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Faya
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Posted - 2006.08.14 12:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Faya on 14/08/2006 12:05:51 Greetings again. After having played some more 'EVE Offline' as we now call the ccg, some gray areas have come up again. Let's see if it's only my imagination and misreading the rules & cards.
- I have in my hand 'Day of Retribution' <190/240>, news, (3) Day of retribution deals 2 damage to each ship that dealt damage to a friendly ship or starbase this turn. - I have 4 ISK and no ships defending
- The opponent has 3 'Bursts' (or other generic 1/1 ships) attacking my starbase - and a Thukker Pirate Haven <103/240>, Starbase structure, +0/+0: When a ship you control deals damage to an opponent's starbase, you gain 1 and that opponent loses 1.
Now, when those bursts damage my starbase, they make me lose 1+1+1=3 ISK. The question is, can I play day of retribution in such a way that (some of) those bursts would die ?
In other words, is all ship damage to my starbase applied into the pile 'at the beginning of' the damage dealing step or can I put the 'Day of retribution' effect at the bottom of the pile first while I still have the ISK to play it ? Do the Thukker activations create a pile effect or just resolve outside of the pile ? If so, do they create a single pile or a new pile each time a ship's damage is resolved ?
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.14 12:22:00 -
[2]
The Thukkers are not activations - they alter the damage, instead. They become part of the damage's effect. All of the Bursts deal damage simultaneously, and as well as dealing damage, steal ISK from you.
Since you would have to play the Day of Retribtuion after the (simultaneous) damage is dealt, the ISK would already be gone. The Bursts would die too late to save your cash.
And to clarify, since all of the Bursts deal simultaneous damage, you cannot play your DoR 'in between' them dealing damage, either.
Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty
Easy Medium Hard Minmatar
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Faya
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Posted - 2006.08.14 12:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Faya on 14/08/2006 12:52:18 I didn't want to save my cash. I wanted to know if I could use my cash to kill the bursts or if they'd get to either steal it first, or have dealt no damage yet so DoR wouldn't kill them yet. :)
Does seem logical like this, however I'd like to know where you came up with this 'part of the damage's effect' and effects outside of the pile ? Any other opinions out there?
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Qual
Gallente XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:53:00 -
[4]
Ok, I will go with a different interpretation.
I think the sole purpus of the past tense of "that dealt damage" is to clear up when the damamge from DoR happens. That would be AFTER the damage is dealt. Had the text been "that deals damamge" the effect would be triggered on the Attack Damage stack and kill the ships before they do thier damage.
I do not think its meant to indicate that DoR can only be played after damage has actually been dealt. Thus you could play the news in response to him warping his ships in and have it in effect for the rest of the turn.
(I can see it both ways, as with many cards. SO again ruling from above needed.)
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Faya
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Posted - 2006.08.14 13:58:00 -
[5]
Yes I agree that the ships need to have dealt some damage for DoR to activate. The question was that since I only had 4 ISK, if I could have one ship do damage and then respond to the next one (before it drains me under 3 which is the cost of DoR) and kill at least that one ship.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.14 14:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Faya Yes I agree that the ships need to have dealt some damage for DoR to activate. The question was that since I only had 4 ISK, if I could have one ship do damage and then respond to the next one (before it drains me under 3 which is the cost of DoR) and kill at least that one ship.
I thought I pointed that out too - since all the damage is simultaneous, you cannot DoR until all ships have done their damage, since they'll all do it at once.
Also, the Thukker Effects don't go onto the pile, as far as Im concerned - they're just an additional effect to the damage dealing of the Bursts.
@ Qual, maybe you can play the DoR before it's relevant. I dont know, the rulebook doesnt make it clear. Standard CCG mechanics would preclude playing a card until it's relevant, though, and since DoR has no duration it will not stay in play. Hence I'd say it can only be played afterwards - although it could be played any time after the damage, even in the end phase.
Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty
Easy Medium Hard Minmatar
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Qual
Gallente XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.14 17:35:00 -
[7]
Right, no duration on that one. My mistake.
