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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
139
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Posted - 2014.10.13 18:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
So being Grr Goon as I am, it didn't take me long to stumble on Gevlon Goblin. Now unlike his many detractors, I do not find most of his blog posts crappy. In fact, reading his posts weekly for many months now I have only run across a couple that I thought were just rank bad observations with bad commentary and bad solutions. I do admit that a great number of his posts don't have much value other than for entertaining reading and comedy. A large number of them, however, I find fairly astute posts about the state of Eve, whether they be about Goons or not.
Since I have been reading him, though, I've noticed two really major contributions he's made to the game. The first involves his very detailed collections of massive amounts of statistical data involving his archenemy the CFC and the many observations that he has concluded from this data, which he pays for and collates to a degree not done by anyone else in the game. The result has been a well-supported line of thinking around the idea of the vibrancy of piracy in Eve, the value of NPC space, small fleets as a source of good fights, and all sorts of ideas that have inspired groups from Pasta to MoA to BL and others, not just in fighting the CFC but in eking out a fun form of Eve whether fighting N3 or other pirates or whoever. His ratting data has cast the light on high sec as a valuable subscriber source as well. After he put out these observations I definitely became a fan, and continued to happily read his standard posts about funny kill mails and his rallies to cause chaos for the CFC.
Yesterday, though, I read what I think may be Gevlon's second big doozie of a post or idea that has significant consequence for Eve as a whole. I want to post about it here because I think a lot of players in Eve are being duped into crying their way toward their own demise, and people can really benefit from understanding what Goblin said. It was a watershed post. Frankly, I had already been reading him ***** about what he is calling RMT efforts in previous posts on his blog. But with his latest post he put things into a perspective beyond his previous rants.
I'm not posting his post or making too many detailed references because I don't want this post to get locked. Suffice it to say he illustrated how leaders of large alliances and coalitions have a financial interest in seeing Eve grow just as much as the devs do, and that the path that they have taken is to create a situation where they can create content for their noobs and members without real consequences for them or their members. The effect is that the leading players of the game, out of personal interest, are trying to turn Eve into a theme park type game similar to wow, where the dungeon instances are run by the player leaders. This may result in growth for Eve, but will damage Eve's uniqueness and ultimately harm Eve's ability to survive in the face of competition from other games looming on the horizon.
This affects all those who may have been convinced to be outraged by CCP's efforts to damage the major coalitions through travel and sov changes. So to the devs, I would like to say that Eve's survival ultimately depends on it remaining a niche game. Hopefully it will be a big and long-lived niche game. But frankly, in the world of MMOs, most games are like checkers, and most MMO players are kids who want to play checkers. Eve, however, is like chess, and while it has succeeded in cultivating a player base that has grown for the most part and has remained extremely loyal and long-lived, it is a player base that has come to and enjoys Eve because it is like chess. There is real intelligence involved in 'winning' and there is real consequence to losing. Some parts of Eve are annoying, but some forms of sport involve hard work and dedication. Have you talked to surfers who get up at 4 AM to surf in 50-degree shark infested waters? These are the players we want to find and retain. They are the kinds of players who will play the game for decades despite job changes, marriage, kids, all that.
So if you're an eve player, are you going to unsub because a nerf is on the way that will upset your game of checkers that Mittens built for you? Or are you willing to actually devote resources and strategy to hang on to a smaller piece of the pie that is going to be attacked by players who had no chance before? |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10902
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Posted - 2014.10.13 18:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reporting for Lock. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4861
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Posted - 2014.10.13 18:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
tl;dr
When you build a wall of text, add a summary in the first paragraph to indicate it is worthwhile reading. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
599
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Posted - 2014.10.13 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Reporting for Lock.
Reporting for sexyness. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
576
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gevlon's analysis is basically correct.
You just have to note how all the coalitions instead of fighting their equals are piing onto the last independent small guys on Provi. PL dropped what, 50 supers and a titan on a single rep carrier worth 1bil last night? Something like that? Such content, much elite, as they say.
Anyhow, to answer your question, no I will not unsub because of the nerf.
Anything that prevents big guys from interfering all over eve is a good thing in my book. nerfs dont go far enough in my opinion. |
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1737
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts.
OP, a few comments from a forum moderation standpoint. This thread is okay to continue as is, but the three paragraphs devoted to talking about the blog and its author rather than discussing its contents may result in a bulk of responses being emotional and non-constructive. You could help by editing to put less of an emphasis on that, or to include a tl;dr of some kind (as the post is rather long).
That said, CCL will keep an eye on the thread and clean it as necessary. Please keep comments polite, on topic, and constructive, everyone. ISD LackOfFaith Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums. |
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Seven Koskanaiken
The Minutemen The Bastion
1359
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm going to do as I'm told by whoever pays my SRP. |
Remiel Pollard
Layman's Terms.
