptable.
The only answer I can see is for our alliance to pull our deployment system out from the middle of the region to the edge of the region because no one can afford the logistical overhead to deploy any deeper.
Is that a problem? Maybe not, but it makes the game overall more boring because we have to then fly much further distances to defend the rest of the region, and no one will be living in any other areas of the region because there's no market close by. Space will become very big and very empty - something I thought CCP was trying to prevent -- all this work to make space more uniformly populated is for nothing if space becomes prohibitively inaccessible.
3) Timers are just really really boring. Would all the cheering subcap pilots be so hot on the changes if they included a mandatory 15 minute gate jump cooldown? Asking your most dedicated players to waste their lives away burning down timers is just plain rude.
There must be a better way to nerf force projection than to disincentive us with boredom. And frankly if there isn't - then just leave it as is.
There should *never* *ever* *ever* be a reason to make eve any slower to play or more boring.
STOP THINKING ABOUT TIMERS AS SOLUTIONS PLZ |
Alex Logan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:10:00 -
[3302] - Quote
Dear CCP
The jump fatigue idea is useless and will cripple most old players that use capitals. Remember that it is us, 5+ year characters, that make for most of your monthly subs and implicitly, salaries.
I (should I say we?) would suggest a 2nd visit on this possible "feature" as well as upon several others that could indeed use adjustment.
Best regards! A seasoned player. |
Martin T
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:10:00 -
[3303] - Quote
Can we get a time estimate on the Black Ops rebalance? I realize they are not being discussed right now beyond jump fatigue numbers similarly to the JFs, but there's been talk of this rebalance for a looong time and it's always "there will be a blop rebalance in the future." I don't care if the answer is "in two years time when all the sov stuff's been taken care of". Just give us a meaningful estimate we can look forward to. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
96
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:11:00 -
[3304] - Quote
And the ****-storm is not even calming down, but I still need to ask a serious question. You are about to make life in nullsec much harder. I dont mean warfare for PVP entities, I mean life for so-called 'citizens', who mine, build, run moon reactions and lose their ships to belt rats. And by 'much harder' - I mean MUCH HARDER, like before and after.
Do you have any plans to increase rewards as well?
Because mining 'rich' ice with 17% more isotope contents is not that kind of initiative, and even a 10% material discount at amarr outpost is not at all attractive if you cant export your products to the empire to compete with hisec bears.
So again - why would I go to nullsec except to get shot?
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Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:11:00 -
[3305] - Quote
Looks like this threadnaught is still siege green. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8438
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:11:00 -
[3306] - Quote
Dirk Solaris wrote:It's about time nullies see a little pain from all the gain of the past numerous expansions.
That's the thing that i find most exasperating here. It's not 'nullies' that will feel pain. As I said in that post, well established groups are in the BEST position to survive radical change. It's everyone else that isn't
You're literally celebrating a situation that will most likely lead to the rich getting richer, the established groups being able to gain MORE control, and higher prices for things you use (and OMG don't even get started on PLEX as alliances start to subsidize multiple character training in order to 'lengthen' their span of control counter to what these long distance jump changes expect).
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Crysantos Callahan
Control-Space DARKNESS.
24
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:12:00 -
[3307] - Quote
A few question directed at Greyscale, would be awesome to get at least a short answer what to expect:
Will you relocate racial ice or do something about the regional difference of isotope availability?
Are there any plans to create more NPC space to create more space to attack sov holders and as some kind of evacuation point for the defenders?
What about moon goo, moon distribution and T2 production? Do you want to change these things a bit to allow smaller scale alliances to provide their own stuff?
Did you already run tests with larger capital/supercapital fleets using gates and the possible bumps that will happen?
Thanks in advance! |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
396
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:12:00 -
[3308] - Quote
Ruric Thyase wrote:Yesterday:
Force projection is ruining EVE! Force projection is killing small gang PvP! Force projection is killing null sec! Force projection enables the Blue Doughnut!
Today:
OH GOD NOT MY FORCE PROJECTION WTF CPP?!
But seriously, this will hurt the JF logistics a LOT. Greyscale if you can't finish your example and state that you should slowboat a carrier 22 gates through null, you MIGht have to tweak some things
Haha it's funny how they completely omit that part, makes you wonder if they have any clue whatsoever. |
Brody Moennan
Lonewolf174 Corporation
1
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:12:00 -
[3309] - Quote
Is anyone else worried that these changes will lead to an oasis / wasteland dichotomy for the georgraphy of null once the powerblocks balance out again?
