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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 41 post(s) |
Armagast Sin Truth
Blackstone and Fairfield Transuniversal Sentinels of Sukanan Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:45:00 -
[3361] - Quote
My First Post So be Gentile (Naw that won't happen) Ok, having just read the description of the proposed new Jump Fatigue system I have one obvious question.
Instead of one pilot working up a large fatigue Index over 50 jumps, whats to stop large well organized groups from using relief pilots - say every 10 light-years - to pilot a ship in relays, so that every jump is just like the first? After all the goal of force projection is to get the Ship to its destination NOT the pilot.
Absent things I am unaware of (very high probability of that) it seems that large groups with many jump capable pilots could still be able to out project smaller groups that may have only one jump capable pilot. OR to get long distances in a short time without fatigue being a factor, just because they are a large group.
PS I don't have or use jump ships so I don't have a Dog In This Fight Yet, Just an Observation.
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
54
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:45:00 -
[3362] - Quote
CCP GREYFail & Fozzie.
hates Jump Freighters & Rorquals.. and they hate all the big spenders in the game, they hate P.L, they Hate everybody!.. they hate supers and caps dropping on one defenseless miner!... thanks to P.L cause you were the main ones that brought this nerf bat out.. hahaha.. I hope you reprocess your caps into minerals cause now they're worthless!!!!!!!!!!!!
and that is all..
back to the tear fest.
the csm was a scapegoat in this.. they even claimed they signed off on it.. lies!! lies!!! lies!!
fire them all for this.. every last one of them.. the csm are puppets! |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
3044
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:51:00 -
[3363] - Quote
Aright, just read 100 pages, have some replies.
Poultergoose4 wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:OK, I've been sitting in front of this thread for four and a half hours, I need to go home and feed myself and stuff. I'll try and check back in in an hour or two, but otherwise I'll see you all tomorrow! Once again, good job!
Thanks :)
We want you to think about exactly which system you live in.
The Ironfist wrote:CCP Greyscale once this is though and we wont or can't get to far away conflicts anymore were will we get our conflict you know content? What are you doing to make sure there will be local conflict? Because right now most nullsec space is not even worth fighting over much less holding it other then for renting it out? Are you going to address the fact that nullsec is especially worthless?
That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.
Rutger Centemus wrote:Lemme guess - you expect people to web supers into warp...?
I expect people to get an escort.
Alice LaMarke wrote:Why dont you come back in four weeks? Your forums page jump timer must be through the roof after reading all this.
Devhax, obviously.
Sheeana Harb wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: Is the balance for Black Ops final? No. Please give feedback!
Given the niche of Black Ops (jump in, kill a target and leave as fast as possible), could you please consider the jump cooldown timer affecting overall performance of Black Ops, rather than preventing it from jumping? Let's say if a pilot is in Black Ops, he can still jump, even with the 'orange' timer, but the timer itself would penalize ship's tracking, damage, resistances, speed, ect? Black Ops usually strike with an overwhelming force, where these penalties don't matter much, but when they are counter-dropped (or when targetting something bigger), the defenders would have an upper hand. edit: Hats down for going through with this CCP and I sincerelly hope you will stick with this plan, because the backlash of many null-sec players will be tough. Personally I like the changes (with the exception of anchored jump bridges) and can't wait to see how they shake up the SOV map. Well done!
I don't know we'd want to add to the complexity like that, but we're definitely still looking at BO. Thanks for the feedback :)
Rommiee wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Ncc 1709 wrote:Will cyno jammers stop caps jumping in through your gate? Nope, that's what bubbles are for. So you will be retiring cyno jammers from the game as they are now useless ?
If people stop using them entirely then yes, we'll remove them.
Manks Girl wrote:Just reading into a lot of the changes I do have to ask about the Black Ops changes.
It states that the range isn't going to be changed however it will still have the same "effects". Considering the BLOPS can jump further it is going to be penalised and the whole point for black ops is to project itself over different areas/regions undetected. This needs to be thought through a lot more as having to use gates is going to be suicide when potentially jumping into camps due to this jump lag timer.
I would propose the same sort of cool down time as the Rorq/JF or even none at all so at least they aren't nerfed into the floor to literally never being used again.
Yup, this is a thing we're going to evaluate.
Arsine Mayhem wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:OK, I've been sitting in front of this thread for four and a half hours, I need to go home and feed myself and stuff. I'll try and check back in in an hour or two, but otherwise I'll see you all tomorrow! Go check reddit. They love the changes over there. At least you have all the cry babies localized.
