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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
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Posted - 2014.10.15 10:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi!
I would like to know more about the current situation in regards to corps dedicated to picking on renters.
Dear ISD, please know that if you move my thread to COAD, I will not be able to post anymore ... so that wouldn't really help.
I am interested in knowing the actual impact of people shooting the carebears in nullsec and if it actually matters ...
... or if there are so many people who want to PvE in null, that when one leaves the next one jumps in immediately anyway.
From my current perspective, I do not believe that there is any actual impact and that there is no Change brought through this ... it's basically turkey shooting in my eyes.
I wish my perspective to be widened and lack of information to be corrected.
*kinks* (:
Thanks! :) I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
111
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot....
Dunno too much about it myself cos we are bad at catching them before they dock/POS up but I think the numbers are negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no? |
Sox Box
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Renters should be reconditioned. Shown the error of their ways.
They feed the tumorous growths in Nullsec that are too lazy to earn ISK the way the rest of us do - nothing but ISK farms taking up space that, for the sake of "content generation", would be better served in the hands of smaller entities independently where they could establish themselves and build a presence big enough to create "good fights". This would of course mean that the tumorous growths would have to hold off on swallowing the smaller entities whole with their invasive mass which has been left to fester for years.
Not that I expect an honest, legitimate response from any relevant party regarding this matter, but it would be interesting to know just how much of a crutch renters are for the big groups that resort to such income gathering.
I'm also interested to know if there are actually groups out there dedicated enough to bother traversing the mass of bubbles that can be found on the majority of rented system gates just to shoot fear soaked renters. That **** is like frog-spawn. It's ridiculous and unnecessary. |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1589
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot....
Dunno too much about it myself cos we are bad at catching them before they dock/POS up but I think the numbers are negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Phoebe will make rental empires defunct though no? no no, rental empires can still exist, but it'll be like renting an apartment in downtown LA while your Landlord lives in Miami, your probably going to get beat to crap, theirs no local authority to protect you, and the person your supposed to file complaints to cant hear you over the sound of their clanging mojito glasses |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
226
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Most ratters don't bother fighting back and dock up or leave the system instead so if you do it on a grand scale it does indeed have an impact. If you perma camp all the good ratting systems in a region and have the ability to drop on targets that rat anyways you can be a huge pain in the ass. The problem is that you need enough people willing to have an cloaky alt sitting in system most of the time or to go out and activly hunt. Another big problem is the remoteness of some regions where you on the one hand have to fly your alt trough god knows how many gates to get there and on the other hand have to take multiple mids to bridge there to drop on someone. You can see this very nice when you compare the NPC kills for the last 24h in for example delve where you have NPC space, close proximity to low sec and AFAIK pizza operating there and cobalt edge where you have no NPC space and no proximity to low sec.
Another great example is if you compare the amount of renters in PBLRD: 3500 NA: 14000 BOT: 11000
The eastern regions are far more remote and thus more appealing to renters.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1589
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sox Box wrote:Renters should be reconditioned. Shown the error of their ways.
They feed the tumorous growths in Nullsec that are too lazy to earn ISK the way the rest of us do - nothing but ISK farms taking up space that, for the sake of "content generation", would be better served in the hands of smaller entities independently where they could establish themselves and build a presence big enough to create "good fights". This would of course mean that the tumorous growths would have to hold off on swallowing the smaller entities whole with their invasive mass which has been left to fester for years.
Not that I expect an honest, legitimate response from any relevant party regarding this matter, but it would be interesting to know just how much of a crutch renters are for the big groups that resort to such income gathering.
I'm also interested to know if there are actually groups out there dedicated enough to bother traversing the mass of bubbles that can be found on the majority of rented system gates just to shoot fear soaked renters. That **** is like frog-spawn. It's ridiculous and unnecessary. Nullsec leaderships have already given their response, pretty much any N3/CFC just copy/pastes the same arguement that "renters are iportant because it gives the little guy a way into null, which is a good thing", beause apparently disbanding your corp to join a mass of statistics onsidered an expendable meatshield by their landlord's, and who are forbidden from taking independent action, is "getting little guys into null" |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Please be aware of people who just post hate ... ... they will just drag you into senseless arguments.
Reading the rest now. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 11:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thank you, Ilaister and Ka' for your responses so far. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Lucrii Dei
Vector Galactic The Big Dirty
69
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Posted - 2014.10.15 11:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
I would assume that the groups that have the ability to rent space out have enough ISK piled up collectively to last a very long time even if all the renters stopped paying and moved out. GöÇGòó The Explorer I GöÇGòó The Explorer II (Coming Soon!)
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
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Posted - 2014.10.15 12:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lucrii Dei wrote:I would assume that the groups that have the ability to rent space out have enough ISK piled up collectively to last a very long time even if all the renters stopped paying and moved out. I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here.