Then it can only be played after the fact. So in the case above all damage would have resolved when you can play the card. This would leave you with only 1 ISK to play the card though...
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.15 16:45:00 -
[8]
Your best way of playing it out would be:
you: you're going to withdraw? them: no you: targetting my base right? them: duh... you: ok
you play DoR, you lose some isk due to thukker, they lose their ships.
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 14:46:00 -
[9]
1) Result step: All attacking ships deal damage to the starbase. 2) The damage is dealt and Thukker Pirate Haven's pending ability is put on the pile. 3) While the TPH ability is on the pile I add Day of Retribution to the pile. 4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
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Veelok
Harbingers of Sarrow
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tallest
4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
I assume you mean 1 ISK? Since after playing Day of Retribution he'd only have 1 ISK left in his wallet.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Veelok
Originally by: Tallest
4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
I assume you mean 1 ISK? Since after playing Day of Retribution he'd only have 1 ISK left in his wallet.
I guess Tall didnt check the OP, but rather a farther down one where wallet is not mentioned, so really that's just splitting hairs. But in this case, the defender would lose 1 ISK, and the attacker would gain 3. You dont actually 'steal' the ISK per the card text; he loses it, and you gain it as a seperate part of the effect.
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Veelok
Harbingers of Sarrow
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Posted - 2006.08.16 19:25:00 -
[12]
Touche.
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.17 06:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tallest 1) Result step: All attacking ships deal damage to the starbase. 2) The damage is dealt and Thukker Pirate Haven's pending ability is put on the pile. 3) While the TPH ability is on the pile I add Day of Retribution to the pile. 4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
This looks really illogical.
The TPH ability says : When damage is dealt ! So the isk would disapear in the result step in point 1 meaning you will not have ISK left to play the DoR after damage is dealt !
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Qual
Gallente XanCom
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Posted - 2006.08.17 08:38:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Qual on 17/08/2006 08:38:42
Originally by: Fretegir
Originally by: Tallest 1) Result step: All attacking ships deal damage to the starbase. 2) The damage is dealt and Thukker Pirate Haven's pending ability is put on the pile. 3) While the TPH ability is on the pile I add Day of Retribution to the pile. 4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
This looks really illogical.
The TPH ability says : When damage is dealt ! So the isk would disapear in the result step in point 1 meaning you will not have ISK left to play the DoR after damage is dealt !
Well, its a timing thing.
Here is a bit more explanation:
Both TPH and DoR cant be played before the damage pile has reslved. (The damage is not considered "dealt" before that, be course something in that stack could prevent it from beeing dealt at all.)
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.17 08:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fretegir
Originally by: Tallest 1) Result step: All attacking ships deal damage to the starbase. 2) The damage is dealt and Thukker Pirate Haven's pending ability is put on the pile. 3) While the TPH ability is on the pile I add Day of Retribution to the pile. 4) The pile is resolved, from top to bottom. Day of Retribution resolves and destroys all the Bursts, then TBH resolves and steals 3 ISK.
This looks really illogical.
The TPH ability says : When damage is dealt ! So the isk would disapear in the result step in point 1 meaning you will not have ISK left to play the DoR after damage is dealt !
That was what I thought to begin with, too; the Thukker effect is part of the damage dealing, not a seperate effect.
But now it's been clarified as to how these things work - basically, *everything* goes on the pile regardless of whether it's damage, warping, card effects, playing a card, etc. Then they resolve in pile order.
It's not the most clear or easy to get your head around, but my cardinal rule at the moment is to put every single little thing on the pile, whether you'd normally expect it to be something that goes off in a stacked manner or not.
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.08.17 11:40:00 -
[16]
Thukker Pirate Haven (2 ISK) (+0 Income) (+0 shield) When a ship you control deals damage to an opponent's starbase, you gain (1 ISK) and that opponent loses (1 ISK)
The rulebook has this to say about pending abilities:
"Pending abilities start with ‘when’ or ‘at’. It means that when the required circumstances arise, the ability is played on the pile."