Tell reddit I said hi, and I'll have another read of the comments there once I'm done here :)
Hiply Rustic wrote:What entities are either not seriously impacted or stand to gain from the changes?
And wtf does this even mean?
"We expect the impact of these changes to be emergent, and as a consequence are unpredictable and will take a while to develop on TQ. This plays into our longer-term plans, as youGÇÖll see in a second!"
How can something whose effects you bluntly state you don't know fit in with your long term plans, unless your long term plans are being built on a dart board?
It fits into our longer-term plans because they allow us breathing room to react to how players use these changes in practice before we get to the next phase of changes.
If we can predict the consequences of changes we make, players will be able to (some of you are always smarter than us), and changes that can be predicted are changes that can be solved, and solved problems are boring. If we can know what the exact consequences will be for changes we're making, we've already failed.
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Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
713
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:51:00 -
[3364] - Quote
http://puu.sh/bWc5W/06119e52b8.png
thank u based greyscale https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
109
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:51:00 -
[3365] - Quote
Eigenvalue wrote: That's untrue. People sell in Jita because it's got liquidity. You sacrifice margin for liquidity. People buy in Jita because prices are better than any where else *and* there's availability of whatever you want.
You won't get that in your locally produced markets. There's no way even a large alliance has the industrial capacity to locally produce all their doctrines and fittings as well as everything else they need to produce for revenue production (ratting, anom running, etc).
Sellers also just won't see the same liquidity in a local market for their goods and they'll have a much higher inventory risk. They will also have a much greater supply risk because you'll be fully dependent on local miners/moon production/etc.
What this is equivalent to is not amazon vs local shop owners, because here's reality: local shop owners depend on the highways and interestates to supply them just as much as amazon depends on them.
What this change is equivalent to is a country voluntarily tearing up all their highways and interstates and telling everyone to live off their local land. Worked really well for the Khmer Rouge. Really enabled post-Rome Europe. Sounds fun.
If liquidity > all else then I wouldn't be able to buy anything anywhere else in the game. Nice history lesson though :D |
Monica Selle
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
6
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:52:00 -
[3366] - Quote
Lyn Fel wrote:CCP, why did you kill my corp?
Yes, I know the jump fatigue isn't as bad in a jump freighter but with the new jump ranges we will simply be unable to deliver to some systems. Our customers should expect much slower service and limited delivery areas after this change.
A million times this. As a PushX jump freight pilot I agree with this post. CCP you are killing public null freight businesses, please give us a way to deliver contracts to NPC null that don't involve jumping through several different alliance's sov space.
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
396
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:52:00 -
[3367] - Quote
faRtigue - am i first to invent this term? :) |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2809
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:52:00 -
[3368] - Quote
OMG soon my thrashers stacks will be worth gazzillions of ISK because price of EVERYTHING will go up.
Heheh, I love this thread. I don't even care about changes but some of rants are hilarious to read. Invalid signature format |
Alexis Antollare
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
6
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:53:00 -
[3369] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
The other big issue that i have is the inclusion of jump fatigue on JB's. Not in a "ohh we cannot blop people anymore" issue but for the simple fact that pushing a full fleet through systems, even with the help of JB support incurs its own lag in the form of TiDi. Surely that alone adds artificial constraints to force projection already? why compound the situation? I understand adding jump fatigue to JBs if you're permitting caps to use jbs as not including it means theres an obvious loophole to using your jump drive, but surely the mechanic of jumping through a jump bridge and jumping through a stargate can be separated and iterated upon separately?
if not then reduce jump fatigue drastically on subcaps (with a scaling up on jump fatigue based on ship hull class). its already been said by devs that the amount of fatigue can be varied on an attribute attached to the ship. and from a lore sense you'd be more fatigued jumping several billion tonnes of mass as opposed to several millions.
YES! YES YES! YES!
I love this idea. CCP - if you add in a multiplier to the jump fatigue timer that scales fatigue with the mass of the ship (maybe using a BC as a 1.0 multiplier and scaling up/down from there), this would help me get behind these changes 100%.
