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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
111
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Posted - 2014.10.14 02:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's been a topic of discussion across this forum, quality podcasts and OOG haunts of Eve players for a long time.
We all know here is where you want to be for quality pew, high value ganks and the best environment to really exercise those predator instincts so why are so few groups moving in and developing?
Appreciate this is also a question that's been asked before and perhaps those newer groups are keeping their heads down for fear of eviction/lack of interest in out of game media or whathaveyou, but the 'incursions are better ISK/hr' argument rings hollow and blaming Fozzie for the WH changes is demonstrably baseless - despite frigholes being a little pointless (unless the sleeper loot lore shenanigans result in T3 frigs, in which case GG CCP).
Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. More propaganda, more presence in reddit, Eve-O forums and wherever the hell else telling people how spiffy things are here so the next time our crew fights someone it's a fresh group. The next time we open a hole the dead POSes we logged 3 months ago have been superseded by new ones. The next time we look to recruit they're not all coming from dead nullbear organisations or failing w-space blob alliances.
Scanning chains is easier than ever before. Acess to every corner of New Eden is still available daily. GFs still occur more often than is ever reported. The ISK isn't as great as it used to be but it's still better than scrubbing around in low for DEDs or running missions. Maybe if we open our arms we can catalyse the change we all want to see in the space we live and love. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3845
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
I blame myself. I'm just too scary :( Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
519
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:We all know here is where you want to be for quality pew, high value ganks and the best environment to really exercise those predator instincts so why are so few groups moving in and developing?
Fear. Fear of losing everything. Blue-Fire Best Fire |
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
516
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. Most of what you said, I like. Just not the above quoted.
Snipped signature for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
298
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
People have this opinion of wormholes being this place with an incredibly high bar of entry in a game which already has a huge bar of entry learning curvewise.
That sort of filters out a lot of people who might otherwise come here.
Tl;dr Scanning is hard? You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
298
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hidden Fremen wrote:Ilaister wrote:Personally, I'd like to see more chestbeating from w-space groups. Most of what you said, I like. Just not the above quoted.
I think he means more grandstanding with goal of getting the good word of bobs holy land out there and less the other kind. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
715
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Posted - 2014.10.14 03:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight.
Even finding fights in general is easier in LS.
When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
25
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Posted - 2014.10.14 05:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Tl;dr Scanning is hard?
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
220
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Posted - 2014.10.14 05:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Andrew Jester wrote:scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight.
Even finding fights in general is easier in LS.
When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows.
Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Angsty Teenager
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
599
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Posted - 2014.10.14 05:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Andrew Jester wrote:scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight.
Even finding fights in general is easier in LS.
When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games. |
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
221
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Posted - 2014.10.14 07:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:calaretu wrote:Andrew Jester wrote:scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight.
Even finding fights in general is easier in LS.
When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games.
Your assumptions did actually make me laugh. Thank you for that
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
393
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Posted - 2014.10.14 07:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
because Wh suppose to be a place to live in , but just pass through , settle your campement , farm , make money , an go another place.
But some players thought : hell no let's stay in this WHsystem.
This is why so few live in WH ... and also because living in WH means risk of loosing EVRYTHING if your main POS get blapped CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
161
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Posted - 2014.10.14 07:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well the most common reasons are the fact that there's not nearly as much PVP for the PVP pilots as elsewhere, and when there is, it's mostly numbers-based ganking with little skill or tactics involved, and there's too much risk for PVE pilots. And everything involves more effort than elsewhere. Scanning with a mapper is a massive time-sink.
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Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
104
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Posted - 2014.10.14 09:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
From a PvE perspective, unless you are in a c5/6 running cap escalations the risk vs reward is too low. You can basically make the same isk/hr in incursions in damn near 100% safety. Incursions also run nearly 24/7. With a bit of luck you can make significantly more Isk/hr in the safety of an upgraded sov NS. With WH's you need an active corp membership to be able to run sites effectively.
From a PvP perspective you rarely get good fights in actual WH space. You fly around in cloaky gangs and hope you run across someone trying to clear sites. That or you sit on your hole and wait for another gang to come through.
