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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Metal Icarus
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
706
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:00:00 -
[481] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:From the CSM8 winter minutesQuote:Discussion then moved to bombers, with PGL saying that they were arguably more of an issue than drone assist. He pointed out that as it is, you donGÇÖt see cruiser or BC or shield BS fleets in fights, entirely because of bomb risks. He highlighted where heGÇÖs seen bombs failing to destroy other bombs, resulting in more damage. Sort confirmed that bombers had made it effectively impossible to bring BC fleets, and mentioned the chilling effect on training new FCs with cheaper ships. Fozzie asked if bombers were weakened significantly, would we see anything other than battleship fleets. Various CSM members responded they would likely bring more fleets other than battleship fleets. There was general agreement that bombers should be able to punish careless or bad FC decisions, but that it is currently simply too easy for them right now. because PGL brought it up earlier AND someone asked why SB's were being worked on. m progodlegend wrote:
The CSM is doing our job, most of these changes were ideas that came directly from the CSM. In reinstatement of the "cloaked ships decloak each other" mechanic is a direct result from last year's winter summit conversation on fleet warfare balance.
Actually, half of these changes were listed in the minutes of last years winter summits I'm pretty sure. If not listed they were at least summarized or hinted at.
Bros, you're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, bombers are a problem. Or rather, perfectly synchronized, perfectly coordinated bombers are a problem. A little over a year ago I was in Curse during the thunderdome. I never saw a roaming PL fleet without an isboxed bombing fleet in tow. Most anyone in the CFC that's fought against pasta is probably quite familiar with Ammzi and Space. Many that fought against the cfc know Oodell. Look at all of the major fleet fights which got bombed over the past year. How many of them didn't involve isboxer? Maybe one or two. How many involved isboxed bombers? Almost all of them.The primary difficulty associated with bombers is organizational. Isboxer bypasses this difficulty. Re-balancing bombers, and ignoring isboxer, is the equivalent of doing this. And that's what most people on the first ten pages of this thread, on the reddit thread, on failheap, TMC, or EN24 are telling you. And you aren't representing that.These changes hurt normal bomber groups (which are a dying breed quite frankly) far more than they effect isboxer. Ammzi and Space have explained that in detail in this thread and the reddit thread.
Confirming that I too once had a SFI that was bombed by Oodell in Curse....
Does ISBoxing bomber fleets have to be considered a special case? Should there be SPECIFIC action against it? Do they even have to touch bombers if they just took action against ISBoxing bomber fleets?
Otherwise how should they adjust mechanics to counter this? Adding in something like "arming bombs with a code" seems weird, buf if it prevents automation of bombing runs, I could get behind it.
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2357
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:09:00 -
[482] - Quote
Metal Icarus wrote: Confirming that I too once had a SFI that was bombed by Oodell in Curse....
Does ISBoxing bomber fleets have to be considered a special case? Should there be SPECIFIC action against it? Do they even have to touch bombers if they just took action against ISBoxing bomber fleets?
Otherwise how should they adjust mechanics to counter this? Adding in something like "arming bombs with a code" seems weird, buf if it prevents automation of bombing runs, I could get behind it.
The thing with isboxed bombers is that, at least in nullsec, there are many more successful isboxing bombing runs happening every week then there are non-isboxed bombing fleets happening every month. PGL and and Mike posted about the problems of bombed fleets, how an FC can't take his fleet anywhere without getting bombed. That problem is inescapably intertwined with isboxer. Ignoring that is myopic.
It's a sad state of affairs, but isboxers are now the primary use case of bombers. |
MetalJacke1 McKenzie
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc. Almost Awesome.
