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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
37
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.
*Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.
*Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.
*Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.
*Have the worthless iteration of the NPC spawn on lvl 1&2 systems. Have the current NPC be added to that on an upgrade of 3&4. Have the high dps NPC everyone hated be added to these two in a buffed lvl 5 system. This would allow miserable deeps from new pilots/Caldari to be able to farm low priority systems while giving us a way to maintain a defendable home system that is @V from being bled by mere farmers.
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:43:14 -
[2] - Quote
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.
1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.
2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.
3) Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.
4) ::edit::Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.::edit:: |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
20
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:53:56 -
[3] - Quote
If a system is a high priority it would be defended by players. Wouldn't it?
Ultimately, I do take issue with the amount of LP farming I see happening. Sometimes it is fun to chase farmers around, but a lot of the time is it even more boring than running a plex. That being said, if I chase a farmer away I am usually spiteful enough to run the clock on the plex I found him in and thanks to the unreasonable tank on the plex rats can rest safe knowing that he isn't capping a different plex than the one I am currently in. What I find most annoying is when I do catch them, shoot them for a while and then watch helplessly as they warp off, but hey that is how he chose to fit his ship and his combat ability suffers for it (and I am apparently no better than an NPC at that point). Do I think he should be able to contest one of my systems? No, obviously not. But as the mechanics stand he does and it means that I have a lot of dplexing to do once he has had his fill of LP and that sucks.
A lot of farmers are nice enough to leave when you ask them to, though. I wish more would do that. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:07:25 -
[4] - Quote
Most definitely, but during off hours and before the NPC buff, there used to be solo Russian Condors that would plex all night in Heyd, OMS, or Lad.
And, honestly, I've never really tried to ask any to vacate. ::scratches head::
Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp. Not many of us use the indie slots.
The extermination of SB's from low would make a massive impact on brother militias, where these bombers infest space and the reason half their plexes are empty. |
Paranoid Loyd
2383
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:13:50 -
[5] - Quote
Unfortunately, making it PVP based, makes it exploitable.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association 24eme Legion Etrangere
141
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:14:21 -
[6] - Quote
I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.
You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).
However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.
The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.
You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).
Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:48:26 -
[7] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.
You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).
However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.
The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.
You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).
Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.
I doubt people will fall below t2 with these defensive plex auto-donate system. It would have to be against a full push and a hellish NPC upgrading of owned systems. But I could only imagine. I really do enjoy the current payout when we are pushing high tiers, and the mission arguement does not apply too well in the Gallente theatre. No SB missioning up here. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:50:23 -
[8] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Unfortunately, making it PVP based, makes it exploitable.
I haven't really introduced anything new pvp-wise in any of this, just uber nerfs to solo LP gains. |
Paranoid Loyd
2383
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:56:30 -
[9] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp. I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.16 01:00:42 -
[10] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp. I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying.
Ah. Ye, the indie buffs are cool, but these npc's could really f* with offensives and make donations more relevant besides upping tiers. |
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.16 19:10:25 -
[11] - Quote
I changed my mind on that last NPC proposed change. Forgive my brief lapse of retardation, as I see now that change would discourage pvp in at its best. The 1v1's and small gang that, at the moment, completely ignore the npc in most cases before a plex engagement. Maybe better: *Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V. |
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
68
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Posted - 2014.10.20 11:47:40 -
[12] - Quote
I see a lot less of farmers nowadays. I think it's thanks to the active tank the rats have now. I'd guess it's harder to break that tank with 4x WCS punisher
You're kicking a dead horse trying to nerf the income for low SP characters that cannot do missions (while you can - for a lot more than they can make lol).
I think most of them won't be arsed to stay with the game anyway (dunno why - I meet quite a lot of newbies and I'm getting a suspicion they rage quit when confronted with endless timer starring. I enjoy that part of game - allows me to listen to e radios \o/), but for the sake of those that do - I hope plexing will remain to be a steady source of income to those that need it.
Some people are so fixated on farmers they forget normal people farm too. I always wonder how they make their money in game.
"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
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exiik Shardani
Terpene Conglomerate
12
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Posted - 2014.10.20 13:29:55 -
[13] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.
2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when engagement are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.
bad idea, if it be applied -> results to "some systems never get finished any FW complex" why? because heavy traffic, many neutrals etc. (like Huola, Siseide, Kourm etc heavily defended and traffic system in A/M FW zone).
When rewards from FW get down, many ppl leave FW, because they have not enoughs ISKs for fights... It is much hard hold your sec status up when FW members get so many attacks from neutrals and sometimes do not meet any WT...
I prefer something like "contribution reward/discount" for FW members who actively shoot iHubs, do PvP or contribute to theirs side militias |
Thanatos Marathon
Phoibe Enterprises
333
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 13:38:12 -
[14] - Quote
If he thinks the farmers are bad now he should have come around before they changed the rats.
BLFOX is currently recruiting
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
496
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 15:48:48 -
[15] - Quote
Just make FW missions be Anomic Agent/Team missions (aka Burner missions). That should eliminate the ability of solo SBs doing FW missions. |
Ashwind Houssa
Heart of Pyerite Imperial Outlaws.