And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department. |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
38
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Posted - 2014.10.14 10:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote: And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department.
I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months.
It happens ...
From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard.
Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge need for the player (lots of things to know)
Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP. Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is.
If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially). It is the only way. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
490
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Posted - 2014.10.14 11:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:
From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard.
No its not. We worked hard to grow from a 6 man corp to a 20+ one. More work + more exposure = growth
Papa Django wrote: Reasons are well known : 1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class 2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp 3- Nothing can be done solo 4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory) 5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know)
1. Agreed 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception. 3. Also a lie. Check J110706. 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard. 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics
Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
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Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
715
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Posted - 2014.10.14 12:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote:calaretu wrote:Andrew Jester wrote:scanning/rolling for possibility of a fight when the majority of time people POS up is great if you either have enough people or have no life. It's way easier to wait for a ping, log in, get on titan, and go straight to fight.
Even finding fights in general is easier in LS.
When you don't want to make a massive time commitment, WH space blows. Some of us actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Not everybody is a neckbeard loser in his basement who has all day to play video games. Your assumptions did actually make me laugh. Thank you for that
With thrill of the hunt comes despair of the hunt when you don't find anything, and my experience was despair too often outweighed thrill. Not what I'm trying to do in a video game... If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
38
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Posted - 2014.10.14 12:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote: 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception.
It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation.
Bronya Boga wrote: 3. Also a lie. Check J110706.
What can i check instead of the kb with your system name ?
Bronya Boga wrote: 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard.
They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard.
Bronya Boga wrote: 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics
I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1909
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because:
* there are a lack of conflict drivers to encourage PVP in wormhole space.
* no substantial content has been added in years, so their is nothing new to entertain vets or promote wormholes to newer players.
* in most cases, the rewards do not justify the risk. Equivalent isk can be earned in in k-space without as much risk or investment.
* wormholes aren't "special" anymore and practically everything there was to discover has been discovered and documented.
* CCP is focused on k-space not w-space. +1 |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
713
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Posted - 2014.10.14 12:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:Bronya Boga wrote: 4. T3 arent mendatory. Thats an old standard.
They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard. Bronya Boga wrote: 5. A week tops is what needed to know the basics
I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months.
Oh, please. It takes a bunch of days until people learn how to scan a wormhole and 20secs on eve-survival to check how-to ISK. Then you tell people to use dscan and you're ready. Maybe add a boot camp on wormholian behaviour and explain choke points. Yeah, elite wormholian successfully educated. Literally the only difference between w-space and k-space is having to scan the outgate and that local thingy.
I didn't see any news in your ranks in the last encounter, all basis/ishtars/tengus/HICs. And given your enthusiasm to fight I'd rather blame that instead of a rumored T3-meta.
Ed: Might be that I ran into one of your alliance-bros, so excuse that little detail please. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
32
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Posted - 2014.10.14 12:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because:
* CCP is focused on k-space not w-space.
This... |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
771
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 12:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Wormhole space isn't that active at the moment because:
* CCP is focused on k-space not w-space. This...
Also there are people moving into W-space, but most are not capable of launching the fleet to deal with anybody c4 and up.
They aren't large groups, and they generally don't grandstand. There are some farmers, some 2 to 3 solo groups, etc.
Thinking straight off the top of my head though, the main "issue" people don't see others is probably because its easy to "blueball" in wormhole space. Just wait a day, hole collapses, and unless they plan on evicting you, you are fine.
This is a issue with POS's itself though (aka to get people to fight, you have to threaten to evict them, then follow through with it, but killing pos's suck in c4 and below).
To be blunt though, lack of conflict drivers. The only current one is having "a grudge". Wspace needs to be worth a little more or there needs to be a reason to fight over something. Yaay!!!! |
Aladar Dangerface
Transcendent Sedition Protean Concept
12
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Posted - 2014.10.14 13:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:[quote=Bronya Boga] 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception.
It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation.