0
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 -
[483] - Quote
Take away agility and warp speed. We're still talking about frigates right? |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
821
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:12:00 -
[484] - Quote
the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
how is that not absolute insanity to anyone else that these suggestions came "directly from the CSM" when the only exposure that the csm has to bombers with cloaks is getting put into the dumpster by them
of course those people are going to have skewed opinions. of course you can say the same about the people who actively use bombs, and thats why you should listen to both sides. you definitely should not listen exclusively to the side proposing bombers de-cloaking each other again when that side is well known for flying bombers without cloaks, regardless of their position as CSM delegates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1872
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:30:00 -
[485] - Quote
Capqu wrote:the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
how is that not absolute insanity to anyone else that these suggestions came "directly from the CSM" when the only exposure that the csm has to bombers with cloaks is getting put into the dumpster by them
of course those people are going to have skewed opinions. of course you can say the same about the people who actively use bombs, and thats why you should listen to both sides. you definitely should not listen exclusively to the side proposing bombers de-cloaking each other again when that side is well known for flying bombers without cloaks, regardless of their position as CSM delegates.
Lobbying at its finest. |
elitatwo
Congregatio
360
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:30:00 -
[486] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: -snip- Fixed it back. The point was a dumbfire missile. Honestly, if any moving subcap actually collides with a bomb, it deserves to take a shitload of damage.
Potato thank you,
you just gave me an idea about bombs in general!
Collision charges!
They effect only one target like those neut-bombs but only on impact. So girls and boys make sure you aim those things right or there is no explosion to watch signature |
wheniaminspuce
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:32:00 -
[487] - Quote
wheniaminspoce wrote:It would not be out of the ordinary or difficult for CCP to ban a specific activity (such as ISBoxing bombs) within their game. There is plenty of gray area in CCP's policies, and ultimately a lot of things are decided based on how that particular GM feels on the day he opens your ticket. Rumors abound that people soloed by ISBoxers are being quietly reimbursed, which is CCP playing both sides of the fence basically; having their cake and eating it.
Some examples of murky policies within Eve where nobody really understands where the line is drawn:
*Real life harassment *Account sharing *Bumping things out of shields *Spamming deployables *Accidentally dropping some RAM into a tractor unit *ISBoxer PvP
World of Warcraft banned multiboxing in PvP; why is CCP so reluctant to take a stance on this? Why are they willing to punish an entire class of ships for the activities of a handful of people that they could easily stop? I have my suspicions but I would prefer to believe this is a case of ignorance rather than willful profiteering at the cost of gameplay and balance.
I agree completely. CCP loves to have a lot of wiggle room in their policies and leaving everything up to their discretion without explicitly stating what that is. Here is a perfect opportunity for them to exercise that discretion instead of damaging their game and they are ignoring the issue entirely. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
555
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:34:00 -
[488] - Quote
wheniaminspuce wrote:wheniaminspoce wrote:It would not be out of the ordinary or difficult for CCP to ban a specific activity (such as ISBoxing bombs) within their game. There is plenty of gray area in CCP's policies, and ultimately a lot of things are decided based on how that particular GM feels on the day he opens your ticket. Rumors abound that people soloed by ISBoxers are being quietly reimbursed, which is CCP playing both sides of the fence basically; having their cake and eating it.
Some examples of murky policies within Eve where nobody really understands where the line is drawn:
*Real life harassment *Account sharing *Bumping things out of shields *Spamming deployables *Accidentally dropping some RAM into a tractor unit *ISBoxer PvP
World of Warcraft banned multiboxing in PvP; why is CCP so reluctant to take a stance on this? Why are they willing to punish an entire class of ships for the activities of a handful of people that they could easily stop? I have my suspicions but I would prefer to believe this is a case of ignorance rather than willful profiteering at the cost of gameplay and balance. I agree completely. CCP loves to have a lot of wiggle room in their policies and leaving everything up to their discretion without explicitly stating what that is. Here is a perfect opportunity for them to exercise that discretion instead of damaging their game and they are ignoring the issue entirely in favor of poorly designed band-aids and reintroducing bugs as features. Nice to see you agreeing with yourself? CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
161
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Posted - 2014.10.17 15:37:00 -
[489] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: -snip- Fixed it back. The point was a dumbfire missile. Honestly, if any moving subcap actually collides with a bomb, it deserves to take a shitload of damage. Potato thank you, you just gave me an idea about bombs in general! Collision charges! They effect only one target like those neut-bombs but only on impact. So girls and boys make sure you aim those things right or there is no explosion to watch but there would need to be a minimum range or you would just have bombers warping right on top of ships for a guaranteed hit. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
330
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:00:00 -
[490] - Quote
Capqu wrote:the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
how is that not absolute insanity to anyone else that these suggestions came "directly from the CSM" when the only exposure that the csm has to bombers with cloaks is getting put into the dumpster by them
of course those people are going to have skewed opinions. of course you can say the same about the people who actively use bombs, and thats why you should listen to both sides. you definitely should not listen exclusively to the side proposing bombers de-cloaking each other again when that side is well known for flying bombers without cloaks, regardless of their position as CSM delegates.
