|
|
| Author |
Topic |
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
    |
Posted - 2006.08.14 21:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: iqplayer on 14/08/2006 21:33:25
You know, we used to play this game when I was young, where you told a friend a 'secret', and they told another friend, and so on, until the 'secret' made it's way back to the original teller.....
That game reminds me of the Eve forums far, far too often.
So, to help out those who still think the sky is pink and will fall at any moment:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=369460&sid=1065117656
 Originally by: Mephysto
Chat is not an exploit, nor is players in system on the map. These will not be changed for the foreseeable future either.
Any questions?
 |
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.14 21:51:00 -
[2]
Edited by: iqplayer on 14/08/2006 21:51:41
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: iqplayer
Any questions?
Yes... I need all the devs postings emailed to me so I dont miss them. Can you solve this? :)
Ohhhhh, hard one...... well, how about a split? I can't do email, but maybe this will help?
Eve-Search: Dev Post Finder
|
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 17:47:00 -
[3]
I think most of the people that keep whining about this change have absolutely no idea of the changes it would cause to current game mechanics. Removing or changing the local that we have now would affect every single person in game, for both good and bad.
Note: I actually would favor a change to local, but *only* if systems to replace most of it's functionality were implemented first.
To people saying the 'big' alliances are overpowered - you mean because your 5 man fleet can't destroy the whole alliance? I think you need a reality check - 5 people, or 10 people, or 100 people even, should stand no chance against 1000 or more. Yes, I argue vehemently that alliances need more tools to make them stronger, because at the moment there is very little that an alliance of 1000 people can do to track down just a single hostile with cloak inside their sovereign space. I know that ASCN spent days chasing a hostile using this exact setup - and while one of our gangs eventually got the kill, the only reason they got it was because the pilot made a stupid mistake (and for all I know, he probably lagged out).
The changes to 'pilots in local' on the map already favors fast moving attackers with almost no benefit to defenders - I'd have rathered they removed it completely than to give such a one sided benefit.
As others have mentioned, mining especially is a labor intensive job that is limited to just a few areas in 0.0 with ores worth harvesting. Now, Oveur did allude to changes in that system as well, and making mining a worthwhile endeavor in most 0.0 systems would help even out the changes that removing local would make - but not totally, because you still have to have a station (or refine at the joke that is a POS refinery).
Defenders *should* have an advantage. Someone who is willing to spend billions to build up their space should be far better off than an attacking fleet that's put a few hundred mill tops into their attack. Alliances who have spent months building their assets should have ways to defend them against attackers. It's just like the argument around skillpoints.... do you really think a month old character should be able to do all the things that a 3 year veteran can? If they could, where would the benefit of sticking with Eve and building your character for 3 years be?
The group that would benefit the most from removing/nerfing local would be the small ganker gang who runs/logs off as soon as they meet resistance. Yes, they'll encounter some 'disadvantages', but the scanning systems that are in place now in Eve are sufficient for that task. On the other hand, I'd love to see anyone try to defend a mining party for 4-5 hours using the existing scanning interface.
Changing local is not bad, of itself. Changing local before the rest of Eve is adapted for it will result in havoc.
|
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 18:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Sounds like guerilla warfare to me.
Perfectly desirable, perfectly legitimate as a tactic. Or do you want game mechanics changed so that big alliances can see cloaked ships in their soveriegn space?
Guerilla tactics WORK, they work militarily in RL, and they work in this game we play called EVE. You want alliances to be invincible. How dull, and how totally unrealistic.
No, that's your interpretation of what I wrote, which happens to be quite incorrect. And yes, you might have been able to pick that up, since I did say that I was in favor of changes to local overall, but that other parts of Eve needed adjusting to fit first.
Yes, I do have a problem with cloak. Do I think that I should be able to click a button, see a cloak, get an immediate warpin point, and blow them up? NO. Do I think that it's fair that with the same 1 button click, a hostile character becomes untouchable for as long as he chooses, with no way to ever catch him? And do I even need to answer that question?
Guerrilla warfare *is* a valid tactic in the real world, and it should be in Eve. But it should still be balanced. For every tactic, there should be some way to fight against it. The problem that I see at the moment, is that Eve already favors the agressor to some extent - though at present, not so far as to unbalance things completely.