Also the jump clone deal seems uneeded. The 24hr timer and limitations of jump clone placement were enough to prevent any kind of major abuse beyond convenience when moving to a new home system or staging area. |
Lord TGR
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:12:00 -
[3310] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Lord TGR wrote: Nope. The mechanics lead us to the "blue butthole of stagnation". It was always in the cards, and there's been plenty of people who've been saying for YEARS that we're heading into what we're seeing now (me included, I've been railing for a sov system fix for more than 3 years, probably closer to 4 now).
You can blame the players all you want, but you'll be dead wrong. They're just utilizing the ruleset as far as they can to win. It's CCP's responsibility to make sure the ruleset ensure a lively and vibrant game, not the players'.
So you're saying that B0tlord and similar pacts are part of the game mechanics? Where can one find them, there's no such option under 'business' or 'social'. As for the 'burnout due to grind' thing we saw how that panned out for Test in Fountain and Delve. That's all a direct result of the ****** sov system, yes. |
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Thead Enco
Radio New Vegas
228
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:13:00 -
[3311] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote:Even with the bonus on the Jumpfreighters and Rorquals jump fatigue, i think this cutting into the logistics hugely cause of the reduction to 5LJs.
This means additional cyno spots, cyno chars. So where a single person could do the logistics and transports before, you now need several people to get this going.
If you own all this space, it may be no trouble as you can fly the cyno char through gates to the next system and open the next cyno. But if you don't what then? Moving a warfleet with several people being part of it is one thing. But moving ships like JFs or Rorquals was usually a "1 man show". So limiting their jumpange will severly limit their usability. If it stays to a 1 man show, the JF can only move on to the next system every 19-24 hours, when the cyno char can jumpclone to the next cyno spot. So a route that could be done in a single jump in very short amout of time before, now suddenly needs a complete day or even longer if you need several jumps?
The "warfare" part of those changes may be great to change the power projection, yet the changes to the "civilian" sector of this are horrible.
What if you give the JFs and Rorqual a role bonus of a hugely improved jump distance instead? So they can jump the same distances as before, or maybe even further? So you may have a huge jump fatigue afterwards, but can shrug it off as you reach your goal in a single jump and can wait it out there? Or a combination of both.. improved range, and reduced fatigue, trying to balance it out in a good way?
Quick hire this man as.a consultant before Riot does.
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
uziel99
Multiplex Gaming The Bastion
9
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:13:00 -
[3312] - Quote
Min Mar wrote:Dave Kitaro wrote:Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it? It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....
The law says nothing about taking naps for days at a time for 10-20 minutes work.
<<--- Real truck driver, with 750,000 accident free miles. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:13:00 -
[3313] - Quote
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:
QFT, let small gang pvp live again.
Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet. Small gangs of carriers? Gate-camping with intel channels, awesome idea. Yes you're fine, there won't certainly be a group of guys who'd want and be able to drop on your butts with a few dreads or supers. It's not impossible to drop on guys, just needs more planning and organization. We're in the age of "don't undock unless you got supers on standby to counterdrop" - I rather see caps used as often as BS and die more often than continue playing boring online. Please just biomass your character, it'll be fun to see you guys around here in a few weeks after your supposedly "unsubbing". There's a lot of potential fun here to be had, so why not try and discuss with devs on a more "sensible" basis about tweaking the weaknesses of it?
Read the changes. They support local defense. Hotdropping starting from a base 20LY away would be suicide for any supercap fleet - as they try to get back via gates. Yes, you will see more capitals, allot more capitals now. Enjoy. |
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:14:00 -
[3314] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:Dear CCP
The jump fatigue idea is useless and will cripple most old players that use capitals. Remember that it is us, 5+ year characters, that make for most of your monthly subs and implicitly, salaries.
I (should I say we?) would suggest a 2nd visit on this possible "feature" as well as upon several others that could indeed use adjustment.
Best regards! A seasoned player. nobody cares and if this cripples you, you're bad |
Min Mar
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:14:00 -
[3315] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:ugly inside wrote:Min Mar wrote:Dave Kitaro wrote:Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it? It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner.... i guess you could say its LOGIcal to be in the business of LOGIstics? The RL truckers dealing with those laws aren't doing logistic work? You will either spread the load more onto more player to do logistic work or lose player because you are starving at the end of a small logistical chain until your current setup can keep up. The people sharing the load the best will be able to keep themself at a higher level than those who rely on too few dudes.
That's my point: CCP is creating two additional logistical problems: fatigue (I'm ok with that) but also jump limitation (not OK). You can get around one by waiting but you need twice as many (actually 11.25/5=2.25) cynos to make a trip. Only larger alliances will have that many cyno pilots available, I don't have enough open slots in my accounts... |
Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
106
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:14:00 -
[3316] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:
QFT, let small gang pvp live again.
Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet.