5746
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm going to do what I want and pay my own SRP. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
stoicfaux
5327
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Links or the blog(s) in question do not exist. Seriously, it's common courtesy to link such things. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
140
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Links or the blog(s) in question do not exist. Seriously, it's common courtesy to link such things.
Well since talking about the post doesn't warrant a lock, here is the post.
Keep in mind that it is Gevlon doing his typical inflammatory thing. However, the point stands. |
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10903
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Interesting .... ... but do I now really have to read his drivel? :/
I mean ... it's Gevlon Goblin! -.-'
Oooookaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy............................. .......... still better than reading James' bullcrap. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10903
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well the first thing that came to my mind after reading a few lines, was ...
Death to Dojos .................................................. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
742
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ah GevlonGoblin, the greatest Texas sharpshooter of them all. "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10903
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Okay so I read through the whole post .................... ............. and it makes sense.
Can we ban them all?
lol inbefore the goons come and crap into this thread. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2268
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
In essence Gevlon's point is that the "fun" of dropping a disproportionately large force on a smaller force at any arbitrary point on the map at any arbitrary time will lead eve to it's death.
He's not wrong.
The "fun" of the large blocs is unsustainable. Don't believe me? Just look at all of the mewling on these forums from those same sov players bemoaning a lack of ~content~ over the past nine months. |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10904
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:In essence Gevlon's point is that the "fun" of dropping a disproportionately large force on a smaller force at any arbitrary point on the map at any arbitrary time will lead eve to it's death.
He's not wrong.
The "fun" of the large blocs is unsustainable. Don't believe me? Just look at all of the mewling on these forums from those same sov players bemoaning a lack of ~content~ over the past nine months. These people are carebears......... ...... nullbears, to be exact. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
140
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Okay so I read through the whole post .................... ............. and it makes sense.
Can we ban them all?
lol inbefore the goons come and crap into this thread.
LOL. Well yeah, I do think CCP made a mistake letting Mittens back into the game after 30 days. Now Manfred Sideous, who wouldn't take a CSM spot because of real life issues, is an example of a leader who plays his part in Eve out of true dedication to the sport of it rather than funding his website, is an example of a leader who is a bit more credible. And note that Manfred openly stated that he as for all out war between N3PL and CFC and his proposed solution for null sec was far more draconian than anything CCP has come up with, basically limiting a cyno jump to an adjacent gated system.
But seriously, this isn't specifically to bash Mittens or goons or plug Gevlon. I have two aims. One is to invigorate CCP to keep up their program of refining Eve into a game that delivers on its stated goals of true competition, real strategy, and real risk and consequence. The second is to open the eyes of line members to an understanding that they really don't want to be playing Eve in order to log in and press F1 but to return to a game of real consequence and reward and that doing so will involve a change in the status quo, and that CCP is orchestrating this. |
Jess Tanner
Hard Knocks Inc.
141
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Posted - 2014.10.13 19:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
TL;DR. Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back.
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10905
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 19:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:... What tells you that most of the scrubs ... ... you call them line members ... ... aren't just carebears?
I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2270
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote: The second is to open the eyes of line members to an understanding that they really don't want to be playing Eve in order to log in and press F1 but to return to a game of real consequence and reward and that doing so will involve a change in the status quo, and that CCP is orchestrating this. Spitting in the wind, man. Spitting in the wind.
Look at it from a line members perspective: Your make isk in your afktar with ease. Things are good. Your favorite FC takes out a fleet, and all you have to do is listen and push a couple buttons. Things are good. You and your 200 buddies just popped some 20 man frigate gang. Things are good. You lost your ship to some ~1337 Pvpers~, your alliance replaces it. Things are good.
The plain and simple truth is, most line members have no incentive to change the status quo. They like it. It's easy. Trouble is, a lot of other people are starting to like it too. As more people join the blocs, you get fewer small guys to drop on. Fewer targets, less "fun." Of course, the two blocs could slug it out, but that won't happen. Because that wouldn't be easy.
People start to complain, ah the struggles of blue-ing everyone within 50 jumps. |
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10905
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote: The second is to open the eyes of line members to an understanding that they really don't want to be playing Eve in order to log in and press F1 but to return to a game of real consequence and reward and that doing so will involve a change in the status quo, and that CCP is orchestrating this. Spitting in the wind, man. Spitting in the wind. Look at it from a line members perspective: Your make isk in your afktar with ease. Things are good. Your favorite FC takes out a fleet, and all you have to do is listen and push a couple buttons. Things are good. You and your 200 buddies just popped some 20 man frigate gang. Things are good. You lost your ship to some ~1337 Pvpers~, your alliance replaces it. Things are good. Carebears ... ... like those in RvB ... and CODE ... EVEUNI ....... BNI ....................... I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2270
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote: The second is to open the eyes of line members to an understanding that they really don't want to be playing Eve in order to log in and press F1 but to return to a game of real consequence and reward and that doing so will involve a change in the status quo, and that CCP is orchestrating this. Spitting in the wind, man. Spitting in the wind. Look at it from a line members perspective: Your make isk in your afktar with ease. Things are good. Your favorite FC takes out a fleet, and all you have to do is listen and push a couple buttons. Things are good. You and your 200 buddies just popped some 20 man frigate gang. Things are good. You lost your ship to some ~1337 Pvpers~, your alliance replaces it. Things are good. Carebears ... ... like those in RvB ... and CODE ... EVEUNI ....... BNI ....................... None of those entities take all of their friends across the map to leverage their disproportionate force for "fun".