Hearsay and biased opinions on the matter aren't helpfull. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
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Lucrii Dei
Vector Galactic The Big Dirty
69
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Posted - 2014.10.15 12:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Lucrii Dei wrote:I would assume that the groups that have the ability to rent space out have enough ISK piled up collectively to last a very long time even if all the renters stopped paying and moved out. I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here. Hearsay and biased opinions on the matter aren't helpfull.
Planning to build a renter shooting empire? GöÇGòó The Explorer I GöÇGòó The Explorer II (Coming Soon!)
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Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
228
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Posted - 2014.10.15 12:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:I do remember people explaining why renting became a thing and I hope that those people in the know will share their knowledge in here.
Technetium nerfs. Goons and PL where the major tech holders in new Eden and after it got nerfed both needed a new (old) way to earn a shitton of isk every month with the least effort possible. Luckily there seems to be a neverending flow of carebears that find high sec to risky to perma rat all day and are willing to pay a rent for their space every month so the large renter empires where born. |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 12:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks Ka' ... that makes sense ... but I don't see how this is worth it? I mean... what do systems cost anyway to make it worth renting them away?
And isn't it kind of weird that instead of people from null farming systems ... ... they are being rented away to others?
Can you tell me how that makes sense? It seems contradictionary, so I guess I am missing relevant information.
I mean... people could just farm sktes themselves and give a part to their alliances. Its something to do in null too, no?
(yes, I invented the word contradictionary and I LOVE it :p) I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
579
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Posted - 2014.10.15 12:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Thanks Ka' ... that makes sense ... but I don't see how this is worth it? I mean... what do systems cost anyway to make it worth renting them away?
And isn't it kind of weird that instead of people from null farming systems ... ... they are being rented away to others?
Can you tell me how that makes sense? It seems contradictionary, so I guess I am missing relevant information.
I mean... people could just farm sktes themselves and give a part to their alliances. Its something to do in null too, no?
(yes, I invented the word contradictionary and I LOVE it :p)
There was a renter guy who used to post here regularly that occasionally put data up, and showed that exclusively renting a system for himself (incidentally, from us, but it applies whoever you rent from) was worth the money because they weren't competing with other players for anomoly and signature spawns. When you come in to alliance space, you are usually competing with a considerable number of other players, and the truly dedicated npc-killers know the "best" systems, are often running specialised fits, multi-boxing, and have shaved the practice to an art-form, so if you aren't a dedicated sig-runner (like I'm not, shooting red crosses makes me consider ending it all), you are left with the chaff anomolies or forced to go to the back-end of nowhere, which is particularly unhelpful if your pvp character is also your ratter as you don't want to be six jumpbridges away when a ping goes out (especially with the coming patch).
In the end, it looks like an effort/reward equation - if you are just in Null for the rats (and not the PVP), renting means you always have your spot waiting for you, rather than have to muscle your way through the crowds. Personally I'd never do it, but I can see why some people would. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
319
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Posted - 2014.10.15 12:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
I believe renting goes back further than that... Didn't BoB rent out some of their space? Not in the sense that they got ISS to put up stations for them but in the more modern manner.
The arguement that renting "gets the little guys out to null" brings me to recall people like Mom and Pop Ammo Shoppe - They were a small corp, I guess 20 members (it was a long time ago) and they lived out of a single POS in a single system... When IAC took over the pocket (and later the constellation) they remained in place and remained neutral, I don't believe they paid us anything (except refining taxes when we built The Distillery)... Getting "the little guys" out to null seems rather an altruistic sentiment - though the method may have a great deal more to do with enlightened self-interest... |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 12:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thank you, Aralyn, for your insightfull post! I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
228
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
What Aralyn said. Also if you join a Null sec ally instead of renting from it you normaly have to integrate somewho into it to not be kicked again. You maybe have to join Fleets, have to talk to people or post on their forums and so on. All the turbo jews are not interested in something like this. They just want to rat all day and watch the number on their wallet go up.
Jacob Holland wrote:I believe renting goes back further than that... Didn't BoB rent out some of their space? Yes, renting is nothing new but its the first time that its in such a grand scale where at least half of the player owned sov is rented out.
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 13:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Thanks again, Ka' !
Would you say that renters are a necessity nowadays? I still seem to miss a detail here, or I am blind in regards to it.
Of every big sov holding alliance there must be people who like to rat. These people could be set up to farm anoms and deliver parts of the income to the alliances ... which would be bigger income than from actual renters, no?
Am I missing something here? I would totally make a call through all members to find such people.
I honestly read through all posts, but this detail is beyond me. There would be no competing, but simply having dedicated people farm sites for alliance income ... ... which would surpass renting income ... no?
Sorry if this seems redundant, I might be missing something here. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
10075
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
You get less tears from renters than you do from killing carebears in highec, but the upside is that the renters are typically a captive audience. They basically can't leave the area they "own", because they have handcuffed themselves.