[quote=Bronya Boga]
It is not that time consuming compared to pre-Hyperion. Make a spot 200 off the other side of the hole, jump cap, web it to 200 and web it back. The risk is not substantially greater than before if u are on the ball and it adds another couple of minutes on to the time it used to take. I think it's more the mentality that since it's not 100% safe it shouldn't be done. And if that's ur thinking then u don't belong in wh space anyway.
Post looks a little ****** but I'm on my phone so suck it. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
490
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 13:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Papa Django wrote: It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation.
30 seconds is too long for you?
Papa Django wrote:
What can i check instead of the kb with your system name ?
Not my system but a solo astero stayed there for a few days solo got a bunch of kills. Or maybe you never seen Baby Dadys work. Go to the youtube channel Deciple of Bob. You will see A lot of solo in whs.
Papa Django wrote: They are. We try to play with low skilled pilots in BC and it is a pain. We do it anyway because we want to bring more people in wspace, especially new players, but it is hard.
Its easy I dont understand why its hard for you.
Papa Django wrote:
I don't know what you put under the basics but to train an autonomous wormhole player it takes months.
Explain polarity = 10 minutes Explain mass and time = 20 minutes Explain proper scouting = 30 minutes. BOOM. done. jesus christ well you look at that 60 minutes to teach the basics. Take the rest of the 167 hours and get a bit better about it. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
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Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
490
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Posted - 2014.10.14 13:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote:Papa Django wrote:[quote=Bronya Boga] 2. No it didn't. Its an illusion. Stop regurgitating this misconception.
It is a disaster. We have lost the ability to roll quickly connexions. It is too time consuming now. Controlling the environement is a core basic in wormhole exploitation. [quote=Bronya Boga] It is not that time consuming compared to pre-Hyperion. Make a spot 200 off the other side of the hole, jump cap, web it to 200 and web it back. The risk is not substantially greater than before if u are on the ball and it adds another couple of minutes on to the time it used to take. I think it's more the mentality that since it's not 100% safe it shouldn't be done. And if that's ur thinking then u don't belong in wh space anyway. Post looks a little ****** but I'm on my phone so suck it.
Its faster to just slowboat the dred.
Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
666
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Posted - 2014.10.14 13:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nowhere else in EVE it's as easy to go solo as in wspace. You don't even need good player skills, just knowledge. I've been doing it for a long while. Only downside is that there are so few others in wspace, but that is actually less of an issue when being solo, because basically everything you do find is some sort of challenge. A lone Drake or Tengu ratting is poor content for a 15-man gang, but for a solo player it's an interesting find.
Without a good reason nobody will siege a tower of a one-man corp, if only because they rightly assume that there is not much stuff in it. And even if someone would do it, it's easy to pack everything into one Orca and log it off for a while until the invaders get bored and leave.
For pvp, it is a considerable advantage that no other people alarm potential targets by moving carelessly through the chain, **** up bookmarks or otherwise disrupt things with their incompetence. . |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
159
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Posted - 2014.10.14 14:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are so many variables at play, many of them with competing/cross purposes making w-space frustrating for those that are not already over inclined to live there. Much of this list is from the perspective of a group that has been in w-space a short time relative to many, is on the smaller side, more PvE than PvP focused and perhaps indicative of many corps coming from k-space to w-space other than pure PvP organizations.
- You have a highly non-casual playstyle in w-space (many activities take more time to set up or execute compared to k-space). This can limit character participation due to lack of "fun" when the setup takes up considerable portions of playtime.
- The risk level is much higher than any other space when you do go out to engage in content which is required in w-space as nothing is handed to you to do.
- PvE groups suffer from the EVE rewards system where group play is disincentivized through split rewards when solo/small group would suffice. This discourages increasing group participation. Group play, however, is necessitated by the increased risk level in order to operate efficiently or securely.
- POS mechanics foster distrust and awox/thievery making recruitment harder than it needs to be further limiting corporation growth potential. Corporation numbers are needed in order to provide adequate concentration of pilots online at a given time for either participation or protection.