Although one of those entities has been on the receiving end of the "fun" suppository for quite some time now, in a "game preserve". |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10905
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:None of those entities take all of their friends across the map to leverage their disproportionate force for "fun". Although one of those entities has been on the receiving end of the "fun" suppository for quite some time now, in a "game preserve". Oh nono ...
It's not about the entities, sorry ... it's about the people.
I've noticed this a while ago but now it makes sense on a different scale. People in RvB, who cry for lack of FCs ... as much as everywhere else. Fleetbears, or F1bears. They're in it for easymode fun, not for challenges.
That's what I meant. This group fo people grew and grew over the last years and it's this group of people who whines about afk cloakers and about lack of "content" and about lack of "income".
Basically ... carebears. These people are actually bad for the game.
I'm just ... connecting dots. I keep reading his blog and ... wow ... ... I kind of feel ashamed now that I never considered reading more about his stuff.
People even told me I should talk to him, because he's nuts but dedicated.
He delivers data. And it makes SENSE too!
Gonna keep reading... I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The Conference Elite CODE.
1074
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
This is an example of Gelvon's good posting? What?
He starts off with an unsubstantiated assertion that all alliance leaders engage in RMT, and then proceeds to claim that eve cannot be played for fun. If eve is not meant to be fun, then what is it for? Some players enjoy large fleet battles, and to those players the upcoming changes might not be in their interests. On the other hand, as gelvon points out, smaller entities will have more of a chance. Why is it that these entities are not supposed to have fun?
I strongly disagree with any claim that having fun in eve cannot be in conjunction with actions that have lasting consequences. No one would be playing this game if they did not enjoy it, and I promise that very few players have a financial incentive to play eve.
To quote one of the comments that said it better than I did:
Quote:This very logical and fundamentally wrong.
You can't have a game as large as Eve without an inherently fun aspect in it. Even games that are highly competitive by design have fun aspects to them. Usually in the form of competition having this fisceral "feel-it-with-your-body" kind of feel, which makes matches in a game like, say, Street Fighter both fun to watch and fun to participate in.
I would agree with an argument against null force projection that would go like this: "this creates a game environment which is only fun for those currently at the top". I would further reinforce this argument by saying: "and this also stops being fun for the top tog pretty soon, too. Unless he earns RL cash from it"
However, you seem to go unnecessarily far and take a decidedly anti-fun stance. I find that way too extreme, and also unsustainable when it comes to design of actual game products. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13603
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Grr goons, now with more numbers. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2270
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grr goons, now with more numbers. What specifically to you disagree with in his most recent post, if you don't mind my asking? |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2270
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:*stuff* Reading comprehension, bro.
"Fun" = dropping a disproportionately powerful force against a smaller one anywhere in eve.
Specifically mentioned here:
Quote:They also see that these coalitions together gank smaller and upcoming alliances, so they did the best they could: nerfed long-range travel that allows the empires to hit with full force anywhere. Now small but competent groups can fight locally, facing only locally living Sov-holders. They can chase the "for fun" players back where they belong: to highsec to make ISK and to lowsec to roam for their "fun". |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10905
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:words lol CODE.
CODE = Goons ... sorry, dismissed. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13603
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:Grr goons, now with more numbers. What specifically to you disagree with in his most recent post, if you don't mind my asking?
He is an avid grr goon poster who will post anything to simply speg about us. Seriously, do you honestly think the average line member is happy with the current state of sov and wants to keep it intact? When at any point have we asked for CCP to make this game safer or to bring in instancing? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2272
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Posted - 2014.10.13 20:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:baltec1 wrote:Grr goons, now with more numbers. What specifically to you disagree with in his most recent post, if you don't mind my asking? He is an avid grr goon poster who will post anything to simply speg about us. Seriously, do you honestly think the average line member is happy with the current state of sov and wants to keep it intact? I think the average line member wants to shake things up just enough to create a number of small targets around him to farm without actually disrupting *his* coalition, and without disrupting *his* isk-making operations.
I think the average line member doesn't want N3 and the CFC dissolved. I think they want to have their cake and eat it too. The other guy should disband, but their coalitions is perfectly fine.
If line members, as a whole, didn't want coalitions then they wouldn't exist, simple as that. No, the line members just don't want the other guys coalition to exist. |
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