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Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I started a discussion about salvaging and I got some positive feed back. Here is my Idea.
Salvaging should be a career path. A complete rework of salvaging might be needed. Please give my post a chance, and I'll do my best to deliver my idea in an intelligent and engaging manner.
First off, everyone mines. Its the most simplistic isk making career path for beginners. Salvaging should be similar. Something should be done to prevent a massive flooding of rigs, destroying rig prices and/or hurting the rig market in various ways. The solution is scrap. Scrap should be the most common commodity salvaged with the purpose of refining it. There can be many levels of scrap that yield different mineral rewards. This is a different form of mining, and more minerals on the market is no different than having more miners.
Salvaging sites, equipment, skills and cargo scanners.
Lets start with the salvaging sites. A miner points a miner at a rock. Why not have a salvager point a salvager at a wreck? Give it a yield like an asteroid and let the salvagers mine wrecks. Data sites have minable rocks with huge wreckage graphics that can't be mined, or sites have destructible structures that look nice when you frag them. Why not be able to salvage on them a little?
Equipment: There should be different types of salvagers. An aggressive salvager and an efficient salvager. Think of mining again... I can use a sledge hammer to work my way through a large amount of rock taking only the best, missing a lot of the small stuff or damaging some of the possible good stuff. Or I could use an efficient tool like a small hammer and rock chisel. That way I don't miss much and what I do find is undamaged instead of scrap.
Skills should reflect this... With experience I can be more aggressive with an efficient salvager or more efficient with an aggressive salvager. A skill that reflects a persons knowledge of wreckage/salvageable sites allows a person to know what to look for and where its located.. I.e.. a Bonus on salvage. With the proper appraisal/assay skills you yield better salvage (hey is that a diamond or a piece of worthless crystal?)
Maybe the aggressive salvager should break off chunks of larger wrecks like stations. These smaller chunks should waste a lot of the over all yield of the original, but have a chance to either improve or degrade the value of the original. This could cause players to aggressive salvage wrecks contested by others. Try to grab what you can before that jerk takes it all! Or groups finding little treasure troves in far corners of eve working together to maximize salvage!~
Types of salvageable structures: The wreckages should be scan-able with lets say a cargo scanner. The results could be Lucrative, profitable , looted, decayed untouched... etc.
The sites could implement combat.. Drone warrens, infested, Contested, claimed, or maybe quarantined ( thus patrolled? )
Or just floating wrecks....a forgotten battle field, Tragic accident, horrific crash site etc.. unchartered stationed, or just simply part of another site like the asteroids that decorate many sites now.
The sites could have chance finds and bonuses, as you salvage and the yield goes down you could uncover a hidden data or relic site as part of the structure. Or salvage with expectations to find them in sites like Ancient wreck, untouched wreckage Quarantined abandoned research facility etc.
Mix and match the prefix and suffix ! its an infested, untouched forgotten battlefield. Its a looted decayed drone warren. Its a lucrative untouched abandoned research facility etc..
wreckages and probe scanning. I can find a ship, but not a wreck? that's not fair, yes it may make scanning more cluttered, but then a checkable box ( hide wreckage) is a simple fix.
Wreck decay timers. If you don't want it, and are too inconsiderate or lazy to blue it up for others then why should it go to waste? Let it go blue after a set period of time. The value of the decayed wreck yields more scrap type yields (preserving rig markets) and most if not all mod/cargo vanish. Decaying cargo is non-game breaking, non-market impacting, and since the loot is abandoned its a non-issue. Wrecks can retain a small chance for new players to grab decent gear while ( Quazi-mining scrap ) with a chance of armor plates and burnt conduits.
Ok, so I've gone on long enough. Do you see the possibilities for this being its own career path? A fun way to mine while gaining other resources for rig production. Please give this idea consideration and take note I suggested ways it could lessen the impact on the rig market while offering a quazi-mining experience that can be fun, profitable the best part ( not mining ) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
138
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
as to the part about more scrap for minerals CCP has stated they want most of the minerals in this game coming from miners not loot/salvage |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
I for got about new ship and mod types.