I like where you're going with this. I think you're just about there if you put in a scaling based on jump mass. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:53:00 -
[3370] - Quote
By the way, it would be super if we could uninstall the cynojammer upgrade from ihubs without nuking all the other upgrades (which will be way more difficult to bring in post-patch): in most cases it will no longer be worth the money. |
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Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
713
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:54:00 -
[3371] - Quote
Alexis Antollare wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
The other big issue that i have is the inclusion of jump fatigue on JB's. Not in a "ohh we cannot blop people anymore" issue but for the simple fact that pushing a full fleet through systems, even with the help of JB support incurs its own lag in the form of TiDi. Surely that alone adds artificial constraints to force projection already? why compound the situation? I understand adding jump fatigue to JBs if you're permitting caps to use jbs as not including it means theres an obvious loophole to using your jump drive, but surely the mechanic of jumping through a jump bridge and jumping through a stargate can be separated and iterated upon separately?
if not then reduce jump fatigue drastically on subcaps (with a scaling up on jump fatigue based on ship hull class). its already been said by devs that the amount of fatigue can be varied on an attribute attached to the ship. and from a lore sense you'd be more fatigued jumping several billion tonnes of mass as opposed to several millions.
YES! YES YES! YES! I love this idea. CCP - if you add in a multiplier to the jump fatigue timer that scales fatigue with the mass of the ship (maybe using a BC as a 1.0 multiplier and scaling up/down from there), this would help me get behind these changes 100%. I like where you're going with this. I think you're just about there if you put in a scaling based on jump mass.
small ships already have the advantage when it comes to fatigue in that they can move faster without jumps
no need to compound that advantage by lower fatigue as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Radd Trigon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:54:00 -
[3372] - Quote
I'm really concerned about the elimination of pod express for getting to places where you don't already have a clone (e.g., newbies joining their corps in 0.0).
Here's an idea that could address that: allow people to treat jump clones like other assets that can be contracted and shipped from station to station. Then, if you really need to get somewhere and can't get there by travel, have a jump clone shipped there. Viola, problem solved: instant travel nerfed and we still have a way to accomplish something close to the same thing, albeit with a little advanced planning.
By the way, if this was suggested in one of the other 167 pages of posts already, I apologize for repeating. |
Raelaem Eudain
Evil Turtles Chelonaphobia
1
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:55:00 -
[3373] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Raelaem Eudain wrote:WTB Triage Carrier's!!!
This change will force big alliances with sov to think twice before hot dropping 20 caps for a hurricane kill, or titan bridging 100 people on the the little cute merlin.
Think what this will do for the games economy... People will want more caps then they all ready have, the little guys (stop looking at me) can assist their 15 man BS Fleet with a triage knowing that any significant threat will be within 5 LY
Rooks and Kings can make more video's!!!! Though I did like the pipe-bomb, i liked your triage video more.
This will also force pilots and fleets that want to get to a destination consider using BS fleets again.
More caps will be wanted = economy boost More pilots wanting caps due to safer conditions (ME!!!) = economy boost More subcap fleets = economy boost
not to mention all the small alliances that want their own space
Now I read a lot of the tears so far. So u want to rat in Nyx's, and U want this and u want that. We all see how dead 0.0 is getting. People are just sitting in belts and grinding that isk. While good for your wallet, not good for economy.
Sounds like you can still do it but remember the days when subcaps meant "OH CRAP THESE GUYS MEAN SERIOUZ BISNEZ"
Means you will have to plan carefully and and use your past exp to keep your elite status of capital warfare, if you don't or fail to live up to your reputation then you are only proving that you abused something in the game that became easy.
Look at eve, everything about it is supposed to be hard, the learning curve is only for the brave of us to stick with it. If you have all ready invested this much time in the game, you will find new ways to dominate in your sov wars. I'm confident in that.
thx for reading my crap, sorry for the horrible grammar, and I was serious, I really want to buy some triage carriers cuz of this now. See post below yours - subcap stuff won't increase - the minimum requirement to be relevant will be the ability to fly a carrier in 200+ man roving gangs that can RF structures in seconds with little effort or consideration (no siege timers) - a 100 man thanny fleet can put out over 100K dps with sentries let alone fighters (upto ~330K dps against stuff you can apply fighter damage to) and have little fear of super/titan drops as they'd have plenty of heads up.
lol structures dps sure I agree. But what about all those pilots that need killing, surely we are not going to wait minutes and minutes to cap drop them like we have been, will we? No I suspect people will do more subcap roaming fleets, and I also suspect lots of killmails.