You need to 'all' quit blowing up the carebear null tears ships. There can be no ships blown up in null.
Game fixt. |
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Sbrodor
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:00:00 -
[491] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:[
Look at all of the major fleet fights which got bombed over the past year. How many of them didn't involve isboxer? Maybe one or two. How many involved isboxed bombers? Almost all of them.
i totally disagree. i know at least a couple of corp bombing oriented and they dunt use never isbox (cause they are all differente real people coordinating in ts3 ).
I never never seen isbox in south of new eden. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13655
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 16:05:00 -
[492] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Techno Model wrote:Stay the course Fozzie, do not let these lightweights from a single alliance sway you with their tear laden posts. Stay strong CCP and buff those bombers into awesomeness.
I'm guessing you don't fly bombers in Empire? The nerf to mobility seriously impacts their ability to fly with roaming frigate gangs without gimping said gang's most important asset: mobility.
If I can get a battleship to roam with frigates you can get a bomber to do it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2602
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:11:00 -
[493] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Nice to see you agreeing with yourself? CCP please ban ISBoxing posters! |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1517
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 16:22:00 -
[494] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:Techno Model wrote:Stay the course Fozzie, do not let these lightweights from a single alliance sway you with their tear laden posts. Stay strong CCP and buff those bombers into awesomeness.
I'm guessing you don't fly bombers in Empire? The nerf to mobility seriously impacts their ability to fly with roaming frigate gangs without gimping said gang's most important asset: mobility. If I can get a battleship to roam with frigates you can get a bomber to do it. Now the question is, how is your new (assuming you got it) Moros going to keep up? |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
843
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:31:00 -
[495] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Soldarius wrote:[quote=PotatoOverdose] Any chance of seeing more "interesting" bomb types along these lines? Something like this, for example:
Explosion Radius: 4000 Thermal Damage: 20,000 Flight Time: 15s Velocity: 2000m/s AoE Range: One Meter
So a single target munition that has to be aimed and actually hit it's target, but has a relatively high damage to compensate. I'm thinking something like an "armor piercing" round (or bomb) compared to all of the "high explosive" rounds we have now. Only problem i see with these is that they wouldn't be able to hit each other so you could launch as many as you had bombers so 15 or so bombers could 1 shot a carrier. how ever i would love to see more of these types of bombs but that do support type damage (like the neut) at least until a counter other then smart bombs can be found.
Wait wait wait. 1-shotting caps with bombers... I like this idea. How about this:
Makes the expRad and AoE (at least the expRad) changes to all damage bombs. Now bombs are anti-cap weapons and don't work well or at all vs subcaps. ENTIRE PROBLEM SOLVED, and now we have cool new anti-capital ship weapons.
EDIT: Adjust bomb application stats is what many of us have been saying for a while now.
Also, while we're at it, can we get the old torpedo AoE graphics applied to bombs? The AoE shockwave effect was really cool and well-suited to AoE weapons like bombs. "Remember remember the 4th of November!" Phoebe. Coming soon to Eve Online. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13656
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 16:31:00 -
[496] - Quote
Rowells wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:Techno Model wrote:Stay the course Fozzie, do not let these lightweights from a single alliance sway you with their tear laden posts. Stay strong CCP and buff those bombers into awesomeness.
I'm guessing you don't fly bombers in Empire? The nerf to mobility seriously impacts their ability to fly with roaming frigate gangs without gimping said gang's most important asset: mobility. If I can get a battleship to roam with frigates you can get a bomber to do it. Now the question is, how is your new (assuming you got it) Moros going to keep up?
