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Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3207
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heyo! Some of you might remember me spending a good bit of time around these parts, but I took a break starting a few months ago. Anyway, I've been monitoring Eve and the incoming changes are pretty great. So great, that I'm returning to try my hand at founding and running another swashbuckling PvP corp.
This leads to my question: what are the expectations of a small PvP-focused corp in an alliance in nullsec? Also, what are teh expectations for its members? I realize the answer changes from alliance to alliance, but it's subjective so I'm asking it anyway.
More details:
I would like to run a corp basing in nullsec and focusing on "roaming" PvP -- using small forces to secure nearby friendly space or attack hostile space (and its residents). I realize that "hey, we're a small gang roaming group, can we use your station for staging?" is unlikely to get a "yes" since the owners of the space gain nothing out of it. So... what would they want to gain out of it?
What are your thoughts on it? What expectations should I plan for? Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4699
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 20:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
\o/ Welcome back Petrus, wondered what happened to you.
What is expected of a PvP corps?
* For the alliance...safety and activity. * For its members...activity (roams, fleets...what ever).
What is expected of its members?
* Activity * Willing to lose ships * Willing to train into and fly doctrines. * Willing to listen to that asshat that is the FC...at all times.
What to expect you need to get "friendly" with current holders?
Either:
* A very good track record. * Very deep pockets (aka rent). Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
205
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wb! Not sure how much input you'll get from this section, but here's my .2 ISK:
Null sec PVP corps on the small side will need to be able to field fight generator ships ( handful of dreads at least ) You will need some logistics to supply the Npc station for your members ( amount really depends on the type of player in your corp, some may be perfectly comfortable hauling in their own stuff ) You will need med clones in a station or as nearby as is expected Nearby content, I.e close enough to harass the local SOV holders / neighbors
NPC null is where groups go to grow or die however. You will either attract and build a group of folk having fun together or everyone will get annoyed and break away back to their own thing.
I suspect you can make it work with anything as long as you got the right people, this short list is just from my time on the other end of the stick.
Biggest annoyance will be finding office space near a med clone facility from my limited experience. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5754
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
o7 Welcome back. =]I[= |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3207
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:\o/ Welcome back Petrus, wondered what happened to you. Acute Bittervet Syndrome. Even though I love Eve, its community, and its ideals, I was not able to find anything fun to do on a day to day basis, so I figured it was time for a break. The new changes have done a lot to make me excited again, so maybe it's time to make a glorious return.
For a bit more context on this topic: my first 1-2 years in Eve were spent by and large in nullsec, living in Catch/Providence with Ushra'Khan, fighting CVA+friends. I know how nullsec works on a day to day basis and on a personal level, but I was never involved in managing the corp or alliance, so I don't know how that differs from my previous experience running a corp.
J'Poll wrote: What is expected of a PvP corps?
* For the alliance...safety and activity. * For its members...activity (roams, fleets...what ever).
Not a problem.
J'Poll wrote: What is expected of its members?
* Activity * Willing to lose ships * Willing to train into and fly doctrines. * Willing to listen to that asshat that is the FC...at all times.
That bit about doctrines is interesting. Even though I understand the point of doctrines, I never loved adhering to them and would prefer to run support roles: scouting, tackling, catching stragglers, or even hauling ammo to the fleet during an unexpectedly-long structure bash. I don't personally really have a problem with it anymore, but if I want the corp I run to be newbie-friendly (and I do), doctrines are a huge obstacle. I can't introduce new players to PvP if I have to make them train to fly an arty Abaddon (or whatever the current meta is) instead of a wide variety of small ships so they get a good sample of what they can do. How universal is the doctrine expectation?
As for the "asshat FC", I will probably be the asshat FC.
J'Poll wrote: What to expect you need to get "friendly" with current holders?
Either:
* A very good track record. * Very deep pockets (aka rent).
That figures. I might have a few strings I can pull. As a PvP-focused corp, we definitely would not be able to afford rent. That's fine, though, since we don't actually need the sovereignty ourselves, or exclusive access to a system. Just a station with a semblance of a market, and with fun to be had nearby.