Changing local (which as I pointed out, is a very radical change) without making major changes to other game mechanics, will cause some very bad effects because it will add more of an advantage to the aggressor than it will to the defender.
In a game where it's already almost impossible to pin down an enemy, it's my opinion that it will tip the balance quite drastically.
|
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 19:18:00 -
[5]
Edited by: iqplayer on 17/08/2006 19:24:31
Originally by: Butter Dog
I can't really see all PvPers in EVE running back to empire to mine Scordite because there are more and better fights to be had in 0.0 following a local nerf. Can you?
I would also question the 'more and better fights'. I seriously doubt it. Noone wants to fight a battle they think they'll lose. That's why people want intel, to try and evaluate whether they can win. Not having that intel (or making it much harder to get) won't encourage the battles, it will encourage holding back the fleets while trying to gather more intel.
Edit: Plus, this change won't affect large fleets (who already have the numbers and the cov ops pilots to get intel) nearly as much as the smaller groups, such as npc'ers and miners. A good argument could be made for this change causing mining to slow down substantially in 0.0. Slowing down mining would tend to raise the prices of high end minerals, which in turn would raise the prices of ships. Higher ship prices tend to discourage fighting. So, it's very possible that this change could have a very detrimental effect, instead of 'more and better fights'.
My point, overall, is that this needs to be very well thought out and planned. Local is a very basic, and very relied upon function. One of the first things 0.0 pilots learn is to leave local open at all times. To remove such a cornerstone of Eve life will without doubt cause major change in the game.
|
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 21:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
iqplayer, and when 800 kill 3000 in a matter of a week? You know this just happened, and will happen again. Favouring the 800 even more strongly is not a good idea. Defenders DO have advantages, especially the armed supersafespots which are POS.
Phew, slow down a bit there, jumping so quickly between topics makes it really hard to follow your points :)
TBH, I've not seen any engagements lately where the '800 kill 3000 in a week', though we did see RA 'hold off' the Coalition + ASCN - I think this might be what you're talking about, but then again, the POS's that were put into reinforced were only saved because the assault was called off. Apparently the Dread losses were more than the attackers could bear. Lag was very bad in that engagement, but other than POS guns, lag affects both sides. I'm not sure that engagement would have turned out very different if there had been no lag.... and yes, I was there, I was in a BS, and I was fighting at the last POS to be put into reinforced - and even thru the horrendous lag, I came home with my Tempest intact and a kill to my name :D
But I think (I'm not sure, tbh, after your statements, as they seem to go back and forth) that we're arguing the same point here. There are some 'issues' in Eve atm, but overall things are fairly balanced. Lag needs some addressing, and POS warfare needs some love - fixing the first issue would go a long way to fixing the latter, imho. Dropping local, or nerfing it though, is such a major change, that unless a lot of thought is put into it, I think it could upset the balance of the entire game.
I disagree with you, about Defenders having an advantage, and the above engagement should go a long way to prove that. All it takes is a lot of isk to plop down 30/40/50 POS towers, and poof, you win. And there's not a heck of a lot the Defender can do about it.
But more importantly, and more at the heart of this topic, so far the changes people are putting forward are more in favor of the attacker, especially the small ganker attacker, than the defender. From where I stand, I can't see how this is going to help the balance in Eve for the good......
|
iqplayer
Caldari
Dragon's Rage
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 21:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: wystler
How about you wait for the local changes to be introduced and try the system scanning before you all start doomsaying and predicting the end of EVE as we know it?
No?
Worth a try 
Most of the time I'd agree with you Wystler, but to be fair, we've seen a lot of things released in a very 'broken' state in Eve, and once again, this change has the power to change things pretty radically in Eve. Should those of us who love the game wait until it's too late to do anything about it, in the blind faith that it will come out right?
Or to put it more bluntly, it was only the testing of a few dedicated players that averted the major problems with Freighter's dropping cans. That was a change that actually had the power to crash entire nodes in the game. Were the players wrong to question CCP on such a change? Would you have rather dealt with the petition queue's after the fact?
The fact is, that on one hand we have a dev stating 'local won't be changing in the forseeable future', now we have Oveur seeming to indicate that it will change, without offering much in details. To me, this smells very much like the (imho) rushed Freighter changes, and I'm worried it will have the same consequences.....
|
|