All in all this will force people to do other things to kill their enemy, and capital escalations will have to be carefully laid out, if not then lots of tears will come from the unprepared and those individuals are not keen enough will not keep their space
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
396
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Posted - 2014.10.02 14:55:00 -
[3374] - Quote
I'm envisioning a picture of a Nomad sitting stuck in Great Wildlands faRtigued on a toiled right now. |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
396
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:02:00 -
[3375] - Quote
Aranin wrote:BRAVO CCP - EXCELLENT - just way to late.
It is painfully obvious that so many of you guys never played eve pre 2007 and have no concept of what this game was really like. even with the changes its still much easier post these changes than it ever used to be.
THIS IS NEEDED. if you have only ever known the blue donut you honestly have no right to comment. This is the only way to remedy the current nullsec shitheap of carbears and RMTers.
Capital battles are fun sure, but the real fun in this game comes from conflict. conflict drives industry, it drives politics and it provides enjoyment and purpose. This needs to be accessible and right now if your not PL/N3 or CFC you cannot drop caps - its rediculous. This change just means that you need to be more self sufficient (oh god i have to work with my corp and provide for myself!? and protect myself?! oh god).
Why does a game have to be easy. a challenge is good. This change will make the game far more fun again, get your head out of the sand and realise that this change enables and drives pvp and conflict the core mechanic of enjoyable game play.
I think core of the stagnation issue is not power projection - it's that EVE is unbridled capitalism - the rich will just be getting richer :) Regardless of what rules you try to make.. anything short of redistribution of capital, powers that be will remain powers that be. |
350125GO
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
101
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:02:00 -
[3376] - Quote
Now that I'm finished with the schadenfreude over all the tears I have to say I love these changes.
It's amazing that carrier pilots think their ships should be flown without escorts. They're carriers! They're supposed to have support fleets. If you don't want to risk your ship flying, then keep it docked, don't log in, or get a damn escort.
If sov space isn't "worth" holding, then don't hold it. There are small corps/alliances that would love to have your "worthless" null space.
Oh, and please, please, please use wormholes to move your caps from one system to another. You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it. |
Heavypredator Singh
Dedicated Individuals Conditioned to Kill Mordus Angels
22
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:02:00 -
[3377] - Quote
Looking forward to killing JF of cfc - so far from pos, not able to jump again, located in predictable systems due to 5ly range. It should be fun considering that it is so much job to do logi they will jump constantly.
Going to buy another container for tears.. |
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
141
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:04:00 -
[3378] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Rutger Centemus wrote:Lemme guess - you expect people to web supers into warp...? I expect people to get an escort.
Quite frankly you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that's the end result of your changes. Pilots will simply adjust and factor in travel time. It may slow down the movement of them, it may stop people rushing across half of Eve to get in on a Super Cap fight, but it won't result in people using gates with escorts.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1566
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:04:00 -
[3379] - Quote
After reading a lot of this and elsewhere, I don't see why jump freighters or rorquals should be affected by this in any way. That in itself should shave off most of the hate IMO. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Joseph Adamamada
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:04:00 -
[3380] - Quote
I'm all for nerfing force projection of combat caps, but not so much for logistics/trade.
How about leveling the playing field everywhere in New Eden? Empire and wormhole space should not be excluded from a similar logistic nightmare that's going to hit null come November. Make Jita, Amarr, Hek and all the other hubs in New Eden seem that much further away. Give all haulers everywhere jump fatigue when taking gates/whs. Everyone should feel the pain of moving vast quantities of stuff anywhere. |
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olan2005
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
87
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:05:00 -
[3381] - Quote
dont like repeating myself much so a few key points
1 - logistics in null sec is difficult so would you consider giving the jump freighter a range bonus in order to negate the effect of this change on what is a primary logistics ship not combat and therefore has not power projection capacity . Same for the Rorqual.
2 - Add more low ends especially Mexallon and Isogen to null sec as right now most low ends especially those to must be imported damaging self sufficiency in null sec.
3 - in order to allow every to ship build equally and become self sufficient change the moon situation to allow it to spawn everywhere using the same rarity scale as you do for regular minerals. This would enable universal ship building
4 - TO SUMMARIZE UNLESS Self sufficiency is addressed promptly youre going to kill null sec industry . and make what is a minority of the population for worse off .
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Nikki Estemaire
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:05:00 -
[3382] - Quote
I like this. How about allow for easy moving of subcaps, perhaps by having JFs and normal (and maybe nerfed) carriers keep the range? Make carriers weaker in DPS and logi and let them carry more assembled subcaps and cargo.