Thanks for the insight! Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3207
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
L'ouris wrote:Never mind this bit, I thought you mentioned NPC null... Im tired NPC null is a possibility, but I know how to work it. I also know NPC null tends to be fairly hostile, especially with the cloning situation, as you mentioned. I used to base out of Curse for a little while, and I hated every bit of it, so I'm trying to avoid going through that again.
L'ouris wrote: ... Actual op answer ....
Doctrine fleet activity, isk for dues etc. Actually work for alliance leadership. Killboard activity ( green ) Depending on your alliance - some level of corp self sustainability.
The list is easy when your just joining an established group... It's the same as joining a corp as a newbie and asking what is expected :)
So... the expectation would be to be an already working corp with some history to prove it deserves to be let in, correct? As in, I can't have me and a couple of buddies in corp, working to build it, and build it right into the alliance immediately.
The sustainability and activity aren't issues, but the history... NPC null might have to be a thing, at least at the start. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4699
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:J'Poll wrote:\o/ Welcome back Petrus, wondered what happened to you. Acute Bittervet Syndrome. Even though I love Eve, its community, and its ideals, I was not able to find anything fun to do on a day to day basis, so I figured it was time for a break.
Am there too, usually only log in for a quick snooping around in chats and updating of skillqueue (for 1 more month...Thanks CCP for endless skillqueue).
I just keep subbed, do some "keeping the social aspect warm" stuff and for the rest try out other games (again).
Quote:That bit about doctrines is interesting. Even though I understand the point of doctrines, I never loved adhering to them and would prefer to run support roles: scouting, tackling, catching stragglers, or even hauling ammo to the fleet during an unexpectedly-long structure bash. I don't personally really have a problem with it anymore, but if I want the corp I run to be newbie-friendly (and I do), doctrines are a huge obstacle. I can't introduce new players to PvP if I have to make them train to fly an arty Abaddon (or whatever the current meta is) instead of a wide variety of small ships so they get a good sample of what they can do. How universal is the doctrine expectation?
That really depends on who you fly with.
And often, bringing some support ship (Ewar / Tackle frigates) is fine if you can't fly the actual doctrine ship yet...just don't be "That Drake Guy"...
But there are many different doctrines around and some are not that "Vet status needed", hell...look how BNI took space and with the avg. age of their members. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3207
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: And often, bringing some support ship (Ewar / Tackle frigates) is fine if you can't fly the actual doctrine ship yet...just don't be "That Drake Guy"...
I've been "That Drake Guy" in frigate fleets, even though I was able to fly the proper ship. It's fun.
J'Poll wrote:But there are many different doctrines around and some are not that "Vet status needed", hell...look how BNI took space and with the avg. age of their members. Seeing as how BNI only got into nullsec and continues to exist there for being a "game preserve", I don't think they really serve as a good example here. I've seen how their fleets operate firsthand. I was not very impressed.
I guess I have some wheeling and dealing ahead of me, eh? Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
206
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 21:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Little recent hands on experience, however:
I suspect the requirement to be a fully functional corp prior to joining an established alliance is not exactly a "firm rule"
You remember what it was like out there, some alliances recruit anyone they can. Others are real strict, most fall I between.
Isn't brave still a thing? I thought they still recruited nearly anything but my null Intel is likely way out of date. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4699
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 22:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
L'ouris wrote:You remember what it was like out there, some alliances recruit anyone they can. Others are real strict, most fall I between.
This kind of boils down into what you expect too:
The more nit picky you are, the harder it will be to get into that alliance.
The lower your expectations, the bigger the "target" alliances are you should look into. The higher your expectations, the smaller that list will be but also it will be harder to join them because they are likely also more strict who they let play with them. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
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Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3207
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 22:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
L'ouris wrote:Little recent hands on experience, however:
I suspect the requirement to be a fully functional corp prior to joining an established alliance is not exactly a "firm rule"
You remember what it was like out there, some alliances recruit anyone they can. Others are real strict, most fall I between.