I hope this clears some of the confusion about abilities going on the pile.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.17 12:18:00 -
[17]
Wow, how on earth did I miss that sentence? That clears up just about every question that I've asked so far.
Thanks again Tallest.
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:18:00 -
[18]
ah yes that helps
thinking further:
opponent's 3 Ships deals 1 damage each, this puts 3 damage on pile ( as in example on page 26 of rulebook) Then happens the adding of the effect from TPH on the pile. You then play the DoR in the same pile.
noone adds things to the pile. DoR effect gets resolved doing nothing because no damage has been dealt yet (comes later in the same pile) YOu then loose 3 isk You then recieve 3 damage .
End result: you get to play DOR but with no effect.
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.08.17 13:35:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Tallest on 17/08/2006 13:38:20 No, that is a wrong interpretation of the rules.
The pending ability of Thukker Pirate Heaven doesn't trigger until after the damage is already dealt. To make this absolutely positively clear, the damage does indeed go on the pile. But what you fail to realize is that the damage hasn't been dealt until after the pile has been resolved. As soon as this pile finishes, the damage has been dealt and TPH starts another pile.
This means that the damage has already been dealt when TBH goes on the pile and you are free to add Day of Retribution on top of that pile before you lose the ISK.
Damage on the pile is merely waiting to be dealt. This the perfect time to prevent it or redirected it with abilities like those on Guardian or Basilisk.
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Fretegir
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Posted - 2006.08.17 15:50:00 -
[20]
With you last explanation the answer is now clear and not open for discussion ! Thats what i was aiming at !
No further romm for interpretation is what card games need !
Thanks for the eleborate explaining now please put it in a sticky !
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Sarqindi
Minmatar Startech Allegiance Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.18 12:32:00 -
[21]
What does matter though, is if ALL damage goes to the Pile as 1 object of 3 damage in this case, or as 3 separate objects of 1 damage.
If there are 3 separate 1 dmg objects, then it the after the damage from the 3 Bursts goes to the pile, the pile starts resolving with the 3rd (top of pile) Burst damage first.
This will trigger Thukker Pirate Haven (TPH), and the Pile would now (top-to-bottom) be: TPH, B2 dmg, B1 dmg.
TPH will resolve, stealing 1 ISK, after that The second Burst damage will resolve, once again triggering TPH. TPH resolves, then the final Burst damage resolves, triggering TPH.
If this is the actual way to interpret the damage dealing, then you would never be able to play Day of Retribution and get rid of all of the Bursts. |
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.08.18 13:18:00 -
[22]
The damage goes on the pile as one object.
Just like in the damage dealing step, where the rulebook states: "All ships deal damage simultaneously to their designated targets."
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Veleth
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Posted - 2006.08.29 00:10:00 -
[23]
When you place an effect on the pile, does the source go with it? Rather, if a card uses an effect that goes into the pile, can I remove the source of the effect to remove the effect from the pile?
Example: I warp into an enemy home region. Opponent uses EMP Minefield to force me to warp a ship back home. Can I play a Mind Clash to disable the Minefield, or since the effect is already on the pile do I lose out?
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.08.29 11:02:00 -
[24]
The effect is already on the pile so removing the source doesn't do anything.
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Thkiir
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Posted - 2006.09.01 01:58:00 -
[25]
Since this seems to be a nice collection of pile questions, I may as well ask mine here:
Are "if" phrases also pending abilities? For example,
Originally by: Sansha's Scout Outpost If another location is played into this region, return Sansha's Scout Outpost to its owner's hand.
Is warping a ship an action (that is, does it go on the pile)? For example, can I use The Tierijev Pocket's ability in response to an opponent trying to warp his/her ships in?
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Tallest
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Posted - 2006.09.01 14:22:00 -
[26]
Yup. When you want to warp your ship, the warp goes on the pile and then your opponent can activate the Tierjiev pocket.
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