Til someone comes through any of the dozens of WHs within 5LY and cynos in on top of them yes.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
826
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:14:00 -
[3317] - Quote
I find it a bit disconcerting that the fatigue timer is likely to bite people in the rear in future unforeseeable circumstances - thats not really good gameplay design. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
826
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3318] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:
QFT, let small gang pvp live again.
Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet. Til someone comes through any of the dozens of WHs within 5LY and cynos in on top of them yes.
If they do it on a gate with lowsec on the other side or a regional null gate theres a fairly high chance they can deaggress, jump the gate and then jump to an exit cyno without being caught. |
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
66
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3319] - Quote
People are complaining about having to work together to move some of the largest ships around now. This is great |
Major Trant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
938
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3320] - Quote
Wait... I've seen a negative to these proposed changes.
Amarr, my market hub of choice, is 7 LY from my base in Huola. I can no longer jump my JF from the Amarr undock directly to Huola.
In discussion with my JF corp mates we considered just slow boating through a couple of hi sec gates until we are in jump range, but that opens us to suicide ganking when we have a valuable cargo. We then highlighted that Ayeroilen would make a good intermediate jump point. This led to a number of ideas.
1. The increased difficulty of getting stuff into Huola, means the people that do go to the effort, can jack the prices up. 2. There is potential to actually create the first low sec true Market hub in Huola. 3. Ayeroilen itself has potential as a limited market hub. 4. Our enemies will have the same problem, now there is opportunity to gank their JFs in hi sec if they take the slow boat option. 5. Some enemies/neutrals may slow boat stuff into Ayeroilen or other likely intermediate low sec points, another chance to gank them.
Alternatively:
WAH WAH THIS IS ********, I'M GOING TO UNSUB...
If anyone prefers the second option, good riddens to you. CTRL-Q - Minmatar FW - Low Sec PvP - Euro TZ - New Player Friendly Contact: Major Trant In game channel: FeO Public Recruitment thread: CTRL-Q |
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Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
96
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3321] - Quote
Eigenvalue wrote:to service Brave in GE- And now consider supplying goods to Omist. |
Jen Moriarty
Snuff Box
45
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3322] - Quote
So... just a thought: Party A is being attacked by party B, while on deployment somewhere else and cannot respond on time. Party A logs on 200 pilots in ceptors to fly around attacked system to increase TiDi while recalling their fleet. Possible?
Also - how do timers stack with TiDi? A cooldown of 5min could easiy become 50 minutes if TiDi is involved |
HellGate fr
Yarrbear Inc.
40
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:17:00 -
[3323] - Quote
I guess CCP haven't used a JF before. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
476
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 14:18:00 -
[3324] - Quote
On the whole agree with most of the changes being proposed but i believe there's some serious oversights as to how players will min/max the proposed system.
- As has been mentioned before, cap/supercap jump force projection has been nerfed, but with the fact you've included a change to allow caps/supers to use gates it stands to reason large groups of caps/supers will be able to move through hostile sov space with relative impunity reinforcing system after system.
Yes it doesn't mean they can project as far but large groups like that can effectively hellicopeter-d**k through territory completely unchallenged. That might not be an actual mechanic issue with these changes but it stands to reason that not even mentioning a look at caps/supers for balance changes means you've completely overlooked this eventuality. The other change of reducing hitpoints on Sov structures is a blatant indication that you've not even thought of this either!
- The other big issue that i have is the inclusion of jump fatigue on JB's. Not in a "ohh we cannot blop people anymore" issue but for the simple fact that pushing a full fleet through systems, even with the help of JB support incurs its own lag in the form of TiDi. Surely that alone adds artificial constraints to force projection already? why compound the situation?
I understand adding jump fatigue to JBs if you're permitting caps to use jbs as not including it means theres an obvious loophole to using your jump drive, but surely the mechanic of jumping through a jump bridge and jumping through a stargate can be separated and iterated upon separately?
if not then reduce jump fatigue drastically on subcaps (with a scaling up on jump fatigue based on ship hull class). its already been said by devs that the amount of fatigue can be varied on an attribute attached to the ship. and from a lore sense you'd be more fatigued jumping several billion tonnes of mass as opposed to several millions.
- Finally JF changes are basically a nail in the coffin of people that do sterling work helping nullsec alliances. Do you really honestly believe that JF pilots do what they do because they like it? and if the could they'd want to spend more time jumping, docking, moving a cyno, lighting, undocking, jumping and so on and so forth? i can honestly and comprehensively tell you they dont. They do it for the good of their group, so making that task soo much more laborious is like kicking them in the balls for being on the whole selfless.
If this change was brought about alongside changes that showed JF usage to and from highsec would not be that necessary (because you're further increasing the ability for nullsec to be self sustaining) then i could understand. But you hadn't so it stands to reason that you don't 'get' the what/why/how of nullsec logistics in your own game.