Yep, I'll keep that in mind.
L'ouris wrote: Isn't brave still a thing? I thought they still recruited nearly anything but my null Intel is likely way out of date.
They are, but from what I've seen they have a culture of not caring about being competent or challenged as long as it's fun for them. More power to them for making it work, but that's not an atmosphere I admire. Still, thanks for the suggestion. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Mharius Skjem
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2014.10.13 22:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Heyo! Some of you might remember me spending a good bit of time around these parts, but I took a break starting a few months ago. Anyway, I've been monitoring Eve and the incoming changes are pretty great. So great, that I'm returning to try my hand at founding and running another swashbuckling PvP corp.
This leads to my question: what are the expectations of a small PvP-focused corp in an alliance in nullsec? Also, what are teh expectations for its members? I realize the answer changes from alliance to alliance, but it's subjective so I'm asking it anyway.
More details:
I would like to run a corp basing in nullsec and focusing on "roaming" PvP -- using small forces to secure nearby friendly space or attack hostile space (and its residents). I realize that "hey, we're a small gang roaming group, can we use your station for staging?" is unlikely to get a "yes" since the owners of the space gain nothing out of it. So... what would they want to gain out of it?
What are your thoughts on it? What expectations should I plan for?
Pay your rent and turn up on time for fleets. A recovering btter vet, -áwith a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve... |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
225
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 10:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote: They are, but from what I've seen they have a culture of not caring about being competent or challenged as long as it's fun for them. More power to them for making it work, but that's not an atmosphere I admire. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
Strange sentiment. You want your ally to be try hard competent PvP vets but at the same time you refuse to adjust to any fleet doctrines. Yeah that probably will work really well |
Gregor Parud
711
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 10:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote: They are, but from what I've seen they have a culture of not caring about being competent or challenged as long as it's fun for them. More power to them for making it work, but that's not an atmosphere I admire. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
Strange sentiment. You want your ally to be try hard competent PvP vets but at the same time you refuse to adjust to any fleet doctrines. Yeah that probably will work really well
No, what he means is that he's looking for quality over quantity. A trait most blobbing lol clown alliances, and their members, don't understand. |
Brink Albosa
Screaming Hayabusa Neo-Bushido Movement
42
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Welcome back! |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
225
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote: No, what he means is that he's looking for quality over quantity. A trait most blobbing lol clown alliances, and their members, don't understand.
Yeah because everyone bringing what he wants without any fleet doctrine really brings quality to the field |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4700
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 11:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: No, what he means is that he's looking for quality over quantity. A trait most blobbing lol clown alliances, and their members, don't understand.
Yeah because everyone bringing what he wants without any fleet doctrine really brings quality to the field
Nope.
But 95% of the people's PvP knowledge in fleets in null-sec now a days is:
Press F1 when FC tells me to press F2. Press F2 when FC tells me to press F2.
Like Petrus, it's why I left null-sec. I rather have quality over quantity.
Sure, doctrines are fine and needed. But I rather fight with a small group, based on quality of it's pilots and lose then just being a +1 in the blob-herd.
Anybody can win a fight if he can just throw more people into the grind then the opposite side, that's not fighting, that's boring. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
225
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yeah but even the small fleet needs some kind of doctrine if it wants to stand a chance against the other small fleet. |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
206
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Yeah but even the small fleet needs some kind of doctrine if it wants to stand a chance against the other small fleet.
I suspect that specific doctrines are only required after a certain size. One of the big benifits of doctrines is to make it easier to lead fleets of larger groups. A small group of pilots well aware of their and their fleetmates abilities should in theory be capable of dismantling a similiar sized group or at least compete.
My hunch. |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
225
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
L'ouris wrote: I suspect that specific doctrines are only required after a certain size. One of the big benifits of doctrines is to make it easier to lead fleets of larger groups. A small group of pilots well aware of their and their fleetmates abilities should in theory be capable of dismantling a similiar sized group or at least compete.