Slagger, crow, raven, reaper, ships with salvaging bonuses, or ships with industrial scrap compressors, refiners built in.
Mid slot Salvager control mods, to boost efficiency or yield maximizers to improve salvager aggressiveness. Low slot mods for reprocessing scrap in space to save on cargo space. Scrap Compressors to make scrap smaller ie hold more scrap. Rig slots for salvager drone improvements and upgrades!!! There is just so much possibility for this to be its own class! |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:as to the part about more scrap for minerals CCP has stated they want most of the minerals in this game coming from miners not loot/salvage
But its just a different type of mining if it yields the same types minerals. It neither adds nor detracts form the total mined. It simply just called salvaged scrap and reprocessed minerals. Instead of ore and reprocessed ore. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5781
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skorn Blacksword wrote: First off, everyone mines.
you sure. =]I[= |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2331
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Skorn Blacksword wrote: First off, everyone mines.
Never mined a roid in my life. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
313
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
First, we have salvaging sites: do some scanning and look for the ones labeled "relic sites." Or, go to a mission hub and probe out some missioners.
Second, to be a worthy profession, you need some way to increase the value of salvage, which has already been decimated by the introduction of MTUs, salvage drones, and the Noctis. Injecting even more salvage into the system is going to make the profession less viable, not more. |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.15 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
I don't mean to be rude... but the first 2 people only read the first 3 words of my post and thought they were intellectual enough to offer their non beneficial observations that I used a generalization and the 3rd person didn't read the post either. I expected too much. I reposted my suggestion from a far less descriptive post that has a lot of people posting with pro/con to the idea. I was a much shorter post, perhaps I should stick to short posts in the future. |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Some players afk mine. They mine when there not playing. Salvaging should have good yield faster, but since the sites deplete faster. Have a chance for special thinks like uncovering a data site or spawning a pve event. It can't really be done afk style. I see salvaging as a alternate mining style play that requires you to be not afk. For sure mining a rock is damn boring. Spice it up, give it a new spin "call it salvaging" and players like me who are predisposition to avoid mining will do it because it simply isn't mining. Furthermore, since the sites deplete faster you need to spend more time searching new sites. Again proactive, attentive and possibly profitable alternative to the shoot a rock while you watch tv style we have now. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
314
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Skorn Blacksword wrote:The salvaging sites are not sufficient to call (salvaging sites). I do data/relic sites all the time. I usually end up with a few carbon and what I could salvage from one or two rats. I've made three billion ISK in two weeks doing data/relic sites. So, you're doing it wrong.
Skorn Blacksword wrote: You can't make a career in salvaging as it is now. This is where you need to listen to your elders: it used to be possible. Before MTUs. Before salvage drones. Before the Noctis. Before you joined in 2012. Alloyed Tirtanium Bars and Armor Plates used to run a half-million each, more if my memory serves. People didn't blitz missions because salvage easily doubled the value of killing the rats. But then salvaging was made easy and the market tanked.
What you want to do is going to compound your issue because you fail to recognize how supply affects prices. Your idea would make it worse for those players who (no matter how misguided it may be) are still trying to make a profession out of it. |
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elitatwo
Congregatio
349
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Skorn Blacksword wrote:So I started a discussion about salvaging
Good for you.
Skorn Blacksword wrote: First off, everyone mines. Its the most simplistic isk making career path for beginners..
Let me stop you right here. In case you are wondering why you should take a step back and look what a new account in an Ibis can do right after the first tutorial missions and joyning faction warfare.
And still the best way to make isk is moon-poo collecting. It doesn't even need any interaction, well except moving the processed poo to the markets. signature |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
4
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:[quote=Skorn Blacksword]
Let me stop you right here. In case you are wondering why you should take a step back and look what a new account in an Ibis can do right after the first tutorial missions and joyning faction warfare.
And still the best way to make isk is moon-poo collecting. It doesn't even need any interaction, well except moving the processed poo to the markets.