It wont. Shes at best a cruiser gang ship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
315
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 16:36:00 -
[497] - Quote
wheniaminspuce wrote:Here is a perfect opportunity for them to exercise that discretion instead of damaging their game and they are ignoring the issue entirely in favor of poorly designed band-aids and reintroducing bugs as features. Unfortunately I think CCP is pretty reliant on ISBoxer for subscriptions. Banning it would hurt their bottom line too much as the Replicators of the shard unsubscribe their dozens of alts. The game's addicted to it, and withdrawal will be a complete b****.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
491
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:47:00 -
[498] - Quote
Sbrodor wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:[
Look at all of the major fleet fights which got bombed over the past year. How many of them didn't involve isboxer? Maybe one or two. How many involved isboxed bombers? Almost all of them.
i totally disagree. i know at least a couple of corp bombing oriented and they dunt use never isbox (cause they are all differente real people coordinating in ts3 ). I never never seen isbox in south of new eden.
clearly you are totally f**king blind then. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
176
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:49:00 -
[499] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:wheniaminspuce wrote:Here is a perfect opportunity for them to exercise that discretion instead of damaging their game and they are ignoring the issue entirely in favor of poorly designed band-aids and reintroducing bugs as features. Unfortunately I think CCP is pretty reliant on ISBoxer for subscriptions. Banning it would hurt their bottom line too much as the Replicators of the shard unsubscribe their dozens of alts. The game's addicted to it, and withdrawal will be a complete b****.
I call BS. How many ISboxers do you think are paying for their subscriptions in cash vs how many PLEX via ISK? My guess is that a huge percentage if not all are doing it via PLEX/ISK meaning that they money for those accounts is coming from other people buying the item, not from their own cash wallets. It would not hurt CCP in the least to lose them and perhaps help from the ripple effect it might have on other players enjoyment in the areas where ISB impacts... |
Vel'drinn
Sol Research and Development Aurora Foundation
39
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:49:00 -
[500] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Unfortunately I think CCP is pretty reliant on ISBoxer for subscriptions. Banning it would hurt their bottom line too much as the Replicators of the shard unsubscribe their dozens of alts. The game's addicted to it, and withdrawal will be a complete b****.
Might as well make it a feature then and add it to all the power of 2 promos.
It is upsetting that the mention of ISBoxer is being dismissed as irrelevant. People seem to universally recognize that its bad for the game and especially PvP but the cash flow makes the rule.
Business integrity -1.
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elitatwo
Congregatio
361
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Posted - 2014.10.17 16:54:00 -
[501] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: ... but there would need to be a minimum range or you would just have bombers warping right on top of ships for a guaranteed hit.
Hey Lugh,
that's why I left values out of this. Sometimes I get ideas when I read here and post them without thinking them through and sometimes it turns out it wasn't a good idea after all.
So if I have an idea that others think is a good one and agree we can talk numbers and restrictions. (if x do dat; else don't, hehe) signature |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1694
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 17:08:00 -
[502] - Quote
Capqu wrote:the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
couple of corrections
1) do you assume that all csm fly only on their mains? 2) Ali is female 3) When time and duties allow, I fly and keep in touch with the Bombers Bar. When this dev blog went out the first thing I did was go in channel with them and talk about the changes . . . with people it directly effected. I do NOT talk from a position of inexperience, I talk to the people who ARE experienced and try to represent them.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
330
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 17:17:00 -
[503] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Capqu wrote:the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
couple of corrections 1) do you assume that all csm fly only on their mains? 2) Ali is female 3) When time and duties allow, I fly and keep in touch with the Bombers Bar. When this dev blog went out the first thing I did was go in channel with them and talk about the changes . . . with people it directly effected. I do NOT talk from a position of inexperience, I talk to the people who ARE experienced and try to represent them. m
That says it all, meaning nothing. |
Dirk Morbho
Mindstar Technology Get Off My Lawn
16
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:23:00 -
[504] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Let's talk Stealth Bombers!
A new anti-capital void bomb with a tiny range and a large explosion radius. You need to land it right on your target but if you hit a cap ship it will eat a ton of cap.