My hunch.
A doctrine is a codification of what ships to bring, what fits those ships should have and what they should do. So a group of people who didn't talk of the above things and just goes out on a whim usually won't have a chance against a similar sized and expierienced group that did talk about the above things prior and synchronized with each other. |
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L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
206
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
We can agree To disagree
Your missing the fact that doctrines simply shortcut the groups ability to understand and leverage the fleetmates capabilities.
They are adopted specifically to allow groups to become more effective quicker with less learning time and mastery. Very effective at that too I may add.
It's basically the warrior culture vs the trained soldier. Both effective until critical mass requires the mass output off the soldier doctrine. |
Gregor Parud
713
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:L'ouris wrote: I suspect that specific doctrines are only required after a certain size. One of the big benifits of doctrines is to make it easier to lead fleets of larger groups. A small group of pilots well aware of their and their fleetmates abilities should in theory be capable of dismantling a similiar sized group or at least compete.
My hunch.
A doctrine is a codification of what ships to bring, what fits those ships should have and what they should do. So a group of people who didn't talk of the above things and just goes out on a whim usually won't have a chance against a similar sized and expierienced group that did talk about the above things prior and synchronized with each other.
Doctrines is a "what to bring" list for people who have no clue on what they're doing, what the plan is or how they should be doing it. They're not part of the decision forming, planning or anything... they're just F1 cattle. As such it's a "bring 400 of those, 80 of these and 20 of such and such", which by definition means it's for mindless blobbing retards.
Knowledgeable pilots in smaller groups don't need doctrines, they have a plan they discussed and everyone bring the ship(s) needed. "Lets all bring kiting inties tonight" is not a doctrine. If you have trouble understanding this and the (not so) subtle differences then perhaps you should come to realise which group you're part of; the Cattle F1 pushers or the knowledgeable players. So... you know, stay out of stuff you have no clue on. |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3209
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: Sure, doctrines are fine and needed. But I rather fight with a small group, based on quality of it's pilots and lose then just being a +1 in the blob-herd.
Anybody can win a fight if he can just throw more people into the grind then the opposite side, that's not fighting, that's boring.
That's what I'm going for, thanks for putting it into words. I understand that in medium and large sized fights, especially those with real consequences beyond lost ships (sov, etc), you need everyone (competent and not) to adhere to a standard that makes organization possible. If you put together the best thinking small gang PvPers in a 200 man fleet, they would still likely get trounced by a properly organized doctrine fleet. I get that.
However, that's not something I like doing on a daily basis, from any side of the equation. I prefer to stick to numbers of 20 or fewer people, where the personal incentive of each member has the potential to matter more, with the FC providing general direction and instructions rather than calling every individual members' actions and expecting the members do nothing other than that. In other words, I don't play Eve for someone to micromanage my actions, and I don't FC in order to micromanage others' actions. I'd rather play Starcraft 2 for doing that.
Again, I understand the presence of doctrines and large fleets with "quantity over quality" when necessary. If immediately training to adhere to doctrine is an absolute requirement so you're able to defend your space, that's fine. I'll find a way to make that work. If immediately training to adhere to doctrine is an absolute requirement for day-to-day life though, and a 40-50 man fleet of people who don't know how to do anything other than Target->F1 is a "small gang", that's not OK and I'm looking elsewhere.
Everyone operates under their own assumptions and preferences. This is my preference and I'm trying to work within it. There's no need to turn this thread into a flamewar.
L'ouris wrote:We can agree To disagree Your missing the fact that doctrines simply shortcut the groups ability to understand and leverage the fleetmates capabilities. They are adopted specifically to allow groups to become more effective quicker with less learning time and mastery. Very effective at that too I may add. It's basically the warrior culture vs the trained soldier. Both effective until critical mass requires the mass output off the soldier doctrine.
+1 cookie for you. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3209
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Yeah but even the small fleet needs some kind of doctrine if it wants to stand a chance against the other small fleet. In my experience, yes and no. Also, depends on the definition of "small fleet".