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smokeydapot
MSE-corp Northern Associates.
12
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:18:00 -
[3325] - Quote
Davionia Vanshel wrote:You could fix (some of) the JF tears by making it so that you need to infini-point it with a Hictor - after all like Titans (T2 Dreads) and supers (T2 carriers) the JF is a T2 capital ship. The rest you can fix by leaving JF Jump Range alone.
You need to do research titans, dreadnaughts and super carriers are not T2. No invention required. No morphite.
You have single handedly shown why threads of this nature are bad. |
Roman Lynch
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
7
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3326] - Quote
Ok, so after thinking about it some more... I have to say. I like it.
You want SOV? EARN IT. You want to move things... do it the hard way, in a Charon with gates.... your nano Naglfars protecting you on the way. You want new ships... BUILD THEM YOURSELF You want to win the game... Keep your space longer than everybody else
The old meta "Can I bring my Drake?" The NEW meta "Can I bring my Moros?"
Use PI to make fuel for your POS' Use Moon Goo to make your t2 hulls fight for your right to mine. Carebears become useful in null sec. No more hot dropping a 5 man BC gang Don't move all your eggs into one basket, if your caps are 10 jumps away from one side of the space you own... your gonna have a bad time.
+1 CCP. Just tweek JF's a bit, and make a new capital ship for moving rigged ships... name it " d++rm+ªtur t+ír " and let's move on. |
Samuel Sachs
6
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3327] - Quote
When the changes are introduced then EvE is death.... |
Eigenvalue
Suay Tii Suk Brave Collective
40
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3328] - Quote
Alex Logan wrote:Dear CCP Remember that it is us, 5+ year characters, that make for most of your monthly subs and implicitly, salaries.
I'm not sure I would put it this way because it may not be true. What is true, however, is that we are the stable baseline revenue for CCP - we've been subscribed for years and years and *IF THEY DID NOTHING AT ALL* to eve we would *STILL* be subscribed in 5 years from now. Burning us is burning the cash cow and extremely risky.
On the revenues front, it seems like they are trying to avoid mega 3rd party melt down battles like B-R by nerfing force projection. However the news stories of hundreds of thousands of dollars melting down generated a huge subscriber jump and awareness of the game. I had people who had no interest in gaming asking me about EVE and were surprised to learn I played it. It was priceless marketing material that was entirely free for CCP.
Why on earth would they want to reduce such things? They should be encouraging more massive space battles!
But they seem to be rudderless with regards to marketing. The 6 week release cycle kills their semi annual marketing opportunities. I get the technology project planning strategy, but from a marketing point of view there's no big episodic "thing" to focus resources on.
CCP has never been very smart about marketing this game, but they've recently gotten a whole heck of a lot dumber, and it's probably because the engineers are running the show now. Just like accountants and marketing shouldn't be running the show, engineering shouldn't either. It should be run by all the functions responsible for a successful business. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
241
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3329] - Quote
Crysantos Callahan wrote: Are there any plans to create more NPC space to create more space to attack sov holders and as some kind of evacuation point for the defenders?
Thukker space could use some love IMO. |
Yroc Jannseen
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:19:00 -
[3330] - Quote
I'm sorry but some of these go too far.
I seem to recall CCP Seagull talking about the importance of "enablers", small groups of players that "enable" other players to enjoy the game. Well your JF/Rorq pilots are certainly in those groups. The combination of the fatigue and the range bonus is brutal. Also take a look a the number of systems now in range of Jita, it's hilariously small, so good luck lighting a cyno at either of them.
On the upside all the people who were saving money for supers or titans can now put that into JF characters, having a personal JF alt to get around the fatigue issue may become a requirement.
Also have you looked at the fact that with no bonus to jump fatigue for regular freighter hulls, the common act of bridging freighters for ihub drops, station builds and upgrades to both of those will now become more difficult. This is one of those things that again is an inconvenience for larger groups, but another big barrier for small groups.
There has to be a cap on jump fatigue/cooldown. Putting aside capitals, how will jump bridges be explained to new players?
"Over there is a jump bridge. You can use them cover great distances quickly. But you mustn't use them too much, for if you do you will get Jump AIDS and never be able to jump again,"
I think the big thing is how many of these changes make "enablers" who already spend a lot of time playing this game, often for the benefit of others, look at the potential extra time added say "screw it, this is supposed to be a game, this isn't worth it." I think that's probably the most important thing you need to look at.
But given what we are now finding out about what the CSM was and wasn't told about this change, I think what we can anticipate a bumpy ride.
As someone else in this thread put it bring on The Winter of Discontent |
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