And this is the path that most new players take? or do they just start mining? And what about afk miners. This would Idea would be a small fast amount of reprocessed scrap. Just like mining but faster. No afk allowed, and you have to hunt down your next site as soon as its over. You can tear it apart and take the rig parts with the aggressive miner, or you can take your time and salvage as much reprocessable scrap and the rig parts. So long as some other player doesn't show up with a different idea and leave you with nothing. Social dynamics, non intrusive market effects, interactive fun, iskies~!
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Paru DracoGaurdia
Slanted Anvil
0
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Posted - 2014.10.16 04:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
i run missions and either have a corp mate or myself salvage the mission sites after everything is blown up. all you need is a noctis with one or more tractor deploys and your set. most of the time i turn the junk modules that aren't worth the time to try and sell and i just reprocess them into valuable minerals for personal use or to sell later.
I would like to see some of the "props" at mission sites be more interactive either it be collecting resources or data for agents if its an instance on the scanner. |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
2861
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Posted - 2014.10.16 04:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Not only no but **** no.
What in the exact **** is this horse****ery? "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives"-á |
elitatwo
Congregatio
350
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Posted - 2014.10.16 06:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Skorn Blacksword wrote: ... And what about afk miners...
okee you got me, I did that once. Turns out as soon as your ore-bay is filled your afk activity stops or Mag's comes along with his Catalyst and shoots mah barge.. signature |
Projak Dynamo
Pro Synergy
8
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Posted - 2014.10.16 09:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
As everyone keeps saying, EVE is a sandbox and there is no 'wrong' way of playing, as a professional salvager (as in one that uses that career to plex his accounts) I would welcome any move that would make my profession more profitable. However you also have to look at how any such modification in game mechanics would change the current markets, which are already in freefall due to the ongoing module rebalancing.
But I do think CCP could adjust current missions to allow destroyed structures to drop more loot/salvage, as a lv4 runner (in my down time) I have destroyed enough pleasure palaces and drone structures to know this would be viable, if all you got were metal scraps.
The Pro Synergy Pilot is not just a fighting man, he is a salvage expert.-áIf it is lost, in the blackness of space, he will find it. If it has been destroyed, he will loot and salvage it. If it is in his way, he will move it. If he is lucky he will be podded 20 jumps from home, for this is the closest he come to being hero.
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Dustpuppy
Rox Inc
7
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Posted - 2014.10.16 10:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:as to the part about more scrap for minerals CCP has stated they want most of the minerals in this game coming from miners not loot/salvage
It looks like you have never used a salvager in your life. You don't get modules from salvaging, you get electronic parts, plates etc. - the same stuff you get from looting/running relic sites.
What you are looking at is wreck looting. Here you get modules which can be reprocessed to minerals.
With this said I find this idea interesting. It could be something similar to data/relic site hunting with the possibility to salvage components and maybe find something in in the wreck (e.g. a remaining module). Add the possibility for different salvagers (fast, brute force / slow, less destructive).. we have a nice new idea. |
Arden Elenduil
Scary Devil Monastery
149
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Posted - 2014.10.16 14:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
To be completely honest, this profession already exists in Eve. Just probe down a random mission runner, enter his mission and start salvaging. It used to be good money, until as said before, it was made too easy, but if you know what you're doing, you can still make a pretty penny, it's also a very active and involved playstyle with interaction between different players.
Why would this have to be changed? |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
196
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Posted - 2014.10.16 15:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Honestly, I'd like to see salvaging as a more recognizable, "professional" career, but I don't think that really needs many changes.
In my opinion, if we were to make the career more accesible, we could think about a new ship: an Expedition Frigate. Another T2 Venture variant, also made by ORE, painted in blazing orange. Bonused for salvagers. Might also have scan probe bonuses (for finding those wrecks), and perhaps even a covops cloak (or at least being as evasive as the Venture, with its +2 warp strengh).