~5 people? No doctrine can compensate for lack of skill. ~10 people? Sometimes uniform fittings can help, like with a Talwar gang. ~20 people? Not having a doctrine here risks the fleet turning into a haphazard mess. More? Goes beyond my definition of "small fleet", and a doctrine/plan is definitely helpful fighting an equal-sized group past this point. The more people there are, the less personal skill matters and indeed the more "independent" thinking actually hurts the fleet. That's why groups like BNI tend to have huge fleets, and that's why I tend to avoid being part of them or having anything to do with them. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
206
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
In regards to your timing Petrus;
I suspect that you have time to build a group before the null landscape really shakes up to make your end goal more viable.
The massive change to logistics and projection initially proposed would have forced chaos out there ( would have been sweet :( )
It sounds like that is still the end goal, but they have changed it to a managed process which also implies that the massive shakeup is now more of a simple change the groups will adapt to.
Based on what I've been reading you probably have about 12 months to get a good group up and running which would give you the established history mentioned earlier. |
Gregor Parud
713
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Smaller, intelligent, light travelling/moving groups will be more viable after the changes; Fast in, fast out. |
Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
56
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Heyo! Some of you might remember me spending a good bit of time around these parts, but I took a break starting a few months ago. Anyway, I've been monitoring Eve and the incoming changes are pretty great. So great, that I'm returning to try my hand at founding and running another swashbuckling PvP corp.
This leads to my question: what are the expectations of a small PvP-focused corp in an alliance in nullsec? Also, what are teh expectations for its members? I realize the answer changes from alliance to alliance, but it's subjective so I'm asking it anyway.
More details:
I would like to run a corp basing in nullsec and focusing on "roaming" PvP -- using small forces to secure nearby friendly space or attack hostile space (and its residents). I realize that "hey, we're a small gang roaming group, can we use your station for staging?" is unlikely to get a "yes" since the owners of the space gain nothing out of it. So... what would they want to gain out of it?
What are your thoughts on it? What expectations should I plan for?
How do *you* want to operate? Do you want the "turn up on time in doctrine fit and press F1 when told?"
Or do you want to fly how you want, when you want with a group of like-minded folks doing the same?
You don't have to go to sov null at all to experience nullsec PVP. "When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3209
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote: How do *you* want to operate? Do you want the "turn up on time in doctrine fit and press F1 when told?"
Or do you want to fly how you want, when you want with a group of like-minded folks doing the same?
You don't have to go to sov null at all to experience nullsec PVP.
The latter one. I realize that being in sov null has some prices, like being required to contribute to doctrine fleets, but for that price you do get a safer place to base out of, cavalry to call in case things get hot, and clear-cut allies and enemies to work with and roam against.
I'm trying to measure the effort needed to be part of sov null versus the benefits of doing so, with my particular objectives in mind. So far the thread has been great at that. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Petrus Blackshell
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3209
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
L'ouris wrote:In regards to your timing Petrus;
I suspect that you have time to build a group before the null landscape really shakes up to make your end goal more viable.
The massive change to logistics and projection initially proposed would have forced chaos out there ( would have been sweet :( )
It sounds like that is still the end goal, but they have changed it to a managed process which also implies that the massive shakeup is now more of a simple change the groups will adapt to.
Based on what I've been reading you probably have about 12 months to get a good group up and running which would give you the established history mentioned earlier. Yeah, I was initially hoping for mass chaos out in nullsec, which I could have abused to claim a system with a few corps I know. That doesn't appear to be the case, so I've changed my plans.
As it stands, it looks like it might be a good idea to start out simple, in NPC null, and build a solid group to join an alliance with. That way not only do we get to have our own "thing" going, but if we're good enough we may even be able to dictate some of our terms for joining the alliance -- like negotiating a compromise on doctrines if that's a problem. Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
303
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
rent money is probably the bigger expectation If you don't keep up to date on the upcoming changes, you may as well be living under a Rokh. I would even Venture to say that was a good pun on my part. Stay beautiful o7. |
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