Plus, they sometimes pay you to leave if you make yourself enough of a nuisance. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4876
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:A lot of WH groups make it their business to prey on renters almost exclusively. They kill a lot of ratting carriers. Like, a lot.... That also explains the response to this. *snicker* Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
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Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
230
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote: Of every big sov holding alliance there must be people who like to rat. These people could be set up to farm anoms and deliver parts of the income to the alliances ... which would be bigger income than from actual renters, no?
Yes they allready do through taxes, at least in most alliances. I don't now if GSF or PL have general taxes set up. But the thing is alliance members don't like high taxes because if they go through the hassle of ratting they want to keep the most part of the isk for themself otherwise no one would rat.
Renters on the other hand are only allowed in thier rented space because they pay isk for it and they don't seem to mind paying a lot of isk because their only purpose in the game seems to be earning isk anyways. So you can milk out your renters but you usually can't milk out your alliance members.
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 13:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Okay ... renters don't mind it ... alliance members do.
Seems weird. One would assume that in alliances containing thousands of people it would be trivial to find people who wouldn't mind ...
... it's seriously confusing me, but I guess I have to accept this weirdness.
Thanks! I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Ra' zutao
The Ascended Fleet Northern Associates.
23
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Posted - 2014.10.15 14:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
eh some enjoy fighting back, I'm not scared of losing a ship, but i'm also not going to fight 30 people that hot drop me.. imma freak out poop myself and run the F away. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
45
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Posted - 2014.10.15 14:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
back around 2012...i had a main that was part of a renter alliance....we rented at roughly 4 billion isk per system and we had two systems. so 8 bill per month. Though we in the great scheme of things paid our lip service to the Landlord....most of leadership snickered a bit at them.
The reason was on the average our 200 member group at the time collectively made 200 billion isk oer month....with just two systems. We were decently self sufficient when it came to industry. Our only short coming was the super small pvp division that we had at the time supplemented on occassion by our ratting corps. Alliance Coffers obtained taxing our own corps to be out there about 25% of that collective income per month.
So recalling this experience.....I would say 'no' renters are not required in nullsec. And I also call BS on those nullbears that say it isnt possible to fully utilize their space for the projects they are doing. Motivation and a will to actually own something and maintain it is the key....not easy laziness. Things get easy after the work and infrastructure are in place. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
329
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Posted - 2014.10.15 14:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Wait till after the patch. Invasion imminent.
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Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
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Posted - 2014.10.15 14:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thank you for sharing your history and opinion, Max. I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Winter Archipelago
Fade.
274
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Posted - 2014.10.15 14:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
I use a bomber alt to do my nulsec hunting, so my response comes from the viewpoint of an individual pilot whose primary targets are miners, BC's, and BS's that are tanked against local damage types.
On the individual level, as I see it, it's largely meaningless. A single pilot cannot have enough of an impact on any one group to severely affect them (with a few exceptions, of which Cloaking in their system for a length of time is, though a decent person will barely even be affected by that if they know what they're doing). At the same time, an individual in a renter corp doesn't have enough matter in the grand scheme of things for their losses to matter.
However, even a small group can create a meaningful impact in a localized area, while larger groups can affect a region (look at PASTA as an example). There aren't enough large hunters to make much of an impact beyond that, though.
In the grand scheme of things, the ISK in nulsec is just too good, and there are too many renters and potential renters with too few predators to make a meaningful impact on a larger scale.
Generic Renter Corp may have five people lose a combined 15b in carriers this week to a roaming gang, but the month before, those same five people made a combined 25b ISK from it while their space was barely even noticed, will still be up 10b ISK this month, and when the roamers move on to their next target, those five people will make another 25b the next month, while the corp as a whole pulled in 100b+ for the month after loses and expenses.
Even when a system is being camped, passive forms of income such as station trading in the regional hub (if one exists) and PI can still produce a bit of profit (nothing quite like what they would be making while ratting, but they've hardly been reduced to having zero income), and if the players were wise, they would have jumpclones set up in Empire space to have something to do during a concentrated camping effort, essentially negating the efforts of the campers, to begin with.
So individually, no, there's no impact being made. Small groups can have a fairly decent impact in a localized area, but on the whole, they aren't able to really have a decisive presence to cause a lot of issues for the locals. There just aren't enough hunters to make a meaningful impact on a wide scale (even PASTA, with ~400 members, are largely only able to affect a small area, in the grand scheme of nulsec space). Ransoms are accepted in Isk, Ships, Mods, and Dolls. |
Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10965
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 15:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thank you for your very interesting post, Winter!
Can you, or someone else, tell me more about Pasta, what they do and their impact? I am Sol. I cook my bacon naked. New capsuleer in need of money? You hope there is more you can do than mining or being a slave to an agent? THERE IS! Send me a mail! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2712
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Posted - 2014.10.15 15:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
PvP is killing nullsec :D
amidoingitrite? Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
230
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Posted - 2014.10.15 15:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote: Can you, or someone else, tell me more about Pasta, what they do and their impact?
Awoxing guarantees citizenship
Please don't tell me you don't know wheniaminspace
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