That way we have a very useful, quite cheap, dedicated plattform for salvaging. Think about it as Noctis' smaller, stealthier brother, in the same way Venture and Prospect are Mining Barges'/Exhumers' ones.
Since CCP mentioned the Prospect would be the first of a series of Expedition Frigates, this one might as well come to life soon...
With such a ship, salvagers can: steal someone else's mission wrecks, quickly take wrecks left by PVP anywhere in the game... Also, if you fit a Data/Relic Analyzer on it you can also try to get salvage from Data/Relic sites. Not that you can't already do that on other ships, but having a dedicated one is much better (think, again, about Venture and Prospect). That alone is probably enough to fund a salvaging career, but if it's not, we could think about more opportunities, such as salvageable wrecks in Data/Relics, making destroyed structures (NPC or deployables) drop a wreck too...
My only requeriment is that it is painted blazing orange. |
Eric Shang
The Bastards The Bastards.
162
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Posted - 2014.10.16 16:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
I love how the vets of eve hate change or how they flame new ideas instead of helping.
Here you have a person thats thought up something and wants to share it with people hoping that others will welcome his idea to increase the career paths for new players and enjoyment for all. Hoping that older players will help with things like fine tuning the idea and hopefully make it better with veteran knowledge behind it so when CCP looks here they see a well organized idea and can maybe even run with it.
BOOM! NO CHANCE MATE!
See that corner for stupid ideas. Yah thats it. Sit there
I get what the OP wants to do. I get that salvaging at the moment and with the current system in place is bad. Thats why you come up with a idea like this and then come up with ways of how the salvaging that is currently bad could be good.
Maybe the salvage you get from these sites help in building something or like the OP says get refined into minerals.
Like you do with ore in mining.
Member of The Bastards - http://www.the-bastards.net/
My Pirate Journey: http://ericshangthepirate.wordpress.com/ |
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
330
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Posted - 2014.10.16 17:06:22 -
[21] - Quote
Eric Shang wrote:I love how the vets of eve hate change or how they flame new ideas instead of helping. If you see someone banging their head into a wall, are you being more helpful by encouraging their activity, or by teaching them to use a door? |
Iain Cariaba
543
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Posted - 2014.10.16 19:01:53 -
[22] - Quote
Eric Shang wrote:I love how the vets of eve hate change or how they flame new ideas instead of helping. Maybe if 1-2 year players would come up with new ideas, we would be more helpful. Really, how many times are we supposed to be helpful to the same repetitive ideas?
As to OP's idea, salvaging as a career has already been decimated by the introduction of MTUs. Mission runners used to salvage nearly every mission, but now they don't. They stopped because the salvage market tanked and it became more profitable to blitz the missions.
Now, OP regurgitates yet another previously posted idea to increase availability of salvage, thereby driving the prices down even further, and I'm supposedly the bad guy because I don't want that small portion of my income to dwindle even further.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
924
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Posted - 2014.10.16 19:23:52 -
[23] - Quote
the only way too make this viable is if you aren't just adding more salvage (which will reduce the value) is too add new stuff that is salvageable to the higher skilled dedicated salvager.
so rather than just stuff that affects rigs it needs too be something else without killing the market on the new stuff you can salvage .. not sure what that stuff is mind .. perhaps some undamaged recoverable parts ..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Eric Shang
The Bastards The Bastards.
170
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Posted - 2014.10.16 19:35:54 -
[24] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Eric Shang wrote:I love how the vets of eve hate change or how they flame new ideas instead of helping. If you see someone banging their head into a wall, are you being more helpful by encouraging their activity, or by teaching them to use a door?
If you have to teach them to use the door then the door is the problem. Its clearly not marked correctly or in the right position. Clearly people banging there head on the same wall is a problem and should be solved rather than diverted.
If this topic comes up again and again then my thinking is that there clearly is a need for it.
By not looking into the matter and clearly stating the reasons for not bringing in changes like this it will just be repeated.
The idea is a good idea. How it happens to work out is another matter.