17
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Posted - 2014.10.20 16:12:01 -
[16] - Quote
The FW missions farmers are of little to no concern because they don't really impact warzone control. Besides, getting a friend and running htem in VNIs or Ishtars is so much faster, that I am honestly surprised at how many people still use bombers.
If you really want to stop farmers, ban the Venture from plexes, and increase the DPS check on medium and large plexes. |
Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
61
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Posted - 2014.10.20 20:20:59 -
[17] - Quote
I want more isk |
Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
94
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 21:32:54 -
[18] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.
You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).
However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.
The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.
You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).
Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.
the problem with this idea is it would nuke the incentive to dplex, which becomes a necessary activity at T3-T4 when there are more systems to defend than to attack. it's already virtually impossible to keep up momentum at T4 even with the current payout structure, it's likely that your idea would lead to a permanent stalemate because the incentive to lead a push just wouldn't be strong enough. the current boom-and-bust cycle is not really so bad when you think about how it enables PvP dynamics, levelling the field would just make for a boring status quo.
My terribad blog where I QQ and rage about Amarr FW
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
247
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 21:45:30 -
[19] - Quote
Resetting to neutral timers is a good idea. The rest I don't really see a point for.
If you want to really make it more about PvP the easy answer is to restrict the capturable warzone to the border systems to funnel people into conflict with each-other. If you also set up a supply line concept for the behind lines systems (basically, make it so that you need a chain of systems to friendly high sec or your capturable systems become much easier to take) then you would add a large amount of strategy to the system control game.
I would also really love to see FW missions removed entirely.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor!
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May Arethusa
PillowBrigade Inc Heiian Conglomerate
21
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Posted - 2014.10.21 00:05:09 -
[20] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.
1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.
2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.
3) Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.
4) ::edit::Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.::edit::
1. Why? Has zero impact upon occupancy (the only reason why farmers were/are an issue), and cuts down on traffic into low-sec because literally nobody will bother running them.
2. No. There are already methods in place for dissuading farmers from running plexes in a system, and it involves the current timer mechanics. Rollbacks only encourage the use of neutral parties (alts or otherwise) to keep people from running down a plex by repeatedly chasing them out. The timer isn't the issue.
3. Dropping the LP bonuses per tier is a much more efficient way of reducing the attractiveness of FW for making isk. It isn't until a faction reaches T3+ that farmers swarm to cash in. Reducing the payout per plex across all tiers only makes defensive plexing less worthwhile at lower tiers, which is when it is usually needed most.
4. Not a terrible idea, the current system upgrades are largely useless.
Said it before, and I'll say it again: Ban WCS from FW plexes. There goes 50% of your problem. Make offensive and defensive plexing equal in terms of effort (killing rats in both) covers the other 50%. |
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Cattegirn
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2014.10.23 21:52:41 -
[21] - Quote
Do you guys know how FW is setup to balance out in the long run? It seems on the face of it, that winning in FW leads to more LP through tier upgrade, which means the winning side gets stronger and the losing side gets weaker. Some losing side players also switch sides to the winning team and others just do FW less. So there is a trend to snowball the wining team.
But it's lowsec, so there is no way for one team to really wipe the other one out. So what happens to balance the war? Is there some mechanic that makes it harder for one team to keep the lead, or does the war just reset at some point?
Don't tell me they go forever with one team the winner and the other the loser. |
Cattegirn
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2014.10.23 21:58:30 -
[22] - Quote
If you want more PVP shouldn't the LP be increased? It seems to me that's the way to draw in targets, and if you want to fight anything bigger than cloaky stabbed frigates in mission hubs you need to make the reward for doing them enough to pay for a battleship and make the targets tanky enough to require it. Then you WILL get battleships and other interesting combinations coming in. Some missions now already require a lot of DPS and that's good, but the reward doesn't make it worth bringing in a real ship. "But I want to fight other pvpers" - still could, in fact you'd have more of them, as a bunch of the types that only like juicy targets with lots of loot will be around. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.23 22:55:45 -
[23] - Quote
[quote=May Arethusa]
1. Why? Has zero impact upon occupancy (the only reason why farmers were/are an issue), and cuts down on traffic into low-sec because literally nobody will bother running them.
*That's exactly the reason why I proposed such a change, as many pilots join FW for the sole purpose of running FW missions and nothing else. Leaving things as they are would affect the warzone just the same, where this change would make missions such a pain in the rear as to get pvp pilots that are stuck doing missions for riches to actually get back into the plexing war. My problem is with non-combat FW pilots, which a majority are found in stabbed hulls and Stealth Bombers. Thanatos is right that it was much worse before and the changes made to NPC's was a great thing, but it shifted all the plexers, from the idle button spinning, into SB's.
2. No. There are already methods in place for dissuading farmers from running plexes in a system, and it involves the current timer mechanics. Rollbacks only encourage the use of neutral parties (alts or otherwise) to keep people from running down a plex by repeatedly chasing them out. The timer isn't the issue.