The fleet members still have to fly out to deployment in convoys, creating more fights as well.
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Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2050
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:06:00 -
[3383] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:Shuffle moons around at the same time this comes out! I'm gonna keep this up... EVE needs more Pssshhhh |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
396
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:06:00 -
[3384] - Quote
Joseph Adamamada wrote:I'm all for nerfing force projection of combat caps, but not so much for logistics/trade.
How about leveling the playing field everywhere in New Eden? Empire and wormhole space should not be excluded from a similar logistic nightmare that's going to hit null come November. Make Jita, Amarr, Hek and all the other hubs in New Eden seem that much further away. Give all haulers everywhere jump fatigue when taking gates/whs. Everyone should feel the pain of moving vast quantities of stuff anywhere.
A game of Chess over snail mail anyone? |
Aliventi
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
768
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:07:00 -
[3385] - Quote
CCP Greyscale:
First I love these changes. I think they are exactly what Eve needs. Great job for you and the team for putting them together.
Second, I am wondering if you would be open to removing JDC for Eve. As things stand right now the limiting factor for your ability to jump from point A to point B is jump range. JDC is a very valuable skill right now. The issue is that after this goes through the limiting factor will be jump fatigue. This means that JDC, for bring a 53 day train to V, IMO really won't be worth it as it is no longer the limiting factor. A 53 day train to go from 2.2LY to 5 LY (if the 25% bonus stayed) is really underwhelming and not super useful when the limiting factor is jump fatigue.
I would rather you set the base jump range of all ships to 5LY, except BlOps getting 7.5LY, and remove JDC all together. A while back your removed Material Efficiency skill from industry to ensure everyone was competitive from day 1. Please remove JDC, set base jump range to 5LY, and allow everyone to have the same base mobility from day 1. |
Grave Digger Eriker
Grave Diggers Guild
5
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:07:00 -
[3386] - Quote
Elite Dangerous anyone!!
They're just about to release there next patch and it does not encourage all logistics pilots to quit the game :) |
Raelaem Eudain
Evil Turtles Chelonaphobia
1
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:08:00 -
[3387] - Quote
Just think, for a second... stay with me here
1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.
Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...
Just saying |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
934
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:08:00 -
[3388] - Quote
Nikki Estemaire wrote:I like this. How about allow for easy moving of subcaps, perhaps by having JFs and normal (and maybe nerfed) carriers keep the range? Make carriers weaker in DPS and logi and let them carry more assembled subcaps and cargo.
The fleet members still have to fly out to deployment in convoys, creating more fights as well.
A better solution than un-nerfing carriers is, I think, a new breed of JF that solely has a (large) SMA. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
530
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:08:00 -
[3389] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:After reading a lot of this and elsewhere, I don't see why jump freighters or rorquals should be affected by this in any way. That in itself should shave off most of the hate IMO.
Rapid transit of the 'win fleet' is only one facet of the problem at hand. Rapid safe transit of logistics is another. This clever change adresses both. |
ElectronHerd Askulf
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
9
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Posted - 2014.10.02 15:10:00 -
[3390] - Quote
I like the core fatigue mechanic - it elegantly and consistently nerfs most forms of rapid travel. I believe, however, that you should be more proactive in addressing jump clones. I realize there's a lot more that needs to be considered in addition to the travel implications, but if you're going to nerf suicide cloning, I think you should take a whack at jump clones at the same time. I also think you should take another look at the use of nigh-uncatchable interceptors as a rapid travel option, as they also allow large organizations to get pilots to pre-staged ships rapidly.
Others have mentioned the new-bro joining corp use case for suicide jumping. Please do give us some tool to enable (or replace) that singular usage of the technique.
I believe that you're nerfing jump freighter range too much, or at least too rapidly. Yes, they've not always been in game, but the ecosystem and political geography of Eve have grown around their current capabilities and I ask that you at least give us a bit less of a shock while you nerf them down. An additional, and probably more significant, issue with the 5ly range is that there are pockets of NPC space that will not be reachable without jumps in (probably hostile) sov space. This will interfere with people's ability to conduct harassment and guerilla style operations (the small fights that you intend to encourage). You can tell people to harden up all you like, but it's a bit unfair to allow them to soften over the last few years and not give them a bit of time to adjust to new realities.
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