:content: alert!
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Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
438
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:24:00 -
[505] - Quote
wheniaminspoce wrote: *Accidentally dropping some RAM into a tractor unit
I'm here just to point out that the velocity which the hamburger left my mouth at when reading this caused permanent damage to the drywall. |
Aram Kachaturian
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
132
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:31:00 -
[506] - Quote
I checked all your killboards one by one, killmail by killmail and as I thought a large part of you has no ******* idea how bombing worked prior to 2012 and didnt bomb intensively at all before and after.
You are just complaining to ruin CCP Fozzie weekend and that's not cool. Official Poster:-áhttp://i.imgur.com/oTdKSTi.jpg (Limited stock, contact me to order) |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
160
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:32:00 -
[507] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:wheniaminspoce wrote: *Accidentally dropping some RAM into a tractor unit
I'm here just to point out that the velocity which the hamburger left my mouth at when reading this caused permanent damage to the drywall.
it could happen to anyone
don't act like you've never dropped anything only to see a tractor unit instantly grab it and pull it away from your grasp leaving you no recourse but to shoot it gay gamers for jesus |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
823
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:33:00 -
[508] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Capqu wrote:the csm may indeed be doing its job, but noone on the csm has any actual experience with bombing fleets / isbombing. in fact i looked up all the csm members and the only one with any appreciable background using bombs is Ali Aras, and he isn't the most active of pilots with no activity since june and sub a hundred bombing kills before that.
couple of corrections 1) do you assume that all csm fly only on their mains? 2) Ali is female 3) When time and duties allow, I fly and keep in touch with the Bombers Bar. When this dev blog went out the first thing I did was go in channel with them and talk about the changes . . . with people it directly effected. I do NOT talk from a position of inexperience, I talk to the people who ARE experienced and try to represent them. m
1) yes. i feel like its reasonable for the most part to expect your main to reflect your play-style somewhat 2) not relevant 3) i appreciate that you did that, but after the devblog has come out is often too late, which i pretty much am resigned into believing this time around too. i am aware that is not your fault and not in your control. as for speaking from a position of inexperience, maybe you don't, but you are not the only csm and its not unheard of for people to push their own agendas at a detriment to the greater good.
basically im depressed and disappointed as hell because this isn't the first time ccp has ignored minority player base when they destroy some niche of the game. first they came for the rat ai changes, mission flipping etc. etc.
i don't want my corp to completely give up bombing as real people in a fleet. we rarely do it now because we have isboxers to do it instead and it just feels like wasting 8 peoples time doing something less effective than 1 person. even those people who do the isboxing and regularly slam dunk fleets with them are complaining. it's not fun, it's not balanced. i thought this rebalance would change that, perhaps naively but i honestly didnt think ccp cared so much about their bottom line over everything else.
i don't know why i'm even in this thread tbh its not like anything i say matters but then again nothing we do on this earth truely matters might as well try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
315
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Posted - 2014.10.17 17:35:00 -
[509] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:I call BS. How many ISboxers do you think are paying for their subscriptions in cash vs how many PLEX via ISK? Makes absolutely no difference. People who pay via ISK make the PLEX->ISK exchange more attractive, and so increase real-world sales. Either way, CCP gets their money. If you didn't have ISBoxers buying PLEX off the in-game market, the price would crash (drastically, as PLEX would no longer be seen as a safe investment) and fewer people would want to plunk down $20 for 400 million ISK. |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
160
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 17:40:00 -
[510] - Quote
Capqu wrote: i don't know why i'm even in this thread tbh its not like anything i say matters but then again nothing we do on this earth truly matters might as well try
Capqu, let's see you grit those teeth
Listen up capqu, don't believe in yourself - believe in me. Believe in the Don who believes in you. He takes the hamfisted balance changes in his bare hands and endures the searing stupidity. A man's man sustained by strength of will. When you hear of the great Don, they're talking about me. Go beyond the bad metagame and kick bad reasoning to the kerb. That's how Love Squad rolls. Who the hell do you think I am? gay gamers for jesus |
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