- PvP groups in wormhole space are very efficient compared to corps either starting up, PvE focused, or with casual player membership allowing for a smaller number of dedicated PvP pilots to cripple a seemingly larger corporation that has a less organized/spread membership. Encountering PvP organization in multiple timezones can exacerbate this effect making it seem futile to operate in w-space.
- The PvP "meta" is T3 which has a significant price tag in both ISK and skillpoints for members who see T3 fleets as a dead stop to their activities.
I'm sure there are more but that's just been our experience. We're still here, however, and loving w-space despite all this. Addressing POSes will go a long way to improving the recruitment capabilities of fledgling w-space corps. Addressing PvE rewards will improve the state of affairs for w-space residents. Both will draw more people including PvP players. I personally would love to see unique PvE content like k-space -> w-space escalations or anything like the null-sec anomalies in w-space that will draw in more day tripping pilots. So many w-space corps report that they often have been able to recruit with their guns that each person that enters w-space for rewards and becomes a target is future potential w-space corp member. Even seemingly simple changes to T3 production materials could mean a major improvement in w-space use if those changes ripple out to industrialists and pilots using those products |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
510
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
This biggest problem always was and still is how ******* difficult is to have stuff and bring new people to the damned space, ie. POS security, corp roles, etc. Fix that and we are all set for population boom. All this stuff about rolling, conflict drivers, evictions and whatever is secondary to that. I'm still waiting for the personal ship hangar we've been promised to have right after Odyssey. W-Space Realtor |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
38
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote: 30 seconds is too long for you?
30sec to roll a hole ? Come on plz ... You are just trolling.
Bronya Boga wrote: Not my system but a solo astero stayed there for a few days solo got a bunch of kills. Or maybe you never seen Baby Dadys work. Go to the youtube channel Deciple of Bob. You will see A lot of solo in whs.
Ok you have a solo astero player able to gank solo. Congratulations .
Bronya Boga wrote: Its easy I dont understand why its hard for you.
BC cant tank sleepers BS for example. The last waves in C3 data/relic are dangerous without a properly remote setup. BC are ok for combat ano in C1 to C3. But they need very good intel because they are too slow to w/o. DS usage is not a safe method to protect against gank. You need a scout on each connexion in the system. And new players have not usually others account to do that. So they need support from vet guys.
It's not an easy thing.
Bronya Boga wrote: Explain polarity = 10 minutes Explain mass and time = 20 minutes Explain proper scouting = 30 minutes. BOOM. done. jesus christ well you look at that 60 minutes to teach the basics. Take the rest of the 167 hours and get a bit better about it.
First, most people don't handle a new concept the first time, they need one, two or three time the same information again.
Second you forgot a lot of things : - what is a static, how to find the core data of each connexion type (mass & duration) - how to set up wh dedicated overviews - how to deal with POS - how to set up a fit for wh farm, fit for wh pvp, fit for wh logi, - how to fastly scan down a system - how to use third party tool to share the intel data - how to use bookmarks - how to scout safely a POS - how to find a guy in wspace only with dscan - how to takes advantage of sensor overlay in a pvp context - what kind of data we need when encountering other player in wh (corp info, kb, is in a wh group so need to know the main wh entities) - the differences between wspace and kspace pvp - how to pve relatively safely regarding to your ship type - how to roll a hole - etc ... i forgot surely things here
There is plenty of things needed to be repeated many times because it is not possible for a person to learn all theses things instantly. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
667
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 14:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Obil Que wrote: I personally would love to see unique PvE content like k-space -> w-space escalations Great idea. Occasionally, mission-runners in low-sec or even hisec would be offered special missions for which a wormhole in a nearby system is spawned that they have to scan down. In the wspace system they'll find a mission site that is of similar difficulty as their usual missions (=easy) but pays as much as a w-space site would, or more. Level 1 agents could offer missions into c1, level 2 to c2 etc. No such missions in c5/6.
To not generate too many additional wormholes, these special holes would only appear if a pilot actually accepts the mission; I expect most of these missions would be turned down like the new burner missions. . |
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