*That is another reason why I wish to implement it exactly. So what? So what if you get chased out? Fight for your plex/LP! And if you can't do it by yourself start a fleet and get 'er done. Perhaps the fleet window will not be so empty for you guys.
3. Dropping the LP bonuses per tier is a much more efficient way of reducing the attractiveness of FW for making isk. It isn't until a faction reaches T3+ that farmers swarm to cash in. Reducing the payout per plex across all tiers only makes defensive plexing less worthwhile at lower tiers, which is when it is usually needed most.
*I'm trying to pass the most minute nerf to dplexing that I could. The ISK we make is really needed and the LP payout for high tiers only incentivizes pvp with pvp'ers that don't have to worry about ISK. The payout is fine as it is, but dplexing needs a slight nerf and curb stomp. Dual timers gives PVP'ers the satisfaction of LP Denial tactics. Yes, some of us are stubborn enough even NOW to stay through a bloated timer.
-Oreb
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.23 22:59:52 -
[24] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Just make FW missions be Anomic Agent/Team missions (aka Burner missions). That should eliminate the ability of solo SBs doing FW missions.
No. There are people even now that bring in an alt logi ship to rep them through a burner mission. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.23 23:05:37 -
[25] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.
You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).
However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.
The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.
You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).
Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side. the problem with this idea is it would nuke the incentive to dplex, which becomes a necessary activity at T3-T4 when there are more systems to defend than to attack. it's already virtually impossible to keep up momentum at T4 even with the current payout structure, it's likely that your idea would lead to a permanent stalemate because the incentive to lead a push just wouldn't be strong enough. the current boom-and-bust cycle is not really so bad when you think about how it enables PvP dynamics, levelling the field would just make for a boring status quo.
You have not witnessed the iron will of some of our Gallente pilots. If an auto-donate system were applied to Dplexing, it would help tremendously in sustaining tiers and system control on an offensive push. The difficulty of total warzone control is intrinsic to means of that end. Only a concentrated and united push by many bodies makes it possible. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 23:33:19 -
[26] - Quote
exiik Shardani wrote:Oreb Wing wrote:I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.
2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when engagement are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.
bad idea, if it be applied -> results to "some systems never get finished any FW complex" why? because heavy traffic, many neutrals etc. (like Huola, Siseide, Kourm etc heavily defended and traffic system in A/M FW zone). When rewards from FW get down, many ppl leave FW, because they have not enoughs ISKs for fights... It is much hard hold your sec status up when FW members get so many attacks from neutrals and sometimes do not meet any WT... I prefer something like "contribution reward/discount" for FW members who actively shoot iHubs, do PvP or contribute to theirs side militias
first paragraph: The comparative systems on our side are probably OMS, Heyd, and Prism. Those ihub fights are the best. What is the problem?
I agree with your last point. Maybe we could cash in WT kills for tags. You have to give up some ideas. I've asked repeatedly that non-FW pilots should be criminally flagged, but WHEN is the debate. When they enter system? When they activate a plex/mission acceleration gate? Discounts based on rank? That would probably require a reset after a balance pass, as FW missions are far too easy for some factions, generals usually being PVE pilots without a single solo kill. Larger payout from the bunker bust? Perhaps some calculation based on the number of plex's ran in that system? That would be awesome. You have to throw some more detail into it. |
Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
8
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Posted - 2014.10.30 03:46:07 -
[27] - Quote
seriously what's wrong with LP? So farmers farm your system. If you can't handle farmers being in your system you won't handle a proper militia rag tag team anyways. IT's a moot point they are not capping your systems or keeping it capped. As it stands, the high Tier is giving tons of LP Yes but soon (very soon) that's going to kill the market for LP. Amarr LP is falling rapidly in price. Just look at the price on an Omen Navy Issue. Soon enough Minmatar will rally and Amarr will get complacent and we'll see the exact opposite happen. |
Luwc
Confederation of Independent Contractors Swamphole
266
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 07:48:39 -
[28] - Quote
no
http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
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Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
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Posted - 2014.10.30 12:00:51 -
[29] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:seriously what's wrong with LP? So farmers farm your system. If you can't handle farmers being in your system you won't handle a proper militia rag tag team anyways. IT's a moot point they are not capping your systems or keeping it capped. As it stands, the high Tier is giving tons of LP Yes but soon (very soon) that's going to kill the market for LP. Amarr LP is falling rapidly in price. Just look at the price on an Omen Navy Issue. Soon enough Minmatar will rally and Amarr will get complacent and we'll see the exact opposite happen.
::sigh:: The fact that you think tier is a revolving door proves my point. Don't let it hit you on the way out. |
Oreb Wing
Windrammers Bohica Empire
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 16:29:37 -
[30] - Quote
I wish to add, to my short pompous quip, that Enaluri is less than 5% contested. Also, I want to ask you if you seriously believe mission farming has not been the cause of your navy cruisers bottoming out at <50m, or that the cause of the PURPOSEFULLY neglected warzone control swing is not due to pilots that have fattened themselves on so much - TOO much - lp that theyabandon systems so their investments have more value?
Ask a squid when was the last time they saw us in T1. |
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