I agree with this:
Harvey James wrote: the only way too make this viable is if you aren't just adding more salvage (which will reduce the value) is too add new stuff that is salvageable to the higher skilled dedicated salvager.
so rather than just stuff that affects rigs it needs too be something else without killing the market on the new stuff you can salvage .. not sure what that stuff is mind .. perhaps some undamaged recoverable parts ..
He actually thought of a positive bit of information to help the OP.
Iain Cariaba: the problem you have is you think of the game as it is right now. (Dont worry. You and a lot of vets do the same thing) You don't think of how the game is for new players now and you don't think of how it could be. Don't be messing with my eve!!! It effects my isk income so therefore I don't like this.
Member of The Bastards - http://www.the-bastards.net/
My Pirate Journey:
http://ericshangthepirate.wordpress.com/
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Iain Cariaba
543
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Posted - 2014.10.16 21:11:45 -
[25] - Quote
Eric Shang wrote:Iain Cariaba: the problem you have is you think of the game as it is right now. (Dont worry. You and a lot of vets do the same thing) You don't think of how the game is for new players now and you don't think of how it could be. Don't be messing with my eve!!! It effects my isk income so therefore I don't like this.
Here you get into Malcanis' Law. EvE is a game where anything done to make the game "easier for the noobs" instantly becomes utterly abused by the vets. Besides, the current game for new players is a lot easier than when us vets started. Those who decry ideas like this do, indeed, think of how the game could be. We look at ideas in a manner of how people will abuse them, because in EvE, it is a certainty that it will be abused.
Also, just because I can estimate the future effects of the idea, and think an idea bad because of that viewpoint, doesn't mean it will effect my income. I don't salvage, and the few relic sites I run get donated to corp. Your logic fails there.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
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Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
330
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Posted - 2014.10.16 21:14:40 -
[26] - Quote
Eric Shang wrote:If you have to teach them to use the door then the door is the problem. Its clearly not marked correctly or in the right position. Clearly people banging there head on the same wall is a problem and should be solved rather than diverted. Obviously we must nerf economics, then.
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Nevil Oscillator
29
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Posted - 2014.10.16 23:14:28 -
[27] - Quote
Absolute Quality Stuff
Another devious suggestion
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Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
6
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Posted - 2014.10.17 03:37:10 -
[28] - Quote
I addressed market impact of this idea. A wreck is going to be mostly scrap (recycle it). Give the salvager a range of different type of scrap. The scrap should be the most common yield, and have different reprocessed yields.. Rig parts are a less often reward. If balanced right the rig industry would be preserved, and the salvager would get incomes more in line with that of a miner. As skills progress your isk/hour improves and if your after rig parts then you'll improve your chances of rig parts. If you just want to recycle scrap you can do that faster. The simplistic solution is that your making salvagers into miners by giving them scrap to recycle. But at the same time its not boring afk shoot a rock mining. You have to scan down, then salvage a lot of small wrecks. If you find a big wreck there is still the chance to uncover data/relic sites inside the wreck. Or you could spawn npc's. Lets say every time you critically fail a salvage attempt there is a .1% chance that something huge happens like a swarm of avi spawn on the sight and chase everyone off. Or the site becomes contested with pirates who want the salvage. |
Skorn Blacksword
Black Hat Frigates Vae. Victis.
6
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Posted - 2014.10.19 04:01:09 -
[29] - Quote
are we allowed to bump our own threads to keep the conversation going?
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Nevil Oscillator
24
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Posted - 2014.10.19 10:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Eric Shang wrote:I love how the vets of eve hate change or how they flame new ideas instead of helping. If you see someone banging their head into a wall, are you being more helpful by encouraging their activity, or by teaching them to use a door?
That is an interesting issue, vets appear to be more focused on the environment that players create. Understandably they are a bit defensive about moving the goal posts in a game that has already started. Adjusting natural resources which could also be described as anything NPC's provide too, is a bit dodgy because player corps have set up their operation based on the existing New Eden situation. Another devious suggestion |
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